Freemasons and Paganistic ritual

Originally posted by mastermason
Wine is never used in lodge, except to dedicate corner stones.

Wine is used in Lodge during the Fellowcraft Degree, it is presented with Corn and Oil (it is not drunk). The dedication of a cornerstone occurs outside of a Lodge (wherever the building is, as you would expect), and the Masonic Ceremonial (which is different from Ritual) is public. The same (symbolically) Corn, Wine, and Oil as in the Fellowcraft Degree is used. A small amount (of each) is poured on the stone, but once again none is consumed. When all is said and done, an appropriate toast to the day's Labor will be made (at an appropriate venue).

Originally posted by SpiritBreaker
Recently I was reading an article by a man receving the 33rd degree of masonry.

The author you are speaking of is the Rev. James D. Shaw, and the article you read was an excerpt from his book "The Deadly Deception".
This has been dealt with here before, but to recap:

1. Shaw was never a 33� Mason. When he resigned, he was a 32� Knight Commander of the Court of Honour.

2. Shaw was never a Past Master in his Lodge, nor Past Master of all Scottish Rite Bodies, as he falsely claimed in his book.

3. I have previously posted photocopies on this forum of Shaw's resignation letter, his demit, and a Reunion program from Shaw's Scottish Rite Valley at the time of his resignation, which proves the above two points.

4. Shaw's description of the 33� was based on a fake, published in Jonathon Blanchard's "Scotch Rite Masonry Illustrated" 120 years ago.

Shaw did, however, tell the truth about being acting Wise Master in his Rose Croix Chapter, but lied about the Maundy Thursday ceremony (this ceremony has since been opened to the public, and anyone can confirm it by attending).

His description of the temple itself is what first insighted me to write this article.

His description of the House of the Temple is correct; this building has always been opened to the public, and contains the first public library in Washington, D.C. Also, you can take a virtual tour of the Temple on the website of the Supreme Council 33�.

Now I am not a very religious man but I am religious enough to know that in almost every religion the serpent is the symbol used to represent evil

Actually, the opposite is true. In most religions, the serpent symbolizes good fortune and long life, presumable because they shed their skins and appear to be regenerated. This is why the serpent was considered sacred by the Egyptians, and is still honored by the Chinese. Even Christ exhorted his followers to be "wise as serpents".

(the president of the U.S is given the honorary 32nd degree for example)

The President of the US is not given any honorary Masonic degrees...being a president has nothing to do with being a Mason. There have been 15 US Presidents who were Masons, and I have previously on this forum listed them, their Masonic honors, and the Lodges in which they were members.

Fiat Lvx.

Since Masons seem to represent on this thread I have two questions to pitch. Just as an overall observation on non-mason related topics, a lot of members seemed to be well versed on diagramed symbols, their origin, and hybridization. Can anyone (the more the merrier) speak to why this is?

In addition, I've also noticed on these threads they're well versed on rites and rituals. Can I have a brief synopsis as to the reason and goal for performing these?

These questions may help the thread originator as well as myself understand why the initial claim could not be true.

Originally posted by saint4God
Since Masons seem to represent on this thread I have two questions to pitch. Just as an overall observation on non-mason related topics, a lot of members seemed to be well versed on diagramed symbols, their origin, and hybridization. Can anyone (the more the merrier) speak to why this is?

Throughout the years, Masonry has adopted many different symbols from older systems; therefore, at least for the Mason who seriously studies his fraternity, he eventually develops a working knowledge of their history and use.

In addition, I've also noticed on these threads they're well versed on rites and rituals. Can I have a brief synopsis as to the reason and goal for performing these?

It depends upon what rites/rituals you are referring to. Practically all systems of philosophical insight, from religious to secular, have some sort of ritualistic discipline. An example of the secular is a graduation ceremony for high school students, or birthday celebration. An example of religious is the Eucharist. Everyone has rituals for something or other.

Fiat Lvx.

Quote: "Now I am not a very religious man but I am religious enough to know that in almost every religion the serpent is the symbol used to represent Evil."

I know that it has been stated already by others in the Thread - but the Serpent has gotten a BAD RAP as a symbol of Evil. Ok so it might be a "Pagan Symbol" (Along with the Eagle, Goat, Ram, Bull or any other Horned Animal) - but in actuality it is a Symbol of WISDOM & KNOWLEDGE. It has been so for the Longest Time - check out the "Medicine/Medical" Symbol! This is what the Serpent Truly Represented in the Ancient World.

Looks like another attempt to Smear FreeMasonry with Propaganda to me!
Ignorance Denied!

Originally posted by SpiritBreaker
Now I am not a very religious man but I am religious enough to know that in almost every religion the serpent is the symbol used to represent evil, or in Christianity the serpent is used to describe the earthen form of Satan.

Really?........

Try reading: Numbers, 21: 4-9.

Be careful. Symbols really only represent concepts, and usually
more than one. Here the serpent is used to represent not
only judgement, but also forgiveness. The raising of the serpent
upon a pole in order to heal the people could also be understood
to be a prophecy of One who was to come to bring forgiveness
in the future. If He is represented by a serpent, then it follows
that He must be evil ,and the earthen form of Satan.This would
mean that those that follow Him would have to be called Satanists.
I think that His followers might take some offense at that suggestion.
I think that Masons would also.




[edit on 11/20/2004 by tylerdjp]

Wine is used in Lodge during the Fellowcraft Degree, it is presented with Corn and Oil (it is not drunk).


Wrong!! In my State it is never allowed in our lodge, thank you. Up north I hear they drink after lodge but Wine is Never allowed inside the Lodge room

[edit on 20-11-2004 by mastermason]

If your not a master mason you know nothing about this subject. Believe nothing you read, only what you experience.

Originally posted by mastermason
If your not a master mason you know nothing about this subject. Believe nothing you read, only what you experience.

Why should I believe you? Seriously.

For one, if some "evil" # did go down, you definitely wouldn't tell us.

Your side of view is biased (like everyone elses).

How do I know you truly are a master mason?

Snakes are not always associated with evil, what about the Caduceus of Hermes, the symbol of medical associations all over the world.

Consider Exodus 4:1-4 where god gives Moses a rod, when he casts it to the ground it becomes a serpent, then Moses takes it be the tail and it again becomes a rod for his hand, throughout history snakes are associated with wisdom.

I find it humorous that all my feedback is about how anti-masons don't know there facts. I have done just as much studying on the masons as the next person. I would not expect anyone who participates in such blasphemous acts as the masons do to own up to it. This argument could go on forever and none of you have really given me a logical answer to any of my discrepencies with the craft. I have seen many of you on different threads refer to the masons as being a secert group much like the KKK. Well this is something i am in total aggreance with. Because just like the KKK the masons are only out for the advancement of their members.

Originally posted by SpiritBreaker
I find it humorous that all my feedback is about how anti-masons don't know there facts. I have done just as much studying on the masons as the next person. I would not expect anyone who participates in such blasphemous acts as the masons do to own up to it.

As our above posts make clear, your knowledge of Freemasonry is scant and superficial, at best; in reality, you know very little about Freemasonry, as is evidenced by your posts, and it is recommended that you educate yourself more on the subject in order to be prepared for serious debate.

For example, you posted your belief that Hiram Abiff was "imaginary", even though his history is recorded in the Bible in both I Kings and II Chronicles (you are apparently unaware that the English transaltion "Hiram Abiff" is derived from the Hebrew "Khirom Abiv", which is found in the Tanakh...and, just in case you don't know, the Tanakh is the Hebrew Bible, and is what Christians call the "Old Testament").

You also claimed that Hiram built Solomon's throne, which is incorrect. Hiram was a craftsman who worked on the Temple, and had nothing to do with Solomon's palace.

When you have educated yourself more on the subject, and are able to ask intelligent questions, we'll be happy to answer.

Fiat Lvx.

[edit on 20-11-2004 by Masonic Light]

Originally posted by SpiritBreaker
Well this is something i am in total aggreance with. Because just like the KKK the masons are only out for the advancement of their members.

Perhaps you would like to peruse the Chritable grants donated to non-masonic groups by The Grand Charity run by the Grand Lodge of England.

from 1981 to 2004

www.grandcharity.co.uk...

totalling �34,400,000.00

Now I agree a large sum also goes on top of that to Masonic run Charities. They are however registered Charities. There work is not restricted to Masons. But so as not to be seen a being nit picky these figures are not included. niether are the donations fron individual Lodges to local Charities.

So to say Masons just look after themselves is clearly not true. In the UK Freemasonry is in the top 10 donators to Independant Charities.

We can move on to Shriner Hospitals, last count 33 major Hospitals I think.
but I am sure there are some US Masons who would know much more than I do.

[edit on 20-11-2004 by billmcelligott]

Bill,

You are again correct, but I'm afraid we're wasting our time with this one. Anyone who would write something as blatantly absurd as I would not expect anyone who participates in such blasphemous acts as the masons do to own up to it probably isn't very many days past his 15th birthday.

[edit on 20-11-2004 by Masonic Light]

Originally posted by Romanakis

Originally posted by mastermason
If your not a master mason you know nothing about this subject. Believe nothing you read, only what you experience.

Why should I believe you? Seriously.

For one, if some "evil" # did go down, you definitely wouldn't tell us.

Your side of view is biased (like everyone elses).

How do I know you truly are a master mason?

I don't have to prove my self to you only othe mastermasons.

Originally posted by SpiritBreaker
I find it humorous that all my feedback is about how anti-masons don't know there facts.

Well, quite frankly, you don't.

I have done just as much studying on the masons as the next person.

I SERIOUSLY doubt the veracity of this statement.

I would not expect anyone who participates in such blasphemous acts as the masons do to own up to it.

This sentance does not dignify a response.

This argument could go on forever and none of you have really given me a logical answer to any of my discrepencies with the craft.

No, your "discrepancies" have been soundly and logically refuted.

I have seen many of you on different threads refer to the masons as being a secert group much like the KKK.

Really? Where? A link or a quote perhaps? Good luck!

Well this is something i am in total aggreance with.

Only goes to prove your lack of research and knowledge of both Masonry AND the KKK....

Because just like the KKK the masons are only out for the advancement of their members.

Do you evn READ these threads before you post this garbage? You haven't the slightest clue what Masonry is about, and from reading your posts, it is not likely that you ever will...


Two words: DENY IGNORANCE!!!

*edit for spelling*



[edit on 11/21/04 by The Axeman]

Thanks for the info Masonic Light, much appreciated.