Open letter to Christians

reply to post by windword

Dear windword,

I will pay a quarter to anyone who explains to me how to accurately convey my meaning through words which I have to type myself. Besides the fact that it's difficult to self-edit, I'm lazy and my fingers get tired.

I am certainly not slighting your experiences. Nor do I disagree that people who are members of various Christian denominations do terrible things. My problem is that all I have to go on is the OP.

His claim of horrible abuse is one paragraph in a work which seems (and I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt) to be a call for mutual respect, discussion, and tolerance Not only does the abuse allegation seem to be a minor portion of his post, it is not, apparently, something which he cares to discuss because he says nothing which could be realistically considered abusive. He may have been abused, I don't know, but without even knowing what the claimed abuse was, how can any of us really comment?

Besides, again, I don't think that's his purpose. If he's not really desirous of a discussion, OK, fine. But if he is, I'd like that discussion to begin and not drift into other areas.

With respect,
Charles1952

His claim of horrible abuse is one paragraph in a work which seems (and I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt) to be a call for mutual respect, discussion, and tolerance

You mean when he said this?

So here's my proposal: If you guys stop this war against everything, and start holding people to Christ's "no one's perfect, but I love them anyway" standard, people will grow to respect you. Instead of preaching at people, get to know them. Stop looking at people as moral inferiors, but as human equals. I would like to get to know you ... not as the Bible on tape, but as human beings.

Or this?

In the end, this letter really goes out to everyone. The more we strive to look past petty differences and embrace what we do have in common, the better off this world will be.

LOL

Not only does the abuse allegation seem to be a minor portion of his post, it is not, apparently, something which he cares to discuss because he says nothing which could be realistically considered abusive. He may have been abused, I don't know, but without even knowing what the claimed abuse was, how can any of us really comment?

Not everyone has the rapier wit and intellectual prowess and appetite for conversation that you do, Charles! But, if you look at this poster's history, it's easy to see that he/she appears to be on a spiritual "precipice". (Don't jump OP!)

If he's not really desirous of a discussion, OK, fine. But if he is, I'd like that discussion to begin and not drift into other areas.

No thread drift?! LOL, From your fingers to God's............well, Hope springs eternal!

Let me see if I got this right, the op said he was abused because his parents made him go to church when he was a minor living under his/her parents home?
hmm well in that case my parents abused me too because they made me eat my veggies can you believe the damage it has had on my life every time I walk by the produce section.

reply to post by scolai


The Bible and "To train up a child" are incompatible. Your parents put their faith in a person (author of TTUAC), not God. If you put your faith in man, you will be disappointed.

Thanks for all the great posts. Sorry I wasn't around to answer questions some of you had for me.

To all those who question my abuse and twist my words to make it sound like I was abused by being forced to go to church, I'm sorry for not clarifying that my father beat me with a belt in such a way that it would wrap around my shoulders and chest because he "missed" my buttocks because he was standing three feet away from me, holding the belt like a whip ... among other things I'd prefer not to bring up. If that's all you got out of my post, then ... okay.

So to answer some questions you asked:

Paula: I cannot honestly say I took delight in the Lord. Then again, we were never really introduced.

Charles: I appreciate you opening up discussion instead of taking an offensive. My question is what right do Christians have to judge people? Who gave them the authority to determine who is living in sin? I understand that you believe the Bible to be an authority on the subjects, but does it not say that you should not point out the speck in your brother's eye when you have a plank in your own? Or that you shouldn't judge unless you want to be judged? Or the famous, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"? And to that end, does the Bible not say that everyone has sinned? It seems to me that Christians have a habit of holding other peoples morals to a standard higher than they hold their own. It's not speaking out against things like homosexuality and abortion that bother me -- but the way they are spoken against. For instance, which sounds more pleasant to you? "Sodomites and baby killers are going to hell!" or "I totally do not agree with homosexuality or abortion, but no one's perfect. God still loves them."

Itdepends: Are you a representative of Al Jazeera or are you just recommending that I contact them?

Windword: I was not adopted.

reply to post by scolai


You are correct, but the Bible is clear what is right and what is wrong. The problem comes when people use this as an excuse to be "superior". Pointing out sin out of love is not wrong, it's when we forget WE are also sinners, and use it as an opportunity to show we are "better" that a problem is created. This doesn't mean certain things are not set in stone as being sinful, they are.

reply to post by OccamsRazor04


But that leads to the question of whether it is the responsibility of Christians or God to convict sinners.

OccamsRazor04
reply to post by scolai

 

You are correct, but the Bible is clear what is right and what is wrong. The problem comes when people use this as an excuse to be "superior". Pointing out sin out of love is not wrong, it's when we forget WE are also sinners, and use it as an opportunity to show we are "better" that a problem is created. This doesn't mean certain things are not set in stone as being sinful, they are.

The problem with The Bible being "Clear" on what is 'right' and 'wrong' is that it condones Slavery, Rape as a means of obtaining wives as property, and even Human Sacrifice of Children (When someone is hearing Voices in their Head telling them they need to sacrifice their child).

In addition, all this supposed "clarity" of what's right and wrong is framed around all sorts of examples of Divinely Sanctioned Biblical Atrocities.
Thus, with all this "Clarity" on offer, anyone that hears voices is certainly sanctioned by Heaven to destroy whole cities, cutting the unborn from wombs and killing them, burning all the fields, and even killing all the animals, because "God" said so.

Anyone see a problem with this?

AliceBleachWhiteThe problem with The Bible being "Clear" on what is 'right' and 'wrong' is that it condones Slavery, Rape as a means of obtaining wives as property, and even Human Sacrifice of Children (When someone is hearing Voices in their Head telling them they need to sacrifice their child).

We can debate all day long about this and it will go around in circles, but the Bible absolutely does not condone rape as a means of obtaining wives as property, and to suggest as much is completely disingenuous. No human child sacrifice is condoned in the Bible, and to suggest it would lead me to believe you look to twist things, since having seen your posts I know you are intelligent enough to know it's not.

Again we can go all day long in a big circle, not interested, if someone wishes to throw away the Bible they are welcome to do so, what they can't do is decide to keep it, and then only keep the parts they like.

scolai
reply to post by OccamsRazor04

 

But that leads to the question of whether it is the responsibility of Christians or God to convict sinners.

No, there is no questions, only God can convict "sin". Man has laws, which need to be obeyed, and man can convict when people do not follow those laws. Those laws may or may not imitate the Bible and make different sins illegal. Either way the conviction is never on the sin, it can only ever be on the law.

That is not to say we should not judge. Anyone who says that is a complete fool, and you can prove it by asking a simple question. Would they let a person with multiple convictions for child molestation watch their child while they go out of town?

If that isn't judging what is? Judging is fine, just remember, YOU will be judged in the manner you judge others, and we all fall short. If you judge a thief is a bad person to watch your valuables, and you yourself are a thief, do not get indignant when someone else decides you are unfit to watch valuables.

reply to post by AliceBleachWhite


You want me to go to the thinking atheist? no thanks. soooo many generalizations and out of context articles. Who said you had to be Atheist to open your mind to rational thought? I honestly believe being Atheist is just the other spectrum to Creationists.

both are blind, arrogant, and unwilling to see the other sides argument or beliefs.

reply to post by OccamsRazor04


All I'm saying is I don't believe it's the right or responsibility of any person of any faith to hold another person to a moral code. Jesus himself spoke out against this type of behavior when he spoke out against the Pharisees.

Also, what if Matthew 7:1-2 is not referring to judgement by god, but some sort of karmic retribution? The Christians have judged others for years ... and now they are being judged with the same vitriol.

reply to post by scolai

Dear scolai,

Thank you very much for your kind words, patience, and willingness to speak with me. I am sorry to hear of the beatings your father gave you. I received several myself, but they were not related to religion. I cannot understand that as a tool for spiritual growth to use on anyone, let alone a child. My deepest sympathy. While the scars may still be in your heart and mind, I hope they are healing, that is a terrible burden to carry around through life. My hope and prayer is that you can shed them.

No matter what WINDWORD might have said about "rapier wit" and "intellectual prowess," don't believe her. Rapiers are hard, sharp, pointy things, and I am a cute, snuggly, cuddly, little bun-huggly person. You can ask anyone. Well, wait. It's been so many years that I can't really think of anyone who could tell you that, so you'll just have to take my word for it.

Let me try to respond as well as I can, but there are problems. I can only reliably report on my attitudes and opinions, and I can report reasonably well on what the Catholic Church has given in it's catechism. I have no clue what's going on in the minds of Westboro Baptist, those who believe in predestination, groups which have decided only a certain number will get into Heaven, or those who demand that a believer speak in tongues before he can be saved. If you're willing to live with that, let's go.

My question is what right do Christians have to judge people? Who gave them the authority to determine who is living in sin?

My belief is that the best an individual Christian can do is walk up privately to someone and say "Hey, Bill, I gotta tell you that what you're doing is going against what the Church tells us is right. Better look at yourself and try to figure out what may be going wrong in your life. Bro, I care about you and don't want you getting into serious trouble with God."

There are provisions for what to do if that seems to make no difference, but I don't think they need to be discussed here. (But I will, if you'd like.)

I understand that you believe the Bible to be an authority on the subjects, but does it not say that you should not point out the speck in your brother's eye when you have a plank in your own? Or that you shouldn't judge unless you want to be judged? Or the famous, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"? And to that end, does the Bible not say that everyone has sinned?

Absolutely right, basically. Although the wording is a little different than what you think. I don't think it would be a help for me to look at the verses individually, because they all point to a similar problem, hypocrisy. As you point out:

It seems to me that Christians have a habit of holding other peoples morals to a standard higher than they hold their own.

Which is a good enough definition of hypocrisy for me to be going on with.

Scolai, we're all in this together. We're all God's creatures, and we're all going to be judged by Him. Let's say you see me posting in an angry and hateful manner. Or, perhaps, that I'm being unnecessarily hurtful. I hope to God (literally) that you or someone else will call me on it. Either by U2U or in a thread. That's not what God wants me to do, and I'd better fix it. If I can't fix it, and all my posts are hateful, it would be better for everyone if I stopped posting all together.

We're all sinners and it is a good thing to help each other to overcome these sins. Notice that I said help, and not beat on. Help comes from God, Hate comes from Satan.

It's not speaking out against things like homosexuality and abortion that bother me -- but the way they are spoken against. For instance, which sounds more pleasant to you? "Sodomites and baby killers are going to hell!" or "I totally do not agree with homosexuality or abortion, but no one's perfect. God still loves them."

First, no Christian can say with certainty whether any individual person is going to Heaven Hell. For several reasons, including God's unfathomable mercy, and the possibility of sincere repentance and reform later in life.

But, just as important, it is not love to see your brother headed for the edge of cliff and let him keep walking without any attempt to warn him.

I ask God and my Brothers and Sisters for their help in guiding me to a life a holiness. I will help others if I can, but I will always do my best to love. I'm sure other Christians do it better than I do, but it should be the goal of all.

With respect,
Charles1952

scolai
reply to post by OccamsRazor04

 

All I'm saying is I don't believe it's the right or responsibility of any person of any faith to hold another person to a moral code. Jesus himself spoke out against this type of behavior when he spoke out against the Pharisees.

Also, what if Matthew 7:1-2 is not referring to judgement by god, but some sort of karmic retribution? The Christians have judged others for years ... and now they are being judged with the same vitriol.

Either there IS a moral code or there is not. Jesus never spoke against this towards the Pharisees, he spoke against them following the letter and not the Spirit. You can follow both the letter and the Spirit, that is what you should do. You can not follow the Spirit and not the letter.

Since you did not respond to a single point I actually made and simply reiterated your belief, I will assume you CAN'T counter a single point I made, and just desire to continue to think as you will.

reply to post by charles1952


Very well said, in the end all things should be done with love, including pointing out sin.