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When the system has been firmly implanted and one has become an adult and has left the confines of the physical cage - home environment and school environment - one then gets other authority figures. A wife/husband tells you how you should be - the job tells you how to be - the media and society tell you how you should be (programming). One has learned early on that one must be a certain way - one has learned to be a victim, one has learned that there is always authority 'out there'.
There is no amount of "mindfulness" that would change this kind of bully. Cognitive empathy, and even sympathy is intact, it's the emotional empathy that is lacking, or perhaps even entirely non-existent.
Astrocyte
reply to post by webedoomed
As a matter of statistical fact, only about 1 to 1.5 % of individuals have anti-social personality disorder i.e. are clinically sociopathic. These kids, true, cannot exactly be molded. There is something genetically wrong with them. Cortical areas do not link up with subcortical areas, so the anterior insula (where representations are made for emotions) might be the place in the brain where the problem lies.
But since the vast majority of people aren't in this category, your claim:
There is no amount of "mindfulness" that would change this kind of bully. Cognitive empathy, and even sympathy is intact, it's the emotional empathy that is lacking, or perhaps even entirely non-existent.
Is unjustified.
The brain is plastic, do you agree? It's not really up for agreement, I'm just gauging your understanding of the subject.
Since the brain is plastic, and 5/6ths of the brain completes development postnatally, neuroscientists for the last 15-20 years - since the first bush proclaimed the 90's to be the decade of the brain - have been pretty much studying this process in exquisitely fine detail. What happens to the brain of the growing infant? What are the stages it passes through? This process involves correlating brain development with changes in infant behaviour.
For example, in the first month of life, a child's cortical awareness is pretty much limited to tactile sensations. Thus, HOW YOU HOLD AND TOUCH the baby is what the growing infants brain takes in and processes. If you're a loving, you will caress it and attend to its needs.
What do you think would happen to a baby whose efforts to engage aren't met? Lets say the baby makes a smile at mommy, and mommy doesn't reciprocate? Or, conversely, lets say mommy is chronically depressed, going through post-partum depression. The facial cue the baby is chronically exposed to is sadness, dejection, moodiness, stress. How do you think the infant processes this information?
Attachment theory has been so developed that we now have 4 different models for attachment. Each type is the result of intersubjective dynamics occurring between the neurobiologically developed limbic system of the mother and the neurobiologically developing limbic system of the baby; the mother ad baby literally form a symbiotic superordinate structure where the mothers nervous system "imprints" information into the babies nervous system.
The 4 attachment styles are: secure, insecure-avoidant, insecure-ambivalent, and disorganized-disoriented. Each of these attachment styles influence early emotional brain development, thereby biasing later development.
Now, to go to grade school.
As said, the brain is plastic. It responds to external stimulus, and "matches" that stimulus by promoting growth in brain regions relevant to the stimulus. For example. The securely attached child's growing brain is producing bioamines like dopamine in the anterior reticular formation which influence cortical and limbic processing. A "pathway" develops. Externally, the behaviour is the mother-infant dyad in play. Internally, the babies brain is being hardwired for higher metabolic levels of activity.
The orbitfrontal cortex is pretty much the gateway to emotional and cognitive brain maturation.
If you take how we raise kids nowadays, what is thew problem? Reading, Writing and Math do not promote social awareness. They are "external" oriented skills. An external orientation - as a cognitive orientation - strengthens neurobiological pathways that link the 5 exteroceptive senses with the frontal lobes. Attention is now "cued" in this direction.
So, when our attention is being groomed in one way, its not very surprising when we discover that children end up bullying each other a lot.
But when you introduce mindfulness, you really change how the maturing brain is hardwired. Mindfulness strengthens orbitofrontal activity; which in effect elicits synaptogenesis, myelinogenesis, and neurogenesis - an increase in the amount of synapses between neurons, an increase in the amount of myelin coating axons, and an increase in neurones themselves.
A mind which is told to become more aware of it's own internal sensations is increasing connectivity between oribtofrontal areas, motor and sensory cortical areas, limbic areas, and autonomic areas. By doing this the individual becomes more aware of body and emotional sensation.
Now, an increase in this type of sensation "primes" - a great idea in cognitive science - other types of neurobiological processes.
This is a good example. When a child feels an emotion, we can say to him: how does it feel in your body? When you do this, you create a cognitive correlation between emotional state and body state. Since this practice is being done in groups, all the kids can observe the correlations other kids make between their emotions and body states.
This awareness kicks into gear the brains cognitive association mechanisms. Now, when a kid "sees" another kid exhibit painful body language: a look of fear, shame, anxiety, which is shown in their slouched posture, tightened shoulders, cringe on their face - the awareness of an emotion tags along with it.
It is rather ridiculous that we've spent so much time strengthening left brain practices at the expense of right brain skills. To make a better society, we need to concentrate on this. And indeed, it IS going to happen. This isn't merely a hope of mine: it's already happening in many different districts in North America and other countries.
I'm not following your reasoning in the least. Are you suggesting that all bullies would be labeled with ASPD, or that bullies account for more than 1.5% of the population?
Don't treat me like an idiot, kid.
Yea, and so what does this have to do with the subject?!
How is this related again?
Why? I learned this all long ago.
Are you serious? You think that teaching reading, wrting, and math cause bullying. HAHAHAHA!!!
Awesome, now I'm sure you're aware that the orbitofrontal cortex isn't the only brain region needed to form emotional empathy. Besides, this ability is naturally limited genetically. You can strengthen a skill, but the innate talent level will remain fixed.
Seriously, this works with some people. I got this. It's simply ridiculous to think that it can be extended to everyone. Psychopaths will not learn through bodily awareness. They will just laugh at this notion, and continue to mess with you. It's just naive idealism that you're spouting.
That doesn't mean they care.
Oh geez, the left brain right brain nonsense. I'm so not getting into that myth with you. You just need to teach me, a left hander, how to be more "right brained" .... right?
Astrocyte
reply to post by webedoomed
I'm not following your reasoning in the least. Are you suggesting that all bullies would be labeled with ASPD, or that bullies account for more than 1.5% of the population?
Huh? Try to follow.
People with anti-social personality disorder make up 1.5-2% of the general population.
The mistake in logic you made is that you, for some strange reason, correlated bullying with antisocial personality disorder. People can bully without being clinically unable to link emotions with awareness. I.e. to be cognitively empathetic, without an emotional experience of empathy.
Perhaps you might have this problem? jk
Then don't pretend to be an expert in this subject.
I guess you are a total immature prick.
The brain simply matches whats happening in its environment
Yes, in addition to being an environmental scientist, you're also a brain researcher!
I suppose you've read all the literature in interpersonal neuroscience/psychology/Psychotherapy, ala Allan Schore, Daniel Siegel, Stephen Porges, Alan Fogel, Pat Ogden, Diana Fosha, Arlene Montgomery, Louis Cozolino, Peter Levine, Jaak Panskepp, Susan Hart, Massimo Amanti etc
We can't all be knowledgeable in everything. We should defer to people whom we know - and should have the maturity and humility to know - know more than ourselves.
If you think this bothers me, you're wrong.
Not only is it immature, but its really pathetic. For an adult to act this way? It's the exaggerated emphasis on the external oriented subjects i.e. reading/writing/math that leads to a lack of internal insight into the states of others, and thus, to bullying.
No. The orbitofrontal cortex is where attention occurs. Anterior parts of this area "link up" with subcortical areas, like the insula and striatum, as well as corpus collasum, when mindfulness is practiced.
As for it being "limited genetically". Are you at all aware that there probably millions of people in the world who have "processed" traumatized memories? Have literally changed their brains, maximized please, peace and a sense of well being? What the hell do you think is happening when this occurs? Mindfulness, in cases such as these, literally induces gene transcription, protein production i.e. causes epigenetic changes that allow certain "activated" genes to become deactivated by the brain.
This, of course, again, is due to your basic lack of knowledge of what you're talking about. All the research into this area shows that stress is not hardwired in genes, but is due to epigenetic markers in the cell. This is how we are able to essentially modulate affect states.
In anycase, you really haven't an idea what your talking about. Stick to environmental science
And psychpaths, as I mentioned, makeup a very small minority of the population. 1.5-2%.
Are you a sociopath by any change? You seem to have a difficult time understanding how human empathy works.
When I feel the pain in another person, yes, I care. It pains me to know they are hurting. There pain is producing a very strong representation in my own mind. Yes. Care. I care because I don't like how it feels, and I know my own actions can reduce the feeling.
Astrocyte
reply to post by webedoomed
Left brain and right brain isn't a myth. The right brain is dominant for emotional processing, while left brain is dominant for linguistic processing.
Night Star
I went to a Catholic school for like 5 years and there was zero tolerance for bullying. If you so much as spoke badly about another person, the entire class got lectured. We were taught early on both at home and at school to have compassion and respect for others. It worked wonders. If a child had problems at home, they could speak privately with a teacher.
Astrocyte
You know what the only solution to your concerns with "duality" are? Go to a quiet place, and meditate there all day, everyday. Really build up the neuronal interconnections within your prefrontal lobe (monks have a great deal of activity occurring in that brain area when they are under an fMRI scan). So long as your brain isn't taking in environmental stimuli, you can keep yourself in a non-dual state of awareness.
But as soon as you begin interacting with an "other" - a non "I" - your brain is no longer gonna be so friendly. It's gonna shoot chemicals that you didn't want released; you'll get hungry when your body isn't fed; you'll get sleepy if your brain isn't adequately replenished through sleep.
I stick with it and share it because it is the only cure.
Anyways. Your posts can sometimes be interesting, but more often than not you get completely caught up in your philosophical delusions about "non-duality" etc, and you become very confused and unable to process simple facts.
I suffered from an abusive childhood and suffered because of it through adulthood and found the cure - if it worked here - I will carry on promoting it.
The problem with your awareness itsnowagain is your sheer myopia - your belief that you know all you need to know.
Can you see this 'mind' inside a body within an environment?
Astrocyte
A mind inside a body within an environment has to "figure" out the environment, and the environment certainly offers us ways to increase and maximize happiness, and decrease unhappiness.
All children are victims (to some extent) - victims of bigger, stronger people (parents) - parents tell their children to be 'good' and not 'bad' - children can often grow up feeling bad. Is it possible to save the children from parents? I know that when I went through counselling I too thought I could save children from going through it - but it is not possible - it is all part and parcel of this life. And when it has been seen with clarity it is seen to be just amazing - one has to go through the dark tunnel to get to the light.
So this thing you mentioned about a "victim" mentality - I'm not even understanding the point of mentioning that. What do you mean "teach children not to get into the victim mentality"?
Keep in mind that right brain - left brain interactions shatter your hope of living in a "non-dual" world. The right brain is non - dual. But than our brains need to translate that into linear packets of information that can be "conveyed". This is what the left brain is for: it enables us to connect.
Astrocyte
Are you a sociopath by any change? You seem to have a difficult time understanding how human empathy works.
When I feel the pain in another person, yes, I care. It pains me to know they are hurting. There pain is producing a very strong representation in my own mind. Yes. Care. I care because I don't like how it feels, and I know my own actions can reduce the feeling.
I can steal without being a thief, or lie without being a liar. A bully is antisocial. We seem to have different standards for what constitutes being a bully.
Most people mess around from time to time. If you're trying to limit the playfulness of children, that's cool, I guess.
Obviously, neither of us are!
I have a very general knowledge of a wide variety of subjects.
Nope. See above.
You may be onto something, though I would again suggest this is more playfulness than true bullying.
A real bully will not be so swayed by reading a book, and doing some arithmetic.
They were usually creative+ intuitive, or "right brained" as you would call it.
significantly reduced volume within their amygdala?
They're evolving. Good for them. Are you aware that you can try the same techniques on a hundred different PTSD individuals, and only some will have successful therapy?
Or that only one of two twins, experiencing the same trauma, may develop PTSD?
You can't unretard a mentally challenged individual with mindfullness, or through a diet. Limitations do exist.
Look, I don't know what kind of school you went to, but my school had very few bullies. There's no way they were more than 2%. Also, that number seems to vary from source to source.