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The 10,000 year old civilization which was more advanced than us

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posted on Nov, 21 2004 @ 01:48 PM
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I love to hear people say (But you would find all this stuff left). metal plastic etc, etc. you asume they would build sky scrapers like we do that they would develope plastic and computers and so much of the things we have now.

Look at your home, look around at every thing there. What in your house is going to be left 1000 years from now ? HOW about 10,000 years from now ? just 200 years from now 80% of every thing we have now will be gone never to be seen by human eyes again.

some people will never believe anything and at the same time believe every thing.




posted on Nov, 21 2004 @ 02:29 PM
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majick: I fixed the formatting on my post; sorry about that.

Byrd: I'm going to cut you and CaptainRon some slack here. I'm assuming CaptainRon is confusing Apollo and Helios, and that his confusion got you confused; in any case, the myth of Phaeton, the half-divine, half-human son of Helios and various other dieties (see Wikipedia on Phaeton, citing Robert Grave's Greek Myths), is pretty standard fare for Greek Mythology. In the myth, Helios's kid Phaeton wants to be like his dad, and asks to drive the chariot of the sun for a day; unfortunately, Helios lets his kid give it a try, but the chariot of the sun's too much for little ole Phaeton to control, and the chariot goes flying all over the place (and in my copy of D'Aulaires Greek myths, he crashes the chariot somewhere or other and burns to death).

I've also seen this myth cited as an explanation for the various races having their skins different colors -- where the chariot went too low, the skin got singed, burned, or whatever -- but I've never seen anyone give a cite for that myth being used for that explanation; if someone has that, I'd appreciate it, and if someone can show that that myth was never used for that purpose, I'd also appreciate it.

CaptainRon: The reason I cited that guy's review wasn't because I thought he was knowledgeable, but because he said something I thought makes sense and that I hadn't thought of before. Specifically, even if the book sounds like it's reasonably detailed and "could work" it doesn't mean that there was a well-developed scientific civilization at the time, or even that the author writing the book knew more about science than we moderners would think. I mean, if you knew only basic physics or basic science, the plans and layouts for Star Trek or Star Wars or whatever would certainly seem reasonable, and if something in them sounded unreasonable -- like the warp drives -- it'd be pretty easy to talk yourself into thinking "oh, hey, most of this looks right, so maybe the author knows some science I don't (or that we've lost)". It's a valid point -- some writer back in the day could have been writing about how the gods moved around and gotten carried away trying to imagine all the details of how it worked, and voila! today we might interpret that as a well-developed
science (even if it wasn't).

One more thing: i think the arguments about "where's all the evidence" are unfortunately pretty solid. If there was another technologically advanced civilization -- like, at or above our level -- it'd have to have been a lot longer ago (maybe 100,000 or more years) for all the traces to have disappeared like they have. Assuming that the human race was even around in something like its present form back then (I'm not an anthropologist so I just don't know) if we had a technological civilization 100,000 or more years ago it's not really going to be related to any of the civilizations we know about -- not the Mayas, Indians, Chinese, Olmecs, Greeks, or anyone else -- but unfortunately this kind of "totally unknown civilization vanishing without a trace and not really connected to any civlizationqs we know" isn't going to sell any books; what is going to sell books is something like "the sphinx is older than we think" or "india had a civilization 10k years ago" because claims like that -- whether real or totally groundless -- tie into things people know about or care about. A totally isolated ancient civilization unconnected to anything is something not many people care about; even quacks like Von Daniken make sure to tie in their claims about ancient history into things people today know about or care about -- like biblical history -- so that people will be interested enough in what he's saying to buy the book.

So, technologically advanced civilization 10000 years ago? Not likely; I would like to know where the motif of the culture-bringer arises from (Byrd or other experts on this board have any suggestions here?) but I doubt the culture-bringers were refugees from some techno-utopia Mu/Atlantis/Lemuria/Indus Valley/anything else. Ancient civilization 100,000 or more years ago? Probably not, but who knows?

One last thing, though: if someone's claiming they've found similarities between ancient Indian and ancient Mayan (I'll even expand this to ancient Meso and South-American) architecture, what similarities would they be likely to have found? Anyone know of anything similar between the two places? (I'm not saying I think there's Maya/India cross-pollination back in prehistory; I'm just curious what similarities someone might think they've run across). Anyone know?



posted on Nov, 21 2004 @ 06:05 PM
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Originally posted by soficrow
.Can someone PLEASE fix these margins? (please?
) This is a great discussion but it's killing me to read it....

What browser are you using and what screen resolution?


So Byrd, with or without 'technological advance,' consider that our predecessors may have been very wise, and educated in the ways of the world.

Actually, I probably give them a LOT more credit than most do. But I see no evidence in linguistics, art, etc, etc, etc that there was a "more advanced" civilization before the ones we see developing some 30,000 years ago.



They understood the 'enemy,' the dynamics of individual, social and cultural development, and worked with skill to better the human species.

They had no concept of "the human species" -- or so we judge from our studies of currently living civilizations (including the ones most removed from contact with our world, such as the Yanomamo.) There was only "us" and "them" and time and time and time again, we find that the people belonging to one group give themselves the name "humans" and give other people names like "big smelly things" or "cannibals from the north." They would work to better the "us" (the ones that they called human) and exterminate or minimize the impact of the "other."


I suspect you are focusing exclusively on the appropriated and pathogenic permutations of ancient traditions - not that these are not real, but a bit of 'mining' might find gold. Ie., Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Don't think so, but I can certainly be challenged. I know a fair bit about a number of topics.



posted on Nov, 21 2004 @ 06:14 PM
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Ron, I must not have been writing things clearly, because you missed my point. Sorry... sometimes I get caught up in nice long sentences. The result isn't always clear.


Originally posted by CaptainRon

There's just one starship-sized hole in this concept, though: it assumes that humans went from wandering around the landscape in groups, knapping flints to a non-detectable society that was suddenly advanced beyond anything seen before in the space of a heartbeat.

That, frankly, isn't believable.


Well in that case... ask ur grand dad (if alive yet) or else dad that what he was used to when he was 10 yr oldand what's the world like now, for him...? Even in our case its like the cave women...
Dude... timeline has been very long comprising of thousands of years!
what makes you think that out of 10,000 years this recent 100 years were all that man got civilised in


Well, I think that traces of civilization go back some 30,000 years or more (actually, I don't "think" this. I am using dates that the archaologists use.)

And I don't see any evidence that 90,000 years ago or 100,000 years ago or even 60,000 years ago that there was a civilization that went from stone age to our modern age and then collapsed.

I see no evidence that homo erectus (ancestor of homo sapiens) had a civilization that went from "hitting things with rocks" to "flying around the skies in aircraft", either.

That was my point.



posted on Nov, 21 2004 @ 06:14 PM
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Originally posted by sisonek


One last thing, though: if someone's claiming they've found similarities between ancient Indian and ancient Mayan (I'll even expand this to ancient Meso and South-American) architecture, what similarities would they be likely to have found? Anyone know of anything similar between the two places? (I'm not saying I think there's Maya/India cross-pollination back in prehistory; I'm just curious what similarities someone might think they've run across). Anyone know?


this site has a good smorgasboard of articles and essays, ranging in a wide spectrum of interesting correlations with Indus/vedic language & place root-names...linkages between phonecians & jews & arabs & mexico & statuary & water-farming...theres some hours of interesting data here: www.viewzone.com...

i started with 'Did ancient Hindus help write the bible'...'Who was Abraham?'

^^



posted on Nov, 21 2004 @ 06:33 PM
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Originally posted by sisonek
Byrd: I'm going to cut you and CaptainRon some slack here.

Good catch. It looked a bit fishy as I typed that, but I didn't stop to doublecheck myself. Haven't seen it cited as an explaination for skin colors -- as you yourself point out.



If there was another technologically advanced civilization -- like, at or above our level -- it'd have to have been a lot longer ago (maybe 100,000 or more years) for all the traces to have disappeared like they have.

Actually, they wouldn't have disappeared completely. And things like graveyards would certainly be there. We do find quite a bit of material from this time period (and the dominant species at the time was homo erectus; not homo sapiens.)



One last thing, though: if someone's claiming they've found similarities between ancient Indian and ancient Mayan (I'll even expand this to ancient Meso and South-American) architecture, what similarities would they be likely to have found? Anyone know of anything similar between the two places? (I'm not saying I think there's Maya/India cross-pollination back in prehistory; I'm just curious what similarities someone might think they've run across). Anyone know?

The ancient Indian civilizations would have been much older than the Mayan ones. The Olmec (precursors to the Mayans) arose about 3,000 BC; the time of the first Egyptian kingdoms. Mayan civilization wasn't on the rise until around 2600 BC and weren't really prominent until 250 BC. This is well within the historic period (actually so is 2600 BC -- written records from that time and earlier do exist.)

There are certainly towns and villages in India that date to 5,000 BC and earlier; the larger Indus civilization didn't really form until about 2600 BC.www.csuchico.edu...

But all of those are in the "literate" period when there were written records and there are good records of who the Hindus traded with.



posted on Nov, 21 2004 @ 08:30 PM
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Originally posted by Byrd

What browser are you using and what screen resolution?


Not my browzer - someone blew the margins and I have trouble tracking long lines of text. I'll live tho.


Actually, I probably give them a LOT more credit than most do.


Yes - I see that. Kudos.


But I see no evidence in linguistics, art, etc, etc, etc that there was a "more advanced" civilization before the ones we see developing some 30,000 years ago.


Agreed - but what if the advances were substantially different in kind? What if our mindset simply is not capable of recognizing them? Does that mean they do/did not exist?



They understood the 'enemy,' the dynamics of individual, social and cultural development, and worked with skill to better the human species.

They had no concept of "the human species" -- or so we judge from our studies of currently living civilizations.




I suspect you are focusing exclusively on the appropriated and pathogenic permutations of ancient traditions - not that these are not real, but a bit of 'mining' might find gold.

Don't think so, but I can certainly be challenged. I know a fair bit about a number of topics.


...I am not thinking of cultures but rather the travelling 'educators' of individuals and cultures - as evidenced by Sufi lore (Idries Shah variety) and the I Ching.

..It is a most important thing that humans are not born with knowledge and so, need to be educated - that a culture can be destabilized and reconstructed in a single generation, that catastrophes can destroy -totally- a society's 'intellectual inheritance.' ...I see works like the Sufis and Ching as methods to carry and convey such lost inheritance, and to correct cultural regression.

Ie., My sense is that societies like the Masons and Bilderbergs are rooted in truly ancient traditions - and so are the balances. Granted, popular wisdom says the Sufis and Ching originated not long ago. But it also says the concept of "zero" is quite recent. ...Even by popular calculations, the I Ching is at least 5,000 years old - yet it's based on a binary system (I figured that out around 1990, but later determined Descartes beat me to it. lol. Not that I'm a math genius.)

...I see the I Ching as a kind of manual computer device, which contains plans for a physical construction and much information on various cycles. Most important, in the I Ching, 'zero' is Yin, conceptually the empty and receptive, while Yang is the ever-growing potentially infinite - and both encompass the idea of infinity. ...These are incredibly important concepts... I can imagine a group of educated people facing cataclysm, and creating a 'tool' that would survive both geophysical and social upheaval, to carry the 'knowledge.'

...So then we get into evaluating Sufi tales and the legitimacy of my take on the I Ching. ...My 'work' in these areas was not comprehensive and ended 15-odd years ago, but if you want a go at it, I'm in...

FYI - Pictograms are the last remaining evidence of an ancient culture that lost its literacy when its youth came to rely solely on computer icons, and which then devolved to become the platypus...




.
[edit on 21-11-2004 by soficrow]
tinkered for clarity and to lose that big gap

[edit on 22-11-2004 by soficrow]



posted on Nov, 22 2004 @ 03:54 AM
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man has risen/fell into animal generation as explained in many holy books;

due to your perception of time; the past "humans" were more spiritually "intune" : thus more capabilities and interactions with god.

i would gander that the notion that the past is more "advanced" than us now is not true. we are just in a different age.



posted on Nov, 22 2004 @ 12:18 PM
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Hey, I m not at all talking about a civilization that existed years back, and all we know about them is that they existed...(of course then why bother talking about it)
rather what i am talking about is a civilization that not only existed but left back a lot for us! They did document lots of stuff... and we could learn a lot from it... the only case being if we were properly able to decipher the elements and alloys being talked about.

See, I would just like to quote two really simple examples of tech advancement atleast in something other than physics, chem etc.

If you see the ancient Medical Science.... the Ayurveda, on todays date we can only partially understand what ayurveda is trying to tell us and even after that we have ayurvedic medicines that can cure maximum diseases, and rather at times much faster and better than the alopathic medicines. Ayurvedic medicines are known for their effectives world wide, the only reason for their less use is its cost. Since the jadi-booti (the plants from which its made) are found mostly in the himalayas. Ayurved is known to cure extremely potent diseases with startling results (asthama for instance).
Can anyone tell me how could the rishi's could make such medicines without having advanced chemical and pharmaceutical knowledge?

The best example of all is the Science of Yoga...
Never in history, a physical training has existed as effective and powerful as Yoga, its well known and if u wanna know what yoga does u can search the net.
Laghima ( the art of levitating ) also comes from here.

Plus I may not want to skip the mathematics in India... I dun think without Aryabhatta, math could ever evolve as early as it did. Once again i may not need to tell who aryabhatta was and were his contributions to mathematics (starting with value of Zero, then the value of Pie, solving quardratic equations etc.) He is know as the father of mathematics of recent times. And most of all, the Todays used math standard of decimal system came from india...

If things could have worked in recent times... why couldn't have there been something earlier?



posted on Nov, 22 2004 @ 12:49 PM
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Originally posted by CaptainRon
I would like to point out some facts:
(90% of all this comes from the Ancient Indian Scriptures)

You are aware however that there is a non-existent passage fraudulently attributed to vedic scriptures that pertains to this issue tho right?


There were 7 "Rishi" cities on this planet during the Rama Empire i.e. around 10,000 years back.

Archaeological evidence exists from 10,000 years ago. None of it indicates globe spanning advanced urban empires


These cities naturally included that of Mohan Jodaro, Harrappa,

'Mohenjo Daro' i beleive. Neither of those two cities existed 10,000 years ago, and when they did exist they were 'primitive' cities made out of mud clay bricks and the like, not made out of materials and technology more advanced than today.



The Mohan Jodaro was much more well planned than 95% cities in pakistan and india as of today.

No it wasn't. Mohenjo daro and harrapa were merely a conglomeration of streets with brick buildings on them and a central citadel with a temple complex on it. There is nothing particularly, and certainly not 'unusually' well planned about that. Infact, having a city on a fortified hilltop next to a river is positively pedestrian for this early period, which, again, wasn't 10,000 years ago.


We have the old scriptures still with us

Vedic scripture is still, from what i understand, fantasically under translated, nevertheless how does the description differ from anything anyone in the conventional picture of that world would know? Explosions and being chared? Things flying around in the sky? Nothing particularly helpful there.


Aviation technology is some of the most well explained scientific developments of the earlier times.

And yet one doesn't find evidence of the hundreds of power plants, ore processing facilities, mines, factories, manufacturing plants, smelting plants, and heck even the universities and trade schools required to dream this technology up in the first place.

You even find diagrams and procedure on how to make an aeroplane that would be propelled by "Anti-Gravity".

Merely because someone thinks thats what some drawings are hardly makes them thus. Also, if these technologies were present, and preserved accurately in their writtings, then, even after a nuke war, (which somehow hasn't left any evidence for its occurance) the people back then would've been able to rebuild.

EVentually what happens is that the science is long forgotten

Why would it be forgotten? People aren't going to go back to pre-agricultural techniques for thousands of years just because there was a nuclear war. No matter what there will still be some cities and towns and places where there wasn't destruction, and even places where there wasn't total destruction. There'd be something left, and there'd be enough to have some basic technology, not the practically stone age technology of 10,000 years ago.


and those few who retain it, are known as black magicians, sorcerrors and

But these magicians don't have advanced technology.



A truth that has been well documented in sanskrit text

Why would these scientists record their advanced technologies in vague, inacurate, poetic texts? Where are the diagrams explaining the relationship between thrust and mass and fuel efficiences and the like, the technical information that they'd be wanted to record?


scriptures.
Just imagine how could a 5000 year old scripture describe accurately the present day rocket

as: "A craft that flew on a ray of light (jet engine) and made the sound of a thunder"
I think the thing to keep in mind here is that the vedic scriptures have extremely controversial translations, and, agian, there are fraudulent texts being ported about as if they came from these scriptures. Does this line, for example literally translate as that, or could it be talking about a god of lightening and thunder, for example?



Davenport claimed to

have proof that Mohenjo Daro, one of the oldest cities in the history of human civilization,

had been destroyed by an atomic bomb. Davenport shows that the ruined site known as the

place of death by archaeologists was not formed by gradual decay.

Originally Mohenjo Daro, which is more than 5000 years old, lay on two islands in the Indus.

Within a radius of 1.5 km Davenport demonstrates three different degrees of devastation

which spread from the center outwards. Enormous heat unleashed total destruction at the

center. Thousands of lumps, christened black stones by archaeologists, turned out to be

fragments of clay vessels which had melted into each other in the extreme heat.

And how is any of this evidence different from a fire of anykind?


as if the living had been suddenly overcome by an

unexpected catastrophe.

sure, but a nuclear one?

there can be no research by enlarged teams with physicists, chemists, metallurgists, etc.

So you are saying that there isn't any evidence for this sort of stuff. If there were a nuke explosion, I'd have to say that a city made out of clay bricks is going to very more extensively damaged than mohenjo daro or harrapan. Besides which, there should be isotopic evidence of nuclear detonation.


the WTC were reduced down to a pile of dust by two airliners...

The world trade center was reduced to an enourmous pile of concrete (which has to be engineered), and technologicall advanced steel and other metals, not to mention the clothing, plastics, breifcases, and everything else belonging to the people inside of it.

a nuclear winter will last for years

Nuclear winter is an entirely theoretical consideration, and certainly isn't goin to happen because a mere seven cities have been nuked. Also, if it occured, then where is the evidence for the massive crop die off then? Or a layer of radionuclides and ash across the entire globe?

There is a tendency of the west to disregard anything that over shadows their ego.

Apparently there is also a tendency to make up stuff about grand ancestors. There is simply nothing in the archaeological records to justify any of this.

I have grown up learning that the scriptures that I have been reading have been written as long as 10,000 years back!

And somehow there is just no evidence of writting from that era. The only writting from harrapan and mohenjo daro are extremely 'primitive' pictograms, nothing like sanskrit. Infact, they aren't even thought to be sanskrit or a sanskrit precursor, but rather an elamo-dravidian language, not a indo-european one like sanskrit.


chakotay
But what will remain of those iron ships in 11,000 years

Probably about as much as remians from bone and other archaeological artefacts from 11,000 years ago. Its not like there is just some big 'blank' on the archaeological record for those times.


www.thewjc.org...
I am not going to discuss Einstein's theories since science is not my strong suit.

I don't think that this guy is going to be much of an authority for what einsteins inspirations were then no?

the accuracy of dating methods are being called into account now


I don't think that all the archaeological sites have radiometric dates to them. And what are the specific instances that you had trouble getting reliable radiometric data? Were far too recent samples used, or were good samples sent in with completely different 'ballpark dates' and then you got those ballpark dates? Also, if radiometric dating is totally unreliable, then there wouldn't be agreement between methods, and there wouldn't be any sort of systematic relationships between sites. The only way to get the current 'system' then with unrelaible radiometric data, would be for some sort of conspiracy to be controlling it all.

cap ron
I don't believe that anything would have been left of Hiroshima or Nagasaki if it was left as it is for another 200 years... you wouldn't see a single darn sign that anything existed

Then why does one see anything left from harrapa and mohenjo daro? And making them thousands of years older than they actually were only increases this problem.

Can anyone explain me how could the people existing 1000s of years back having 'no scientific knowledge' could describe the effects of a Nuclear explosion?

But they don't do that. They don't talk about radionuclides, radiation, or any of that. What you have is people talking about an explosion and people charred. Nothing about that says nuke attack more than 'fire'.

Not being able to find its traces is not an excuse... can i have an intelligent reason?

Not being able to find traces of it is the only reason to think that they were advanced, notice, weren't advnaced, not that they were incapable of thinking. There is no evidence for the massive world system that would be required to make anyof this. There is evidence of small tribes living in extremely primtive 'cities' 10-11000 years ago, and, again, harrapan and mohenjo-daro aren't one of them. Those are much more advanced cities that existed thousands of years later.
[qote]The author/editor provides us with a translation of ancient texts from India

Unacceptable. Where are the actual primary sources for these claims. Supposed translations supposedly demonstrating something are useless. Where are the actual original texts that this author was refering to?

what makes you think that out of 10,000 years this recent 100 years were all that man got civilised in.

He is saying that, even now, there is a progression from one technology to another. Even this modern world with its rapid pace of technological advancement came out of a less advanced world, whereas the insertion of a super advanced society into 10,000 years ago requires an instant jump from complete 'savagery' into futuristic technology, far beyond anything that is reasonable to suppose.

Can anyone tell me how could the rishi's could make such medicines without having advanced chemical and pharmaceutical knowledge?

Probably the same way cultures all over the world have done it. One doesn't need to know the chemical structure of the various compounds in a plant to know that it will have one affect or the other.

Laghima ( the art of levitating ) also comes from here

And yet, people can't levitate.



posted on Nov, 22 2004 @ 10:12 PM
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Originally posted by Arkaleus
The events surrounding the "nuclear war" sound suspiciously like airbursts from comets or meteorites. They explode with the force of several megatons, more than enough to vaporize cities. Take for example the Tunguska blast of 1908. It could easily have been written of in the Vedas as the "fiery bolts of Shiva decimating cities and men," or other such manifestations of deity. Food for thought.


Excellent thesis! Bravo!! The reference to 'iron arrows' could be found meteorite fragments. Very well said!



posted on Nov, 23 2004 @ 07:39 AM
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Originally posted by Arkaleus/Chakotay
The reference to 'iron arrows' could be found meteorite fragments.


...Great points everyone.


True, the conflagrations could be meteors, but the opposite also could be true. Consider the following news release:

Using orbital imaging radar, scientists have discovered the largest impact crater field ever found on Earth. It's composed of 13 craters created by simultaneous impacts. The field is still partially buried beneath the sands of the southwestern Egyptian desert, and is dated to 50 million years ago. Impact craters are rarely found on the earth's surface, due to multiple and different erosion processes.



dsc.discovery.com...

An international team of scientists has discovered the largest impact crater field ever found on Earth, uncovering the first evidence that the planet suffered from simultaneous meteor impacts in the recent past.

It could have been created by the fragmentation of several meteorites that encountered the Earth atmosphere. ..."The impact origin is confirmed by the observation of shock-related structures, such as shatter cones and planar fractures in quartz grains of breccia," the researchers wrote in a paper published in the journal C.R. Geoscience.

Paillou estimated that the field is roughly 50 million years old relatively young in geological terms. Most of all, it is the result of simultaneous impacts. (13 craters) ...Spreading over 4,500 square kilometers (1,750 square miles) near the Gilf Kebir plateau, the craters are up to 80 meters (260 feet) deep and vary in diameter from 20 meters (66 feet) to 12.5 kilometers (7.8 miles) across.

... Only nine impact fields are actually known on Earth. ..."All known crater fields on Earth do not extend over more than 60 square kilometers (23 square miles) and can all be explained by the breakup of a single meteorite," Paillou and colleagues wrote.

"Impacts fields are quite rare on Earth due to the important, different and multiple erosion processes occurring on the Earth surface," said Heggy.


There is no doubt that the earth is vulnerable to meteors striking the planet's surface - or that such impacts would cause this kind of damage.

However, WMD's also cause this kind of destruction. Can scientists really confirm absolutely, 50 million years later, exactly what kind of missile created these craters?

All the world's traditions are rife with stories of advanced civilizations, chimeras and the like, and warnings about cycles of advancement and destruction. ...If these stories originate from a 'super civilization' that dates back 50 million years, we have no way to place them in an accurate timeframe - and no pysical evidence to confirm or deny the possiblity.

...We assume that archeological evidence is (relatively) complete - despite the fact that each decade routinely brings radical changes and modifications to evolutionary history. We also assume it is simply impossible that technologically advanced human history could date back that far - but could these assumptions not be the product of ignorant bias?

Perhaps, if we acknowledged the possibility, then the consequences of human action might be better understood, and appropriate caution would follow.

Comments?


.



posted on Nov, 25 2004 @ 07:31 PM
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.
.
.
Okay fine. I feel like I farted at a party. Feel free to ignore me and continue. But FYI - I am well aware that humans were not 'in existence' 50 million years ago. ...I also was taught in Grade school that the world formed maybe a million years ago, that there was only one ice age, and that no one would remove oil, gas and water from under the earth if it could have a bad effect.


xoxoxox


.



posted on Nov, 25 2004 @ 08:31 PM
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So where is the evidence of radiation or steel which doesn't simply just disapear overtime. We have been able to find clay pots, arrowheads, and bows dating 10,000-20,000 years ago, are we to assume that everything this ancient and far superior society had vanished as they were completly nuked? If so, then they must have been attacked by another far superior civilization, so what happend to them? Why did nobody bother to progress upon their work when they vanished?



posted on Nov, 25 2004 @ 09:06 PM
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Originally posted by soficrow

Originally posted by Arkaleus/Chakotay
The reference to 'iron arrows' could be found meteorite fragments.


...Great points everyone.


True, the conflagrations could be meteors, but the opposite also could be true. Consider the following news release:

Using orbital imaging radar, scientists have discovered the largest impact crater field ever found on Earth. It's composed of 13 craters created by simultaneous impacts. The field is still partially buried beneath the sands of the southwestern Egyptian desert, and is dated to 50 million years ago. Impact craters are rarely found on the earth's surface, due to multiple and different erosion processes.



dsc.discovery.com...

An international team of scientists has discovered the largest impact crater field ever found on Earth, uncovering the first evidence that the planet suffered from simultaneous meteor impacts in the recent past.

It could have been created by the fragmentation of several meteorites that encountered the Earth atmosphere. ..."The impact origin is confirmed by the observation of shock-related structures, such as shatter cones and planar fractures in quartz grains of breccia," the researchers wrote in a paper published in the journal C.R. Geoscience.

Paillou estimated that the field is roughly 50 million years old relatively young in geological terms. Most of all, it is the result of simultaneous impacts. (13 craters) ...Spreading over 4,500 square kilometers (1,750 square miles) near the Gilf Kebir plateau, the craters are up to 80 meters (260 feet) deep and vary in diameter from 20 meters (66 feet) to 12.5 kilometers (7.8 miles) across.

... Only nine impact fields are actually known on Earth. ..."All known crater fields on Earth do not extend over more than 60 square kilometers (23 square miles) and can all be explained by the breakup of a single meteorite," Paillou and colleagues wrote.

"Impacts fields are quite rare on Earth due to the important, different and multiple erosion processes occurring on the Earth surface," said Heggy.


There is no doubt that the earth is vulnerable to meteors striking the planet's surface - or that such impacts would cause this kind of damage.

However, WMD's also cause this kind of destruction. Can scientists really confirm absolutely, 50 million years later, exactly what kind of missile created these craters?

All the world's traditions are rife with stories of advanced civilizations, chimeras and the like, and warnings about cycles of advancement and destruction. ...If these stories originate from a 'super civilization' that dates back 50 million years, we have no way to place them in an accurate timeframe - and no pysical evidence to confirm or deny the possiblity.

...We assume that archeological evidence is (relatively) complete - despite the fact that each decade routinely brings radical changes and modifications to evolutionary history. We also assume it is simply impossible that technologically advanced human history could date back that far - but could these assumptions not be the product of ignorant bias?

Perhaps, if we acknowledged the possibility, then the consequences of human action might be better understood, and appropriate caution would follow.

Comments?


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But FYI - I am well aware that humans were not 'in existence' 50 million years ago. ...I also was taught in Grade school that the world formed maybe a million years ago, that there was only one ice age, and that no one would remove oil, gas and water from under the earth if it could have a bad effect.

Eeek! You need to go back and have those science teachers fired! Earth is six billion (not million) years old, actually. There've been multiple ice ages. But you're right that humans weren't in existence 50 million years ago. The first of the hominid "homo" species appeared a little over 2 million years ago (homo habilis.)




So where is the evidence of radiation or steel which doesn't simply just disapear overtime. We have been able to find clay pots, arrowheads, and bows dating 10,000-20,000 years ago, are we to assume that everything this ancient and far superior society had vanished as they were completly nuked? If so, then they must have been attacked by another far superior civilization, so what happend to them? Why did nobody bother to progress upon their work when they vanished?

Good questions... and by the way, we recover artifacts that are over 30,000 years old and stone tools that are over 4 million years old.



posted on Nov, 25 2004 @ 10:04 PM
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Originally posted by Byrd

Eeek! You need to go back and have those science teachers fired! Earth is six billion (not million) years old, actually. There've been multiple ice ages. But you're right that humans weren't in existence 50 million years ago. The first of the hominid "homo" species appeared a little over 2 million years ago (homo habilis.)



Ahem. ...My point was that we keep discovering new things, finding more information and hopefully, rethinking our premises.

I'm old Byrd - when I was in school the info was fairly current - and most of my teachers are dead now so they don't need to be fired. The big question back then was which calculation is most accurate - 5,032 or 5,230 - based on the Bible's history in Genesis for the date of the earth's creation. It was radical to even suggest 1 million. To assert billions would have been grounds for hangin.

...FYI - Last time I studied ice ages, publicly available sources said there are 6 ice age cycles at staggered times, which converge about every 2 million years - oddly, this info has now disappeared.

...Re: my ridiculous suggestion that humanity/the earth could have suffered a nuclear conflagration 50 million years ago. I confess. I have this thing about Doris Lessing and "The Canopus in Argos" series. One of those extended metaphors that is not, really, a metaphor. Brilliant. ...and a bit seductive. lol

It's an interesting mental excercise to change one's conception of time and human history. ...Fundamentalists haven't changed - the Bible pegs the earth and human history at about 5000 years, so this is what many people believe. But what if? ...What if - humanity has risen and fallen again and again? What if - our concept of civilization is so narrow we cannot recognize the signs of 'other,' even with the tools of science? What if - evolution is not linear? What if human consciousness and intelligence did not arise with homo habilis but rather, originated with an earlier ancestor that is not recognizably human? What if - humankind as we know it is some weird hybrid between biology and energy, and the other's history is our own?

oh dear. it's past my bedtime. But I'll leave you with this thought: sometimes fantastic assertions are bridges, camouflaged.


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posted on Nov, 27 2004 @ 08:38 PM
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I've not read the whole thread, I've seen a few references to the Mayans, but I don?t think anyone has touched on this. It may seem to go a little off topic at first but bear with me.

As many of you probably know, the Mayans believed that our planet operates in cycles, so does our solar system and this is moving into alignment with the central sun Alcione, into a photon belt. Some info on the photon belt:


What does the photon belt consist of? What will be its effects on the life on our planet, positive or negative? Also what is its purpose, if any? The radio announcement used the term 'electromagnetic' to describe the phenomenon--this is the same as photon, which is a particle of light or electromagnetic radiation.

The photon belt is an immense region of space which is radiating intense electromagnetic radiation throughout the visible spectrum and beyond, into high-frequency invisible light; even including some x-ray spectra. It is part of a magnetic flow of light throughout the galaxy. Reference has already been made through the media to huge increases in intensity of 'dangerous' radiation entering through the holes in the ozone layer in certain regions of our planet.

It appears that for mankind on this planet the photon belt encounter will be essentially a spiritual experience--but this really depends on man. Nevertheless, the real benefits of this phenomenon is from what is actually causing the photons. It is linked with the so-called convergences. If we are sufficiently evolved at the time, great advancements will occur in our consciousness as we attune to the higher-frequencies. If we are negative, that is, possess too many lower vibrations, the result of selfish actions, we are not expected to survive the frequency incompatibility.

Continued @ www.users.globalnet.co.uk...


The Mayans, Greeks and Romans all prophicised the as the 'Golden Age', where humans would become like god, due to the effects of the photon belts electromagnetic radiation on our DNA, for example our DNA 12/13 strand potential may be fulfilled. It will be a spiritual experience. More Info:
Can be found at:
www.2012.com.au... and
www.2012.com.au...

Oh the date for this ascension is 21/12/2012, which totals to 11 (using all 3 methods), for the numerologists among us. We spend approximately 10,500 years in the dark age before going into the 4th dimension, and we are very close to the end of this period, which may explain why this civilisation seem 10,000 years old.

Anyway, so when we enter this photon belt, there will be 2000 years of divine light and there will be total peace, but after the 2000 years is up we will leave the photon belt and return to the Dark Age, which we are currently in and are about to exit. When we enter the photon belt,
The effects on the Earth's body are expected to be quite dramatic. The photon belt enables the planet to repair her. She will, for example, protect her oil. Too much is being drawn off by man and cannot all be replaced--not dissimilar to drawing off man's cerebral spinal fluid. Mother Earth will harden the crust under the surface and pull in the oil, also gases, coal and ores, deeper into the centre, shifting harmlessly also benevolent races into protected regions. Everything that is not natural will also cease to exist.

This brings me onto my point. Perhaps this Mayan prophecy is true. Perhaps there have been many, many civilisations before our own. Maybe some of them destroyed themselves, maybe some of them passed into the photon belt and emigrated to the 4th dimension, evolving and leaving the planet. This may explain why the only evidence we find of ancient civilisations is in stone. For explain the pyramids my have been built 1000's of years ago by a different civilisation.

Anyway, if you believe in this, let?s hope the human race is around for another 8 years and something amazing might happen.



posted on Nov, 27 2004 @ 10:38 PM
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to heck wit da war. I belive they were more advanced than us now back in the day, but a global flood as Noahs ark would have completely wiped out everything. just think about it folks...



posted on Nov, 28 2004 @ 03:09 AM
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Just think about this if you take our society with all the technological advances every thing we have to day that makes our lives so easy. NOW Kill off 90% of the population.
WHAT WOULD HAPPEN?

There is a prime example in Egypt Look at the Pyramids do you know that the oldest ones are the best built, and as the years passed they got worse and worse at building them till they didnt build then any more. The last pyramids that where built are piles of rubble. And what happened to the nice cover stones from the oldest pyramids? Oh thats right they got RIPED off and used for other things.

Lets see you have an advanced society that can build REALLY large stone structures with an accuracy that we cannot match today. Something happens and 90% of the population dies whats left tries to carry on the knowledge but just surviving uses up so much of there time the old stuff just gets lost and changed into old MYTHS. Then of course you have Wars that burn and pillage every thing in their wake and more is lost, soon your back in the Stone Age.

Why dont we find really nice things? Lets see could it be because Humans are SCAVENGERS and reuse every thing and any thing they can. Why dig a hole in the ground dig up rocks, smelt it ect, when you can just rip apart something and reforge it.

I dont know but that sounds pretty accurate and or plausible to me.



every thing you think is true is just a lie no one has found out about yet



posted on Dec, 2 2004 @ 10:19 PM
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well i agree with Ron,
what ever may be the arguments, one thing we cant deny is that the vast ancient "science" (which we now deny that it was just a "fantasy") was far more advance !! If you think about that then how can we justify ourself in front of the advance sciences of:
- aryuvedas
- astrology of ancient times
- sun clocks ( with accuracies upto 1 sec) (its in india, i think in Rajasthan, some western part of India !!)
- science of surgery ( chikitsa)


there are so many noticable theories that our present scientist have not even reached closer to that. Even the proofs that there was a far advance mathematics , completely different than the conventional methods available exists, ( could be searched under "vedic mathematics") that included even trigonometry and calculus (which were called "purvas" eg. ekanekpurva was the mathematics of recurring numbers !!)

I read somewhere in this post that why did anyone not find the plastic and other stuffs?? Now , i dont know why r u guys giving sooo much importance to plastics?? is its soo important?? may be they might not find that important enough to find it !! and since 10000yrs can u imagine what changes the earth might have gone through? how many calamities it might have experienced? And what about the plectonic changes and fossilizations.... i think its just imposssible to find out the strong evidences.. really... but we have scripts which says that they exist.. so i think whats wrong in believing that...

now imagine a situation that we experince a nuclear war and about 70% population died (some immideately died and some eventually) then what will rest of the population left out do?? will run in the country side to have their safe hands ,,r8 ? means will run away and escape in forest (to be safe from radiation,,,, thinking they are away from major danger !!). now how can this 30 % population cant be all scientists or all specialized person? means the majority will be normal people. so what will they do to transfer and convey the knowledge to their projeny?? i mean if they want to say that we had rockets and computers, how will they show them?? they will either draw or write them... r8 ! they can not write a technical details of that coz it was not their field ! r8.. so i think and i believe that our ancestors had a real advance technology, may be more pure technology. probable they might have developed only a eco friendly technology !!





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