We are born sinners

danielsil18

I was born into a Catholic culture and was baptized so I could be saved from my sins.
Why would I be considered a sinner for something I haven't done?

...

When I was born I didn't even know who Adam and Eve were, but I was already responsible for their actions, it doesnt make any sense.

edit on 21-12-2013 by danielsil18 because: (no reason given)

First to answer your questions ..... because like a great restaurant or movie or comfy Italian leather shoes, religion sells and those selling need to keep the story going or guess what, it stops selling and millions of the church elite go unemployed and those at the very top sink to the stature / likes of us. You were baptized and others are married there and others pray to the old guy up in the sky from within there mainly so there's a perfectly valid reason to have a fancy church in the first place.

Religion is a multi million dollar business that thrives on the naive and easily distracted. The old guys in Rome wearing the fancy headdress (like colourful birds with plumes to attract the female) and robes don't fool most anyone.

The Catholic religion is based on myth that was believed literally rather than taken metaphorically. Why is it there's others who were.....

“Horus was born on December 25th”
“Horus was born of a virgin”
“Three Wise Men Came to Adore the New Born Savior”
“Horus had 12 Disciples”
“Horus was crucified. Dead for three days. And Resurrected”

“Mithras was attended to by Shepherds”
“Mithra had 12 disciples.”
“Mithras was crucified. Dead for three days. And then resurrected.”

“Dionysus was born of a virgin”
“Dionsysus was born on December 25th”

You're a sinner because it's easier to preach to the willing rather than telling them they are and everything else is okay resulting in priests having to go door to door to find out if there's any real sinners there.....

Jaded? Yes I am.

I'm also a Catholic ... but as you get older and more and more needless wars are fought in the name of God, and more and more suffering is heaped upon the helpless and their prayers are unanswered and children with hundreds of flies buzzing around their heads die of starvation and women are raped by monsters who rule and no one helps them and disease kills millions and on and on and on....

...and the glowing and bearded old guy up in the sky looks down and changes the channel to another one of his galactic 'reality' shows because this ones getting old and it's leading to an ending he's seen millions of time.

If there was a caring God all this crap would have ended ages ago but the naive and easily distracted are led to believe this is a test of their ????? fortitude, belief, character ?????

So, it would be incredibly difficult to now admit the sham that was created 1,900 years ago and preached ever since was the mere rantings of a bunch of loons......

Merry Christmas and may everyone get all those things they put on your Christmas wish list because after all it's all about the gift of giving and receiving.

Here is some help on Original Sin. It is brief, not a long read. From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
Notice the underlined.


III. ORIGINAL SIN

Freedom put to the test

396 God created man in his image and established him in his friendship. A spiritual creature, man can live this friendship only in free submission to God. The prohibition against eating "of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" spells this out: "for in the day that you eat of it, you shall die."276 The "tree of the knowledge of good and evil"277 symbolically evokes the insurmountable limits that man, being a creature, must freely recognize and respect with trust. Man is dependent on his Creator, and subject to the laws of creation and to the moral norms that govern the use of freedom.

Man's first sin

397 Man, tempted by the devil, let his trust in his Creator die in his heart and, abusing his freedom, disobeyed God's command. This is what man's first sin consisted of.278 All subsequent sin would be disobedience toward God and lack of trust in his goodness.

398 In that sin man preferred himself to God and by that very act scorned him. He chose himself over and against God, against the requirements of his creaturely status and therefore against his own good. Constituted in a state of holiness, man was destined to be fully "divinized" by God in glory. Seduced by the devil, he wanted to "be like God", but "without God, before God, and not in accordance with God".279

399 Scripture portrays the tragic consequences of this first disobedience. Adam and Eve immediately lose the grace of original holiness.280 They become afraid of the God of whom they have conceived a distorted image - that of a God jealous of his prerogatives.281

400 The harmony in which they had found themselves, thanks to original justice, is now destroyed: the control of the soul's spiritual faculties over the body is shattered; the union of man and woman becomes subject to tensions, their relations henceforth marked by lust and domination.282 Harmony with creation is broken: visible creation has become alien and hostile to man.283 Because of man, creation is now subject "to its bondage to decay".284 Finally, the consequence explicitly foretold for this disobedience will come true: man will "return to the ground",285 for out of it he was taken. Death makes its entrance into human history.286

401 After that first sin, the world is virtually inundated by sin There is Cain's murder of his brother Abel and the universal corruption which follows in the wake of sin. Likewise, sin frequently manifests itself in the history of Israel, especially as infidelity to the God of the Covenant and as transgression of the Law of Moses. And even after Christ's atonement, sin raises its head in countless ways among Christians.287 Scripture and the Church's Tradition continually recall the presence and universality of sin in man's history:

What Revelation makes known to us is confirmed by our own experience. For when man looks into his own heart he finds that he is drawn towards what is wrong and sunk in many evils which cannot come from his good creator. Often refusing to acknowledge God as his source, man has also upset the relationship which should link him to his last end, and at the same time he has broken the right order that should reign within himself as well as between himself and other men and all creatures.288

The consequences of Adam's sin for humanity

402 All men are implicated in Adam's sin, as St. Paul affirms: "By one man's disobedience many (that is, all men) were made sinners": "sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned."289 The Apostle contrasts the universality of sin and death with the universality of salvation in Christ. "Then as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man's act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men."290

403 Following St. Paul, the Church has always taught that the overwhelming misery which oppresses men and their inclination towards evil and death cannot be understood apart from their connection with Adam's sin and the fact that he has transmitted to us a sin with which we are all born afflicted, a sin which is the "death of the soul".291 Because of this certainty of faith, the Church baptizes for the remission of sins even tiny infants who have not committed personal sin.292

404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam "as one body of one man".293 By this "unity of the human race" all men are implicated in Adam's sin, as all are implicated in Christ's justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state.294 It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called "sin" only in an analogical sense: it is a sin "contracted" and not "committed" - a state and not an act.

405 Although it is proper to each individual,295 original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ's grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.

406 The Church's teaching on the transmission of original sin was articulated more precisely in the fifth century, especially under the impulse of St. Augustine's reflections against Pelagianism, and in the sixteenth century, in opposition to the Protestant Reformation. Pelagius held that man could, by the natural power of free will and without the necessary help of God's grace, lead a morally good life; he thus reduced the influence of Adam's fault to bad example. The first Protestant reformers, on the contrary, taught that original sin has radically perverted man and destroyed his freedom; they identified the sin inherited by each man with the tendency to evil (concupiscentia), which would be insurmountable. The Church pronounced on the meaning of the data of Revelation on original sin especially at the second Council of Orange (529)296 and at the Council of Trent (1546).297

A hard battle. . .

407 The doctrine of original sin, closely connected with that of redemption by Christ, provides lucid discernment of man's situation and activity in the world. By our first parents' sin, the devil has acquired a certain domination over man, even though man remains free. Original sin entails "captivity under the power of him who thenceforth had the power of death, that is, the devil".298 Ignorance of the fact that man has a wounded nature inclined to evil gives rise to serious errors in the areas of education, politics, social action299 and morals ....

Here is the link to that section on Original Sin in the Catechism, I didn't share it all.

www.vatican.va...

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Rat poison contains good food? What? I don't know what you're trying to drive at here.

What parts of Christian doctrine (religion) do you disagree with exactly?

The parts that God disagrees with...

Religion is rat poison for the soul - 99% truth, 1% lies.

Rat poison consists of 99% real, honest to God, pure corn.

Rat poison looks like corn, it smells like corn—and it even tastes like corn.

In order for rat poison to work, it must have some good in it to attract the rats.

This is the REASON that Religion is actually the most powerful type of mind control...

Religion will NEVER tell you the TRUTH...

This is why countless others are so confused.

The truth about religion is FAR more complex than people realize.

What most believe about religion is so out of touch with reality that it boggles the mind.

This thread is a perfect example.

The entire agenda and purpose behind false religion is to keep the truth HIDDEN.

The hidden agenda behind false Religion is to cover up the truth about God, destroy spirituality and cause people to hate God.

Satan is hiding behind religion and masquerades as God using a robe of religion in order to turn people AWAY from the truth and away from God.

This is why the very LAST place you want to go to find truth is religion itself...

Are you seeking truth? You'll NEVER find it in religion...

reply to post by Murgatroid

Religion will NEVER tell you the TRUTH..

But in your opinion they do. The religion of Christianity teaches that the bible is the word of god and that Jesus is the only way to salvation, both of which you believe. Those are the two main doctrines of the religion of Christianity, so obviously religion does tell the truth in your opinion.

Other than that, I agree with you, except I think you've fallen for Satan's trick with the bible. What parts of Christian doctrine do you disagree with? Because sitting here, it seems like you agree with all the major points they make.

Christ died for our sins. Repenting is an on going thing. You can't just repent once and that is good enough. In order to be with God again, we need to repent and keep the commandments. Children are born innocent and I think it is so sad that a religion believes children are not saved. (my opinion, I'm not trying to bash or anything) Human beings are not perfect. That is why God sent a Savior to die for us. So just think, all the pain you have felt, the sadness, tribulation, anything that has caused you distress in your life, Christ felt that. He knows what are suffering is and this is when we show him how grateful we are to repent and to grow. To keep away from the things that keeps us far from Him. Also, we are not to blame for Adam and Eve's fall. That was on them and they have repented for it. Without the fall though, we wouldn't be on this earth. We would still be in the pre-mortal existence. I hope this helps and gives you some comfort. You can always message me if you have other questions.

The way i always answer this question is this: they have to convince
you your broken before they can convince you that they can fix you.

Religion is a dangerous and psychologically damaging thing, it convinces
you that your never good enough without them, that you cannot be
a fulfilled human being without their so called guidance.

bloodreviara
The way i always answer this question is this: they have to convince
you your broken before they can convince you that they can fix you.

Religion is a dangerous and psychologically damaging thing, it convinces
you that your never good enough without them, that you cannot be
a fulfilled human being without their so called guidance.

My religion doesn't teach at all that we are not good enough. They teach us to be an example like Christ and keep the commandments. If we make a mistake in life, that is what repentance is for. Christ came to this earth an died for us so that we would be able to return to God. All we have to do is repent and keep the commandments, love one another and serve Him.

What religion have you come across that makes you feel it is damaging? I am asking because I truly want to understand where you are coming from.

danielsil18
When I was born I didn't even know who Adam and Eve were, but I was already responsible for their actions, it doesnt make any sense.

If your parents were black Americans, you would be black, nothing to do with you, just your parents genetics. If you were born black in the 50s or in South Africa 30 years ago, you would be a second class citizen, not your fault either, just your genetics. This is just the law of this universe. Everyone was born after Adam and Eve sinned and thus were born sinners (that means their spirits are dead and need to be reborn). This is the law of the world you live in and the nature you are, i.e. human. Do you want God to go against the laws of the universe he created and change them for this one instance? If He did that then He wouldn't be true to Himself. Is this unfair for all of us who were born in sin? # Yeah! So instead of changing the laws of the universe he created, God has made a way out for all sinners who want it, and He wants all sinners to take that way out but it is up to them. There is so much disinfo out there that most people aren't taking it because they have all sorts of crazy ideas as to how to get out of the state of sin and about what God really wants from them.

P.S. Down with religion and up with redemption.

reply to post by eNaR


Catholicism and the myth, the falsehood that the faith is pagan.

A Protestant minister who wrote an anti-Catholic book siting Catholicism is paganism realized finally, just because two things are similar does NOT make them the same. Pastor Wilbur took his book Babylon, Mystery Religion out of print.

He explains....

+ + +

"My reason for pulling the original book out of print was quite basic: Citing similarities between Catholic practices and pagan practices proves nothing if there is no actual connection. One could take virtually anything—even McDonald’s golden arches—and do the same: The Encyclopedia Americana (article: "arch") says the use of arches was known in Babylon as early as 2020 B.C. As Babylon was called "the golden city" (Is. 14:4, KJV), can there be any doubt about the origin of the golden arches? As silly as this is, this is the type of proof that has been offered again and again about the supposed pagan origins of the Catholic Church.

It is the same method atheists use in seeking to discredit the Bible and Christianity altogether—not just the Catholic Church. By this method, one also could condemn Protestant and Evangelical denominations such as the Assemblies of God, Baptist, Church of Christ, Lutheran, Methodist and Nazarene: Basic things such as prayer and kneeling in prayer would have to be rejected, as pagans knelt and prayed to their gods. Water baptism would have to be rejected, for pagans had numerous rites involving water. The list could go on and on.

By this method, even the Bible would have to be rejected as pagan. All of the following practices or beliefs mentioned in the Bible were also known among pagans: raising hands in worship, taking off shoes on holy ground, a holy mountain, a holy place in a temple, offering sacrifices without blemish, a sacred ark, a city of refuge, bringing forth water from a rock, laws written on stone, fire appearing on a person’s head, horses of fire, the offering of first fruits, and tithes.

By this method, the Lord himself would be pagan. The woman called Mystery Babylon had a cup in her hand; the Lord has a cup in his hand (Ps. 75:8). Pagan kings sat on thrones and wore crowns; the Lord sits on a throne and wears a crown (Rev. 1:4; 14:14). Pagans worshiped the sun; the Lord is the "sun of righteousness" (Mal. 4:2). Pagan gods were likened to stars; the Lord is called "the bright morning star" (Rev. 22:16). Pagan gods had temples dedicated to them; the Lord has a temple (Rev. 7:15). Pagan gods were pictured with wings; the Lord is pictured with wings (Ps. 91:4)." ....


www.acatholicthinker.net...

imaredhead
Christ died for our sins. Repenting is an on going thing. You can't just repent once and that is good enough. In order to be with God again, we need to repent and keep the commandments. Children are born innocent and I think it is so sad that a religion believes children are not saved. (my opinion, I'm not trying to bash or anything) Human beings are not perfect. That is why God sent a Savior to die for us. So just think, all the pain you have felt, the sadness, tribulation, anything that has caused you distress in your life, Christ felt that. He knows what are suffering is and this is when we show him how grateful we are to repent and to grow. To keep away from the things that keeps us far from Him. Also, we are not to blame for Adam and Eve's fall. That was on them and they have repented for it. Without the fall though, we wouldn't be on this earth. We would still be in the pre-mortal existence. I hope this helps and gives you some comfort. You can always message me if you have other questions.

Original Sin is a fact, though not fully understood, a mystery. In the New Covenant, we can know, Our
Lord established the Sacrament of Baptism. Water Baptism REMOVES Original Sin. It is Christ's meaning
of "Born Again", His term. Read John 3 and near the end, verse 22, Our Lord went out with the Apostles
and baptized.

I love reading something mentioned above, repentance is ongoing, persevering to the end. And truly, we unite our sufferings, our crosses with Christ, He said pick up your cross. Our sufferings are redemptive and can be offered for others, their "yes" who are far from God.

Repent, repent for the life of your soul. Confess your serious (mortal) sins to God, with true contrition.
Catholics have to do more, they must go to Confession (John 20:23). Look at the value of repentance. Peter repented, Judas, I do not think he did.

Adam repented, oh the love of God, the Church teaches Adam is in Heaven.

reply to post by colbe


I'm sorry, did you say original sin is a fact?

I'd love to see your sources. Scientifically investigated and peer reviewed sources that have been examined and approved by an unbiased committee, I hope. You know, the sort of stuff a prestigious journal would be proud to display in issues all across the world and able to effectively and adequately defend in front of any number of well-researched skeptics.

After all, that's what a fact is.

reply to post by colbe


I definitely agree with what you said. I am not a Catholic, but I loved what you added on top of what I had said. Couldn't agree anymore.

AfterInfinity
reply to post by colbe

 

I'm sorry, did you say original sin is a fact?
I'd love to see your sources. Scientifically investigated and peer reviewed sources that have been examined and approved by an unbiased committee, I hope. You know, the sort of stuff a prestigious journal would be proud to display in issues all across the world and able to effectively and adequately defend in front of any number of well-researched skeptics.

After all, that's what a fact is.

edit on 23-12-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

AfterInfinity,

But who made those scientists? Original sin has been revealed by God. And He's revealed He wants you to believe His plan and His reason for creating you. All you have to do is give God some time, before you fall to sleep tonight, Ask Him to show you He is real. Ask Him to believe. He will give you the grace, this is 100% true, just trust Him.

I shared in another thread whose subject is show Jesus existed. It is not hard, I trust the revelation passed down for 20 centuries from those who knew Him. Another, why do people die for Christ? Why are people dying in Syria right now for Christ. They believe.

Science is your Truth, well, science discovered in 2011 something wonderful about the Shroud of Turin. They can't explain it, they found the marks were made by ultra violet light. Still, it is mystical, the findings acknowledge, what is their word...the marks on the Shroud are preternatural.


"In case there was any doubt about the preternatural degree of energy need to make such distinct marks the report spells it out: This degree of power CANNOT be reproduced by any normal UV source built TO DATE."

watch about 1:25 on....

www.huffingtonpost.com...



GBY,

colbe

reply to post by colbe


You could have just admitted it's not a fact and saved yourself the effort of composing... Whatever the hell that post is.