Chakotay says:

"As for looking at Nagasaki, try looking at Rongelap Atoll instead. The toys used in Japan are an order of magnitude less powerful than thermonuclear bombs. Rongelap simply disappeared. Radionuclides decay. And the ancients may have been using a different technology that would leave very little long-term radioactivity"

I grew up in the Marshalls and Caroline Islands, living in Micronesia until I was 17. I also scuba dive fairly regularly and know that Rongelap, Eniwetok, and Bikini are now major dive spots where we can actually dive the wrecke of the American ships which were within 500 meters of ground zero.

And radionucleides decay, all right, but any nuclear explosion leaves isotopes hanging around some of which have half-lives measured in thousands of years.

Finally, if there were a nuclear explosion, the effect of the explosion on things like rocks would provide a very long-term record of the incident. remember, it is in India that we still see, 65 million years later, the volcanic deformation of the Deccan Traps, a volcanic epoch which may have been triggered by the Chicxulub Strike in Yucatan.

[edit on 19-11-2004 by Off_The_Street]

Chakotay: do you have a source / citation for Einstein studying/being inspired by the kabbalah etc.? I'm asking because I've read several biographies and don't remember that being mentioned in any of them.

In any case: following the links got me here (on the steven knapp page):

From the Deccan Chronicle

HYDERABAD, INDIA, April 29, 2002: Recent studies suggests a link between Indus Valley and Mayans of Central America. The studies focused on the calendars of the two advanced civilizations. The Indus Valley inhabitants followed a calender based on the movements of Jupiter, and the Mayans followed one based on the Venus. In the Puranas, a secondary Hindu scripture, Jupiter, Brihaspati, was acknowledged to be the leader of the gods, while Venus, Shukra, was the leader of the asuras. The texts further state that the devas and asuras lived on opposite sides of the Earth. Mexico and India are at opposite sides in longitude. The correspondences were pointed out by B. G. Siddarth, director of the B. M. Birla Science Centre in Hyderabad. He also said the Hindu story of the churning of the ocean has been found in carvings in Mexico, as well Mayan representations of a tortoise carrying twelve pillars similar to Indian illustrations. Dr. Ganapati Sthapati of Chennai, a foremost expert on Vastu Shatra, the ancient Hindu architecture, has visited the Mayan structures in Central America and found many similarities between the design and construction methods of the Mayans and that of the ancient Hindus

Let's assume for a second this isn't total bs; I'd be curious to know what (if anything) are the similarities Ganapati Sthapati is claiming between ancient Indian and Mayan architecture. Do any of the experts on the board have any guess what connections this guy is thinking he's found? (I'm hoping it's not "stone walls"...) Is there anything in Mayan architecture that it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to say resembles Indian architecture from around that time period?

I'm already skeptical b/c the time periods aren't lining up. experts?

where can i find a copy of the sanskrit anti-gravity book? is there any other proof you can give other than the links that you have already posted? I'm at the middle of the road on this-- i don't believe it actually but there are still alot of things that need to be explained... ex... the glass that supposedly was the result of a nuclear blast

Chakotay says:

"But what will remain of those iron ships in 11,000 years?"

That's a good question. I know that we are finding remnants of biremes sunk in the Mediterranean over two thousand years ago. Glass from the portholes, china, some coins -- there are alot of things that seem capable of lasting for a long time in or out of water.

And here's one that none of the Atlantis-boys have thought of: Rebar. Metal reinforced concrete should last for tens of thousands of years, simply because the iron is actually encapsulated in "rock" (concrete). Yet we've never found any such. Why not?

"Antimatter assisted fusion would not leave the decay products you are familiar with."

Yes, but now you're making a further assumption -- that these guys existed and now they came up with something that's only theoretically possible.

Remember Occam's Razor, Chakotay!

"The Ancient War could have taken place more than 11,000 thousand years B.C.E. for all we know- if it ever happened at all."

Sure, it could have. But if you go back even further you start to contradict tons and tons of evidence about Homo sapiens sapiens existing before they came on the scene in Europe.

"Rongelap was a fallout target, not ground zero. Bikini Atoll was Ground Zero: Three Islands were vaporized during the nuclear tests: Bokonijien, Aerokojlol, and Nam."

Marshallese legends talk of the two brothers, Rongerik and Rongelap, who pulled the atolls up from the sea using a fish-hook made from a huge tortoise shell.

I lived on Majuro as a little kid, and visited Arno, Likiep, and Kwajalein Atolls-- but never Bikini or Eniwetok.

"BTW, aren't the Marshalls part of the ancient Hindu Pacific?"

Not that I know of. There is certainly no commonality of legends or linguistics of which I'm aware. Marshallese is one of seven (or eight depending on whether you count Mortlockese as a separate language) malay dialects in what was then the Trust Territory of the Pacific Islands and is now the Republic of theMarshall Islands, Federated States of Micronesia, and the Republic of Belau (or Palau as it used to be called).

And, unfortunately, I have never dived in Bikini or Eniwetok; I have friends who have. However, my wife and I are planning on going to Truk and Majuro in 2006 -- if senility hasn't set in -- and do some diving then.

Gentlemen:

Take one look at the surfaces of the other worlds in this solar system. Did you think we lived in a safe, stable place? There are constant destructions and cataclysms brought to whole worlds, Mars is a perfect example of this. it was totally destroyed, and made into an extinct world.

many of you have cited the Timaeus from Plato's Dialogues. The tale related by Solon to the Greeks is of very great importance. The Egyptians told Solon that the Greek historians were little more than children, and their tale of the world-wide flood that marked the beginning of their history was merely the latest in a very long cycle of global cataclysms. Some, they said, came from fire, others water. Many others were minor in nature.

It is rather naive of us to assume that earth, and earth only, does not bear the marks of the violence of this solar system. Her face hides many things because of the action of water and waves, but you need but look at the fossil record to see that life has endured many great calamities, even to the point of removing most of the living creatures from the planet.

The point is that the ancients recognized the CYCLIC nature of these destructions. The tales and myths that you have written about here come from the dramatizations of these histories passed down through the generations of this current epoch. It is true what many of you suspect: There WAS advanced civilization on this earth before. How advanced? I think it safe to say that they did not achieve space travel, or at least to the point of leaving artifacts that are visible on other worlds. They left no traces of an advanced industrial society. The patterns of mining and mineral processing on the surface would also give us the impression that there NEVER has been an industrial global society on this world before, because such a thing would require a similar level of material processing and manufacture to support. I think that mankind has become widespread many times before in the past, but never attaining the degree of technical mastery as ours has done.


The events surrounding the "nuclear war" sound suspiciously like airbursts from comets or meteorites. They explode with the force of several megatons, more than enough to vaporize cities. Take for example the Tunguska blast of 1908. It could easily have been written of in the Vedas as the "fiery bolts of Shiva decimating cities and men," or other such manifestations of deity.

In truth, I believe the histories to contain highly stylized renderings of historical events. In fact, Solon relates this interpretation to us from the Egyptians, who said the same things themselves of the histories the Greeks maintained. One of the more curious passages in the Timaeus is where Solon relates the story of the time when a lesser god took the chariot of Apollo without the God's permission, and being unable to control the horses path, caused the sun to descend too close to the earth, burning it up and making the sun move around strangely in the sky. The Egyptian priest said clearly that this story was not the doing of any such god, but was actually an event where the heavens changed their declination in the sky, which would indicate a sudden movement of the earth about it's axis.

I have speculated that these types of movements are actually quite common, and they result in massive floods and tidal waves inundating the entire globe. The last time this happened was the end of the last era of civilization, and from this we get the common stories of the flood which are common to all major cultures.

It is probably going to happen again. And we can be sure of other types of disasters, such as impacts. Just look at the number of craters in the solar system. It is a common and regular thing.

Food for thought.

Originally posted by CaptainRon
And thats how most of them turn it down.

This has been an attitude not only by you, but maximum out there.
I hate to say this, but the WTC were reduced down to a pile of dust by two airliners...

What would have remained out of them even after 1000 years?

No scripture is written "IN HAND" for no reason. You believe in Bible don't you? You believe in Jesus don't you? Would you disregard his existence and power just because you have no visual proof remaining?

Well... as I say... its mind set. We believe that technological advancement has been linear.

Now if in 500 years we could develop so much... they existed centuries back.

And yes about the Mr. Scientist... a nuclear winter will last for years!!! Its unlikely he will come out of his hiding place soon to do any kind of show biz work apart from filling his stomach.

[edit on 19-11-2004 by CaptainRon]

By two airliners? I think not.. there were explosives inside the building.. remember the "OTHER OTHER" explosion? ..

Thank you for your kind words, Chakotay. I have learned a LOT from debating everyone (and come up with some stuff that startles the profs.) I(my poor profs!)

Originally posted by Chakotay
Now this I don't want you to take on my word either. Einstein lived in two worlds, one very private and one very public.

Agreed, and certainly agreed on his lifelong interest in Zionism.

However, I see no sources anywhere (credible ones) that show his interest in the Qabbala. Furthermore, I think his approach to science and physics is rather different than the mystic's approach. Those with a more mystical bent to their researches will tend to write about it in journals or document it in letters to friends, talking about how their findings fit in with the picture of the universe as they see it.

This would have been easily accessible material, coming to light after his death. I don't see any indication of this, though I could be persuaded elsewhere by something with good documentation and provenance.

Back to topic, I see these legends of a former civilization to be a great inspiration to many cultures, spurring development of our modern world.

As do I -- but I ALSO see them as something too often used to justify cultural imperialism and the dominance of one culture over the others. The old ways were good back then, but they never had to deal with the issues that we do in the here and now.

I think we need new legends that show us the way forward and not the old tired one of "Well, things get out of hand and man was just playing god and everything went *KABOOM!*" I think we can do far better than that. Other leaps in technology didn't wipe us out.

And that, to my mind is the disservice that the religious stories give. They say "leave things at the status quo" (if we did, we'd still be stoning people suspected of adultery and keeping slaves.) They say "progress is evil and if you put technology in the hands of us shaved monkeys, we'll just destroy the world."

I think we need a new paradigm. The "Star Trek" one works for me, BTW -- that new technologies take us out and forward and that we change as our society changes and we don't manage to destroy ourselves, our planet, or anything else in the process.

I, too would appreciate a reference to the original source text for the Legend of the Vimana- I believe it was first written in the late 19th to early 20th century. But I am not sure.

That would be the "flying manual" and you're right. I did look up the references and the book was written in the 1950's. I did some extended research on "vimanas" and found that it's just another name for a temple roof and according to what's written, the demons were simply flying around by levitating roofs.

I saw no mention of fuel or other things in the original texts. (disclaimer: I don't read Hindu.)

Originally posted by Arkaleus
It is true what many of you suspect: There WAS advanced civilization on this earth before. How advanced? I think it safe to say that they did not achieve space travel, or at least to the point of leaving artifacts that are visible on other worlds. They left no traces of an advanced industrial society.

There's just one starship-sized hole in this concept, though: it assumes that humans went from wandering around the landscape in groups, knapping flints to a non-detectable society that was suddenly advanced beyond anything seen before in the space of a heartbeat. That they didn't first collect in small groups and then form small villages and then form small cities and so on and so forth. That one day Og the Cavewoman walked outsie, looked up at the stars, and said "I think I'll invent the microchip today. I need a cleanroom as well and some soldering technology and electron microscopes and clean clothing and ventilation systems and the proper ores and materials for plastics -- but Yog can do the plastics, I think and Zippy can have me an electron microscope and electricity by sundown."

That, frankly, isn't believable.

And you underestimate just how much an impact civilizations leave. People lose stuff, drop stuff, bury stuff (graveyards and so forth), and their vehicles leave traces that are detectable. It's not that hard here in Texas to find traces of the American Indians that lived several thousand years ago (arrowhead finds are common.) The concept of a Magic Civilization that leaves no trace really isn't defensible.

I think that mankind has become widespread many times before in the past, but never attaining the degree of technical mastery as ours has done.

Again, you knock holes into your own theory because these less masterful civilizations would leave all kinds of traces. Garbage dumps, for one.

In truth, I believe the histories to contain highly stylized renderings of historical events. In fact, Solon relates this interpretation to us from the Egyptians, who said the same things themselves of the histories the Greeks maintained.

Source, please? I have a number of Egyptian texts lying around and there's nothing of the sort in the ones I have. Perhaps you could point me to the manuscript?

One of the more curious passages in the Timaeus is where Solon relates the story of the time when a lesser god took the chariot of Apollo without the God's permission, and being unable to control the horses path, caused the sun to descend too close to the earth, burning it up and making the sun move around strangely in the sky. The Egyptian priest said clearly that this story was not the doing of any such god, but was actually an event where the heavens changed their declination in the sky, which would indicate a sudden movement of the earth about it's axis.

Source? As far as I know, this is never mentioned in any texts. I'd like to see a link to the original so I could read it, please.

Originally posted by CaptainRon
well give up on ur ignorant attitude guys!

I'm speaking strictly from my own personal point of view, based on my short time here, so take it for what it's worth.

This thread demonstrates how not to advance a theory on ATS. Specifically, it is inadvisable to push a theory with almost no substantiation and then insult and denigrate those who don't buy everything you say hook, line and sinker.

If you are looking for honest criticism and discussion about your theories, ATS can offer that, and there are some excellent skeptics here as this thread documents.

On the other hand, if you are looking for credulous dupes who will believe anything you post, yes we have those too, but they are tolerated as nuisances, not deified, and will abandon your wild theory as soon as something even whackier comes along, so even that would be only a temporary "victory".

If you are in the mood to deny ignorance, I recommend starting with the captain in the mirror.

You may find this thread a disappointment, but I see it as a sign that ATS is not lost yet. The day someone can come along, post something like this and find universal agreement, then ATS will have truly failed to deny ignorance.

As for the topic, I find it very interesting, but without more coherent substantiation from sources that stand up to reasonable scrutiny, it's just another theory among millions of theories.

sisonek, please be so kind as to shorten the titles of the URLs you posted.

Excessively long URL titles screw up the page formatting, as demonstrated here, making the page hard to read and potentially driving readers away.

CaptainRon may also need to shorten the names of these URLs as quoted.



[edit on 11/21/2004 by Majic]

.
.
.
Can someone PLEASE fix these margins? (please? ) This is a great discussion but it's killing me to read it....

...I tend to agree that humanity has reached astounding heights in the past, and that evidence has been erased by 'natural processes' like earthquakes, ice sheets and molecular breakdown.

...I also agree with Byrd's point that standard religious paradigms are used to entrench the status quo (or whatever he actually said), and that 1) this is dangerous, and 2) highlights the need for a new paradigm.

...More specifically, I do see an "ancient battle" - between two factions: one dedicated to establishing and maintaining an elite ruling class, and the other to educating and nurturing all humanity to be considered equal.

...Usury, religions, medical and other conspiracies, and other "tools" and methods are built or appropriated to further the 'ancient agenda,' by both sides. and the pendulum keeps swinging. Main point - any tool can be mis-used.

...As much as evidence exists to show negative conspiracies, I think many things can be interpreted to show ongoing historical efforts to mitigate these negative influences, maintain balance.

...For example, Christianity served this purpose before it was institutionalized.

So Byrd, with or without 'technological advance,' consider that our predecessors may have been very wise, and educated in the ways of the world. They understood the 'enemy,' the dynamics of individual, social and cultural development, and worked with skill to better the human species. ...Unfortunately, reality being what it is, the work begins anew with each generation. Thus was born the "myth" of Sisyphus.

I suspect you are focusing exclusively on the appropriated and pathogenic permutations of ancient traditions - not that these are not real, but a bit of 'mining' might find gold. Ie., Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

...all off the top of my head. Hope it's a reasonable contribution. ...Thanks for the thread and discussion here.



.

There's just one starship-sized hole in this concept, though: it assumes that humans went from wandering around the landscape in groups, knapping flints to a non-detectable society that was suddenly advanced beyond anything seen before in the space of a heartbeat. That they didn't first collect in small groups and then form small villages and then form small cities and so on and so forth. That one day Og the Cavewoman walked outsie, looked up at the stars, and said "I think I'll invent the microchip today. I need a cleanroom as well and some soldering technology and electron microscopes and clean clothing and ventilation systems and the proper ores and materials for plastics -- but Yog can do the plastics, I think and Zippy can have me an electron microscope and electricity by sundown."

That, frankly, isn't believable.

Well in that case... ask ur grand dad (if alive yet) or else dad that what he was used to when he was 10 yr old
and what's the world like now, for him...?
Even in our case its like the cave women...
Dude... timeline has been very long comprising of thousands of years!
what makes you think that out of 10,000 years this recent 100 years were all that man got civilised in...
anyway...