Christ's Foreskin. The Circumcision of Jesus. Where'd it go? Potential for Christ CLONES?

reply to post by St Udio


I'm just working with the information provided.

I, personally, don't believe an actual physical individual personality person Jesus ever existed.
I, personally, based on history, feel there's sufficient confidence in History that he's a made-up character.

Yet, we have all these supposed relics, or religious fetish items. They came from somewhere. People are claiming them to be legit. The Church endorses their legitimacy.

I'm just operating from the what-iffing perspective more from a psychological and sociological fascination with the mythology and adherence to faith.

reply to post by AliceBleachWhite


I don't feel like starting research on the evidence just to sway you otherwise but the Romans, Jews and followers of Islam all acknowledged he lived. He is even in the Koran! Ordinary human or not I find it strange so many people that don't get along and have different views on the man himself all agree on one thing, he existed.

reply to post by ashtonhz8907


Either/or matters absolutely zero to me or this thread.

The point is, there's a claim for a piece of a mythological figure (whether they existed or not, whatever), and if there were material enough to clone, whatever it turned out to be, especially if it was actually human, no matter the ethnicity, no matter the debate of authenticity, some people of religious bent will bank some faith in it.

As linked previous, there's people that volunteer to actually get nailed onto a real cross with real nails to reenact the cruxifiction/crucifixion (however it's spelled and whether it's fiction or not).

Thus, either/or, whether the Jeebus was or wasn't, isn't really the matter here.

The matter here is that there IS an artifact that CLAIMS to be a piece of skin from this character, AND the artifact is RECOGNIZED by the Church as being legitimate (whether or not in reality it actually is).

The matter here, as extension from that, questions elements of FAITH associated with this mythology in where whatever this piece of skin belongs to gets cloned, resulting in a human, which is then in turn claimed to be a Jesus Clone.

We have additional issues where the material is cloned just for protein manufacture where the resulting "Jesus Meat" could then be used for anything from communion Wafers, Hamburgers, Tacos, Sausage, Jiggley Jello, any other meat by-product or maybe even Condoms.

The same question could be applied to the other articles linked to in this thread that supposedly represent physical remains in the form of either blood, or even the umbilical cord.

Thus, again, whether on not the Christ figure existed, or not, or was circumcised, or not, or was even a man, or not, matters not.
There's an artifact that claims to be a piece of the character.
if anything could be cloned from this, what could the consequences/results be?

We have additional issues where the material is cloned just for protein manufacture where the resulting "Jesus Meat" could then be used for anything from communion Wafers, Hamburgers, Tacos, Sausage, Jiggley Jello, any other meat by-product or maybe even Condoms.

reply to post by AliceBleachWhite


This made me laugh pretty hard


Anyways so say they get a foreskin and it is human and gets cloned, the clone automatically would become "the jeebus" whether is or is not in the eyes of individuals who subscribe to hard core self mutilation and insane ceremonial past times. If happened by the religious foundations one would think that the ethics would have to change in regards to all human cloning, and to think it all starts with the penis skin from an ancient guy. I wonder what else would happen if they start drinking this guys blood and other strange things and nothing happens to them what would be the most likely ramification consequences would be?


I guess to boil it all down, I am saying that this would be a definitive overt action that religion would lobby to bend medical and scientific ethics to produce a cloned "god" this would have dire consequences in my opinion! And even worse, is the ones that buy it, when they discover the clones blood isnt the fountain of youth or immortality in a cup what becomes of them? Also to note this would be all over ats in the form of something like

"Second coming of Christ, Cloned Jesus inseminated into Virgin surrogate!" or something to that effect propagating a self fulfilled mass prophecy this is of course just a bit of my speculation and sarcasm

I don't care who's foreskin we use. I am pro-cloning, so cut it off, stick it in a test tube, add some salt and see if we get another baby out of it.

I just want to say like the million other people like me... I was born in 85! Jesus is my buddy.

AliceBleachWhite

On a personal note: I personally don't think the Jesus Character even existed as a real person.
I personally think the Jesus character is an amalgamation of the Buddha as well as other figures of the time which would have been convenient vehicles for the perpetuation of a prophecy fulfillment event.

By extension, a Jesus foreskin would thus be impossible, but, for those that actually DO take stock in this mythology, the whole foreskin question, and faith in such a thing, to them, could very well be an important issue.

Sorry I was referring to this bit. I doubt that we have his foreskin and if we do I think it is a fake. I'm just saying for the standard of the time Jesus had his life remarkably documented while most are Christian sources there are others as well, including great Roman historians of the 1st century. He was more so documented than many of his contemporaries. I find it silly to debate whether he existed. I think it is pretty much a historical fact at this point, where the debate is are the many inconsistencies and contradictions. As you said he may have been a convenient vehicle for other's propaganda but as a physical human he did exist. In other words I'm saying the man existed the ideology of the man is what is at question. Back to the foreskin though, I doubt it exist and if it did I doubt there will be Jesus meat or anything soon. I doubt there would be cloning especially by any true Christians but heh with the world we live in today anything is possible.

reply to post by ashtonhz8907


To add further thought to my previous post I meant to clarify if the Catholic Church retains ownership they would not clone it even if the means became available. Smaller fanatical religions might want to but they would not posses the funds to do so. The only real issue would be some rich fanatic getting ahold of it. Otherwise what I'm saying is in the Church's hands there will be nothing to see. I doubt it was lost or stollen though and more likely hidden for being a forgery.

reply to post by ashtonhz8907


I have made it pretty clear that within the vatican it is an excommunicative offense to speak of the Holy Foreskin, There is a bunch of links I think on the first page I provided. To me this says enough about the actual relic in question, but it could also be as AIW and other members pointed out, could imply there is an alternate reason why and it may be exactly as all other relics were used, TO MAKE MONEY, pay to see the relic, buy the endulgence etc etc. I do agree with you BTW

ashtonhz8907

Sorry I was referring to this bit. I doubt that we have his foreskin and if we do I think it is a fake. I'm just saying for the standard of the time Jesus had his life remarkably documented while most are Christian sources there are others as well, including great Roman historians of the 1st century. He was more so documented than many of his contemporaries. I find it silly to debate whether he existed. I think it is pretty much a historical fact at this point, where the debate is are the many inconsistencies and contradictions. As you said he may have been a convenient vehicle for other's propaganda but as a physical human he did exist. In other words I'm saying the man existed the ideology of the man is what is at question. Back to the foreskin though, I doubt it exist and if it did I doubt there will be Jesus meat or anything soon. I doubt there would be cloning especially by any true Christians but heh with the world we live in today anything is possible.

edit on 12/25/2013 by ashtonhz8907 because: (no reason given)

Since this isn't that, please enjoy discussion on that topic:
Here - Did Jesus Really Exist? by member Frozenspark.
or here - Ancient Confession found: 'we invented Jesus Christ' by member Budski
or Did Jesus Exist? from honored Moderator DontTreadOnMe, authored back in 2004.

ashtonhz8907
reply to post by ashtonhz8907

 

To add further thought to my previous post I meant to clarify if the Catholic Church retains ownership they would not clone it even if the means became available. Smaller fanatical religions might want to but they would not posses the funds to do so. The only real issue would be some rich fanatic getting ahold of it. Otherwise what I'm saying is in the Church's hands there will be nothing to see. I doubt it was lost or stollen though and more likely hidden for being a forgery.

It was stolen before. It can be stolen again, and it's not the only relic associated with the Christ Character that could potentially have retrievable DNA which in turn could then potentially be cloned toward whatever purpose.

AliceBleachWhite

ashtonhz8907
reply to post by ashtonhz8907

 

To add further thought to my previous post I meant to clarify if the Catholic Church retains ownership they would not clone it even if the means became available. Smaller fanatical religions might want to but they would not posses the funds to do so. The only real issue would be some rich fanatic getting ahold of it. Otherwise what I'm saying is in the Church's hands there will be nothing to see. I doubt it was lost or stollen though and more likely hidden for being a forgery.

It was stolen before. It can be stolen again, and it's not the only relic associated with the Christ Character that could potentially have retrievable DNA which in turn could then potentially be cloned toward whatever purpose.

If Jesus was cloned from nails, Would he have an auto immunity against tetanus??

AliceBleachWhite
reply to post by Snsoc

 

Certainly. Yet, someone will pay $10,000 for some toast on ebay because it might possibly maybe could be if one squints perceived to resemble at least a little bit, a potential shape that might look like Mary.

Now take that same kind of fetishism, and make Jesus Clones.
Jesus clones could be Male, or, even Female.

Consider parts of the world where prostitution is legal, and then, consider someone slimey enough to make a Female Jesus Clone, raise it in isolation specifically for the purpose of eventually pimping it out to the Prostitution circuit.
Consider the same with a Male Jesus clone pimped out to high-end Homosexual Prostitution.

We're all quite familiar with the degeneracy of Catholic Priests in what sorts of things they get up to with altar boys. What if they had access to Jesus Clones?
It could be argued the Jesus Clones are "property" of the Church, and can thus be dispensed with and used by the Church in whatever way or means, even up to including Live Crucifixions the like of which some people volunteer for and carry out even now.
Filipinos reenact Crucifixion with real Nails!

Consider, as stated before, the types of people that would just clone the Jesus Protein and make cloned Jesus Meat. Communion and the "body" of Christ could take on a whole new meaning for some cult.

An enterprising Fast Food Chain could have Jesus Burgers.

The depravity and Fetish attachment to just the idea of a genetic attachment to the Christ Character could and would result in far more disgusting acts than these.

Clone an Army of Jesus babies. Who's going to shoot at them?

edit on 12/25/2013 by AliceBleachWhite because: (no reason given)

These are all horrifying to me as a believer, but as a writer, I love the way your brain works! So many creative ideas just in this post. Do you write fiction? You should.

I've read and seen a lot of disgusting crap in my life, but this takes the cake. Who gives a **** where this thing is? The practice of taking these things is barbaric enough. Now you want to have a discussion about it.

WTF do you people come up with these ideas? Are you going for stars and flags?

reply to post by Restricted


Historically all the way into the 20th century into today it has been a discussion at the Vatican

Natgeo
Theologians
Religious scholars
Alchemy clubs
Independant Researchers
etc

Why not talk about it on ATS? especially under context of the modern ability to clone if relic is in fact real, just when you thought you heard it all, It happened on ATS first

reply to post by AliceBleachWhite


Oh God... that's the year I was born...

According to Jewish law, just like blood, it would have been buried in the ground.
A lot of those old religious relics were nothing but hoaxes used to generate money for churches, or to go into the collections of rich nobles.

The guy who wrote Fight Club wrote a book called Choke. The main character may or may not have been cloned from Jesus' foreskin.

reply to post by Snsoc


"Therefore, any clone of Christ would be just a person. He wouldn't have the soul of Logos, which took possession of the fertilized egg of Joseph & Mary at the moment of conception."

i was going to say that also.

Jesus was 100% human. God dna wouldn't be found, lol. i don't think God has dna.

he had powers and they weren't biological in origin.

we'd get to see what he looked like, tho. lol!

defcon5
According to Jewish law, just like blood, it would have been buried in the ground.
A lot of those old religious relics were nothing but hoaxes used to generate money for churches, or to go into the collections of rich nobles.

I don't disagree.

As has been said, however, regardless of whether it's authentic, regardless of whether the Christ Character even existed, regardless of what happened to the Christ Character's actual foreskin and whether indeed this is it or not, regardless any of that, the relic under discussion is recognized by The Church, and thus "legitimized".

Regardless even speculation on that, as detailed, people will buy Toast on Ebay that has a burn pattern that looks like Mary.
As to this relic, whatever it is, it's recognized as a Holy Relic by the Church, and for many who bank their Faith in that, their faith and their faith alone in the thing, whatever that thing might be is all that matters.

Thus, it all comes down to a question of faith, and were this relic, or any other relic advertised as having association with the Christ Character to be stolen, later to have claims of cloning pop up, regardless of whether cloning actually even took place, it's my opinion that people would invest their coin of faith in believing whatever person gets paraded around and advertised as a Jesus Clone.



As said, this thing doesn't have to have any ties to any kind of reality.
People believe in it.
If it got stolen (again), cloning doesn't even have to take place. The thieves could just CLAIM they successfully cloned a Jesus Clone from it, and sell babies they stole from jungle villages somewhere under the claim that they're Jesus clones.

It all comes down to Faith, and the same con games the Church itself has been playing since the Church ever had even a modicum of power.