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Mindfulness In Schools

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posted on Dec, 23 2013 @ 10:37 PM
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reply to post by Itisnowagain
 





When the system has been firmly implanted and one has become an adult and has left the confines of the physical cage - home environment and school environment - one then gets other authority figures. A wife/husband tells you how you should be - the job tells you how to be - the media and society tell you how you should be (programming). One has learned early on that one must be a certain way - one has learned to be a victim, one has learned that there is always authority 'out there'.



Here are some facts - and no complaining about the "system" - by having bodies and brains we are always - ALWAYS - "inhibited" by basic constraints like having an endocrine system that carries hormones throughout the body - and these hormonses "stay" in the body for a certain period, FORCING some element of experience into cognitive awareness.

You know what the only solution to your concerns with "duality" are? Go to a quiet place, and meditate there all day, everyday. Really build up the neuronal interconnections within your prefrontal lobe (monks have a great deal of activity occurring in that brain area when they are under an fMRI scan). So long as your brain isn't taking in environmental stimuli, you can keep yourself in a non-dual state of awareness.

But as soon as you begin interacting with an "other" - a non "I" - your brain is no longer gonna be so friendly. It's gonna shoot chemicals that you didn't want released; you'll get hungry when your body isn't fed; you'll get sleepy if your brain isn't adequately replenished through sleep.

A mind inside a body within an environment has to "figure" out the environment, and the environment certainly offers us ways to increase and maximize happiness, and decrease unhappiness.

So this thing you mentioned about a "victim" mentality - I'm not even understanding the point of mentioning that. What do you mean "teach children not to get into the victim mentality"?

Anyways. Your posts can sometimes be interesting, but more often than not you get completely caught up in your philosophical delusions about "non-duality" etc, and you become very confused and unable to process simple facts.

Keep in mind that right brain - left brain interactions shatter your hope of living in a "non-dual" world. The right brain is non - dual. But than our brains need to translate that into linear packets of information that can be "conveyed". This is what the left brain is for: it enables us to connect.

If I did not have a face that made had the capacity to express different emotions, you wouldn't notice whether I was happy or sad. If you were seeing things "non-dually" you wouldn't even have a reaction to begin with.

The brain and body bring pure spiritual reality into concrete factuality. We need to negotiate this terrain. We need to realize that CHOICES exist in this terrain, and we have no choice at all but to learn how to choose.

if we don't choose, if w maintain dimwitted fantasies about "non-duality" - if we condescendingly recommend that people just not take on a "victim mindset", we act so incredibly unwisely.

Notice how physical reality often follows patterns? Like the spiral, for example? Mental and moral reality follows such a pattern as well. Compassion for example is a LOGICAL way to act when understood from a HOLISTIC perspective. It both helps myself, helps others. It decreases suffering and increases feelings of wellbeing. It is so simple. This is the right brain influencing the left brain to choose - choose compassion.

I've already gone into the neuroscience of why mindfulness primes certain right brain regions so that kids naturally become more aware, more mindful, of why it feels good to be compassionate; why it is worthwhile to promote solidarity.

The problem with your awareness itsnowagain is your sheer myopia - your belief that you know all you need to know. How can we tackle global warming, if not through increasing awareness of it? How can we can increase awareness of it, if people simply lack the right brain social mindfulness that environmentalism requires?

Mindfulness NEEDS To be taught in our schools. Its not only a social need, but an existential need. The health of our society and planet literally depends on it.
edit on 23-12-2013 by Astrocyte because: (no reason given)




posted on Dec, 23 2013 @ 11:07 PM
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I don't buy the premise. A bully doesn't bully because he doesn't realize the feeling he's inflicting on another individual. That may happen in certain instances, but in general, bullies do what they do because it causes them pleasure at the expense of anothers dissatisfaction. It's called sadism, and is a very real phenomena with antisocial individuals.

There is no amount of "mindfulness" that would change this kind of bully. Cognitive empathy, and even sympathy is intact, it's the emotional empathy that is lacking, or perhaps even entirely non-existent.


Also, "increasing awareness" is but a stepping stone that may wobble, and falter completely. There are plenty of examples.

Geenpeace started with good intentions. Now it seems all about the monies. Who here doesn't know about global warming and already have a well defined opinion on the matter? It's not awareness that needs to increase, it's intellect and scientific knowledge.

Or you can look at cancer organizations... autism organizations... you think I'm about to spend a freaking penny on "promoting awareness". Makes no friggin' sense! Who doesn't know about autism, or cancer... ?? An eagle turned vulture.
edit on 23-12-2013 by webedoomed because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 24 2013 @ 12:35 AM
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reply to post by webedoomed
 


I sort of made this threads to increase awareness of the need, not to put the claim to the test - of people who frankly have a very shallow knowledge, and so awareness, of exactly how intersubjective dynamics shape brain function, and so, cognitive awareness.

Let me tell you, its an exceedingly complicated subject! When I became interested in interpersonal psychology/neuroscience years ago, I couldn't believe that how much my understanding would change.

So, what you've written is essentially wrong.

As a matter of statistical fact, only about 1 to 1.5 % of individuals have anti-social personality disorder i.e. are clinically sociopathic. These kids, true, cannot exactly be molded. There is something genetically wrong with them. Cortical areas do not link up with subcortical areas, so the anterior insula (where representations are made for emotions) might be the place in the brain where the problem lies.

But since the vast majority of people aren't in this category, your claim:



There is no amount of "mindfulness" that would change this kind of bully. Cognitive empathy, and even sympathy is intact, it's the emotional empathy that is lacking, or perhaps even entirely non-existent.


Is unjustified.

The brain is plastic, do you agree? It's not really up for agreement, I'm just gauging your understanding of the subject.

Since the brain is plastic, and 5/6ths of the brain completes development postnatally, neuroscientists for the last 15-20 years - since the first bush proclaimed the 90's to be the decade of the brain - have been pretty much studying this process in exquisitely fine detail. What happens to the brain of the growing infant? What are the stages it passes through? This process involves correlating brain development with changes in infant behaviour.

For example, in the first month of life, a child's cortical awareness is pretty much limited to tactile sensations. Thus, HOW YOU HOLD AND TOUCH the baby is what the growing infants brain takes in and processes. If you're a loving, you will caress it and attend to its needs.

In the next few months, the growing infants brain undergoes greater specification. Now it begins to feel emotions and seeks to engage with the primary caregiver.

What do you think would happen to a baby whose efforts to engage aren't met? Lets say the baby makes a smile at mommy, and mommy doesn't reciprocate? Or, conversely, lets say mommy is chronically depressed, going through post-partum depression. The facial cue the baby is chronically exposed to is sadness, dejection, moodiness, stress. How do you think the infant processes this information?

Attachment theory has been so developed that we now have 4 different models for attachment. Each type is the result of intersubjective dynamics occurring between the neurobiologically developed limbic system of the mother and the neurobiologically developing limbic system of the baby; the mother ad baby literally form a symbiotic superordinate structure where the mothers nervous system "imprints" information into the babies nervous system.

The 4 attachment styles are: secure, insecure-avoidant, insecure-ambivalent, and disorganized-disoriented. Each of these attachment styles influence early emotional brain development, thereby biasing later development.

Now, to go to grade school.

As said, the brain is plastic. It responds to external stimulus, and "matches" that stimulus by promoting growth in brain regions relevant to the stimulus. For example. The securely attached child's growing brain is producing bioamines like dopamine in the anterior reticular formation which influence cortical and limbic processing. A "pathway" develops. Externally, the behaviour is the mother-infant dyad in play. Internally, the babies brain is being hardwired for higher metabolic levels of activity.

The orbitfrontal cortex is pretty much the gateway to emotional and cognitive brain maturation.

If you take how we raise kids nowadays, what is thew problem? Reading, Writing and Math do not promote social awareness. They are "external" oriented skills. An external orientation - as a cognitive orientation - strengthens neurobiological pathways that link the 5 exteroceptive senses with the frontal lobes. Attention is now "cued" in this direction.

So, when our attention is being groomed in one way, its not very surprising when we discover that children end up bullying each other a lot.

But when you introduce mindfulness, you really change how the maturing brain is hardwired. Mindfulness strengthens orbitofrontal activity; which in effect elicits synaptogenesis, myelinogenesis, and neurogenesis - an increase in the amount of synapses between neurons, an increase in the amount of myelin coating axons, and an increase in neurones themselves, within the orbitofrontal cortex itself.

A mind which is told to become more aware of it's own internal sensations is increasing connectivity between oribtofrontal areas, motor and sensory cortical areas, limbic areas, and autonomic areas. By doing this the individual becomes more aware of body and emotional sensation.

An increase in this type of sensation "primes" - a great idea in cognitive science - other types of neurobiological processes.

This is a good example. When a child feels an emotion, we can say to him: how does it feel in your body? When you do this, you create a cognitive correlation between emotional state and body state. Since this practice is being done in groups, all the kids can observe the correlations other kids make between their emotions and body states.

This awareness kicks into gear the brains cognitive association mechanisms. Now, when a kid sees another kid exhibit painful body language: a look of fear, shame, anxiety, which is shown in their slouched posture, tightened shoulders, cringe on their face - the awareness of an emotion tags along with it.

In the above example, the hippocampus (memory), insula (emotional memory), visual cortex (sight), parietal cortex (somatosensory association), amygdala, thalamus (emotion), reticular formation (body information), and other areas combine to produce a neurological pattern that informs the orbitofrontal cortex (attention) of the emotional state of the kid being bullied.

The simple reason why this doesn't happen more often is because we have never made an effort to expand this awareness in our children.
edit on 24-12-2013 by Astrocyte because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 24 2013 @ 12:48 AM
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Astrocyte
reply to post by webedoomed
 


As a matter of statistical fact, only about 1 to 1.5 % of individuals have anti-social personality disorder i.e. are clinically sociopathic. These kids, true, cannot exactly be molded. There is something genetically wrong with them. Cortical areas do not link up with subcortical areas, so the anterior insula (where representations are made for emotions) might be the place in the brain where the problem lies.

But since the vast majority of people aren't in this category, your claim:



There is no amount of "mindfulness" that would change this kind of bully. Cognitive empathy, and even sympathy is intact, it's the emotional empathy that is lacking, or perhaps even entirely non-existent.


Is unjustified.


I'm not following your reasoning in the least. Are you suggesting that all bullies would be labeled with ASPD, or that bullies account for more than 1.5% of the population?


The brain is plastic, do you agree? It's not really up for agreement, I'm just gauging your understanding of the subject.


Don't treat me like an idiot, kid.


Since the brain is plastic, and 5/6ths of the brain completes development postnatally, neuroscientists for the last 15-20 years - since the first bush proclaimed the 90's to be the decade of the brain - have been pretty much studying this process in exquisitely fine detail. What happens to the brain of the growing infant? What are the stages it passes through? This process involves correlating brain development with changes in infant behaviour.


Yea, and so what does this have to do with the subject?!


For example, in the first month of life, a child's cortical awareness is pretty much limited to tactile sensations. Thus, HOW YOU HOLD AND TOUCH the baby is what the growing infants brain takes in and processes. If you're a loving, you will caress it and attend to its needs.


How is this related again?



What do you think would happen to a baby whose efforts to engage aren't met? Lets say the baby makes a smile at mommy, and mommy doesn't reciprocate? Or, conversely, lets say mommy is chronically depressed, going through post-partum depression. The facial cue the baby is chronically exposed to is sadness, dejection, moodiness, stress. How do you think the infant processes this information?


Must I keep repeating myself?!


Attachment theory has been so developed that we now have 4 different models for attachment. Each type is the result of intersubjective dynamics occurring between the neurobiologically developed limbic system of the mother and the neurobiologically developing limbic system of the baby; the mother ad baby literally form a symbiotic superordinate structure where the mothers nervous system "imprints" information into the babies nervous system.

The 4 attachment styles are: secure, insecure-avoidant, insecure-ambivalent, and disorganized-disoriented. Each of these attachment styles influence early emotional brain development, thereby biasing later development.

Now, to go to grade school.


Why? I learned this all long ago.


As said, the brain is plastic. It responds to external stimulus, and "matches" that stimulus by promoting growth in brain regions relevant to the stimulus. For example. The securely attached child's growing brain is producing bioamines like dopamine in the anterior reticular formation which influence cortical and limbic processing. A "pathway" develops. Externally, the behaviour is the mother-infant dyad in play. Internally, the babies brain is being hardwired for higher metabolic levels of activity.

The orbitfrontal cortex is pretty much the gateway to emotional and cognitive brain maturation.


Seriously, you could have condensed all of the last several paragraphs into a few words. This is just extra jargon for no good reason.


If you take how we raise kids nowadays, what is thew problem? Reading, Writing and Math do not promote social awareness. They are "external" oriented skills. An external orientation - as a cognitive orientation - strengthens neurobiological pathways that link the 5 exteroceptive senses with the frontal lobes. Attention is now "cued" in this direction.

So, when our attention is being groomed in one way, its not very surprising when we discover that children end up bullying each other a lot.


Are you serious? You think that teaching reading, wrting, and math cause bullying. HAHAHAHA!!!


But when you introduce mindfulness, you really change how the maturing brain is hardwired. Mindfulness strengthens orbitofrontal activity; which in effect elicits synaptogenesis, myelinogenesis, and neurogenesis - an increase in the amount of synapses between neurons, an increase in the amount of myelin coating axons, and an increase in neurones themselves.


Awesome, now I'm sure you're aware that the orbitofrontal cortex isn't the only brain region needed to form emotional empathy. Besides, this ability is naturally limited genetically. You can strengthen a skill, but the innate talent level will remain fixed.


A mind which is told to become more aware of it's own internal sensations is increasing connectivity between oribtofrontal areas, motor and sensory cortical areas, limbic areas, and autonomic areas. By doing this the individual becomes more aware of body and emotional sensation.

Now, an increase in this type of sensation "primes" - a great idea in cognitive science - other types of neurobiological processes.


Awesome, and how does this lead to a bully becoming less sadistic?!


This is a good example. When a child feels an emotion, we can say to him: how does it feel in your body? When you do this, you create a cognitive correlation between emotional state and body state. Since this practice is being done in groups, all the kids can observe the correlations other kids make between their emotions and body states.


Seriously, this works with some people. I got this. It's simply ridiculous to think that it can be extended to everyone. Psychopaths will not learn through bodily awareness. They will just laugh at this notion, and continue to mess with you. It's just naive idealism that you're spouting.


This awareness kicks into gear the brains cognitive association mechanisms. Now, when a kid "sees" another kid exhibit painful body language: a look of fear, shame, anxiety, which is shown in their slouched posture, tightened shoulders, cringe on their face - the awareness of an emotion tags along with it.


That doesn't mean they care.


It is rather ridiculous that we've spent so much time strengthening left brain practices at the expense of right brain skills. To make a better society, we need to concentrate on this. And indeed, it IS going to happen. This isn't merely a hope of mine: it's already happening in many different districts in North America and other countries.


Oh geez, the left brain right brain nonsense. I'm so not getting into that myth with you. You just need to teach me, a left hander, how to be more "right brained" .... right?

hahaha!!



posted on Dec, 24 2013 @ 01:20 AM
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reply to post by webedoomed
 





I'm not following your reasoning in the least. Are you suggesting that all bullies would be labeled with ASPD, or that bullies account for more than 1.5% of the population?


Huh? Try to follow.

People with anti-social personality disorder make up 1.5-2% of the general population.

The mistake in logic you made is that you, for some strange reason, correlated bullying with antisocial personality disorder. People can bully without being clinically unable to link emotions with awareness. I.e. to be cognitively empathetic, without an emotional experience of empathy.

Perhaps you might have this problem?
jk



Don't treat me like an idiot, kid.


Then don't pretend to be an expert in this subject.





Yea, and so what does this have to do with the subject?!



Experience Dependent Brain Plasticity. Link




How is this related again?


I guess you are a total immature prick.

It was to explain to you how external information - in this case, how mom relates with baby - directs brain development.

The brain simply matches whats happening in its environment




Why? I learned this all long ago.



Yes, in addition to being an environmental scientist, you're also a brain researcher!

I suppose you've read all the literature in interpersonal neuroscience/psychology/Psychotherapy, ala Allan Schore, Daniel Siegel, Stephen Porges, Alan Fogel, Pat Ogden, Diana Fosha, Arlene Montgomery, Louis Cozolino, Peter Levine, Jaak Panskepp, Susan Hart, Massimo Amanti etc

We can't all be knowledgeable in everything. We should defer to people whom we know - and should have the maturity and humility to know - know more than ourselves.

Common sense.





Are you serious? You think that teaching reading, wrting, and math cause bullying. HAHAHAHA!!!



If you think this bothers me, you're wrong.

Not only is it immature, but its really pathetic. For an adult to act this way? It's the exaggerated emphasis on the external oriented subjects i.e. reading/writing/math that leads to a lack of internal insight into the states of others, and thus, to bullying.



Awesome, now I'm sure you're aware that the orbitofrontal cortex isn't the only brain region needed to form emotional empathy. Besides, this ability is naturally limited genetically. You can strengthen a skill, but the innate talent level will remain fixed.


No. The orbitofrontal cortex is where attention occurs. Anterior parts of this area "link up" with subcortical areas, like the insula and striatum, as well as corpus collasum, when mindfulness is practiced.

As for it being "limited genetically". Are you at all aware that there probably millions of people in the world who have "processed" traumatized memories? Have literally changed their brains, maximized please, peace and a sense of well being? What the hell do you think is happening when this occurs? Mindfulness, in cases such as these, can literally induce gene transcription, protein production i.e. causes epigenetic changes that allow certain "activated" genes to become deactivated by the brain.

This, of course, again, is due to your basic lack of knowledge of what you're talking about. All the research into this area shows that stress is not hardwired in genes, but is due to epigenetic markers in the cell (that people inherit). This is basically how we are able to essentially modulate affect states. How someone who has lived a stressful life can STRENGTHEN prefrontal capacities via mindfulness practices, and gradually modulate themselves to a point where they are mostly happy all the time.



Seriously, this works with some people. I got this. It's simply ridiculous to think that it can be extended to everyone. Psychopaths will not learn through bodily awareness. They will just laugh at this notion, and continue to mess with you. It's just naive idealism that you're spouting.


And psychpaths, as I mentioned, makeup a very small minority of the population. 1.5-2%.

They are the "duds" we need to stay aware of, no doubt.




That doesn't mean they care.


Are you a sociopath by any change? You seem to have a difficult time understanding how human empathy works.

When I feel the pain in another person, yes, I care. It pains me to know they are hurting. There pain is producing a very strong representation in my own mind. Yes. Care. I care because I don't like how it feels, and I know my own actions can reduce the feeling.




Oh geez, the left brain right brain nonsense. I'm so not getting into that myth with you. You just need to teach me, a left hander, how to be more "right brained" .... right?



Sheeeeewwww! Git out! Go back to your own threads!

Left brain and right brain isn't a myth. The right brain is dominant for emotional processing, while left brain is dominant for linguistic processing.
edit on 24-12-2013 by Astrocyte because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 24 2013 @ 01:48 AM
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Astrocyte
reply to post by webedoomed
 





I'm not following your reasoning in the least. Are you suggesting that all bullies would be labeled with ASPD, or that bullies account for more than 1.5% of the population?


Huh? Try to follow.

People with anti-social personality disorder make up 1.5-2% of the general population.

The mistake in logic you made is that you, for some strange reason, correlated bullying with antisocial personality disorder. People can bully without being clinically unable to link emotions with awareness. I.e. to be cognitively empathetic, without an emotional experience of empathy.


I can steal without being a thief, or lie without being a liar. A bully is antisocial. We seem to have different standards for what constitutes being a bully. Most people mess around from time to time. If you're trying to limit the playfulness of children, that's cool, I guess.


Perhaps you might have this problem?
jk


I play and jab around, but am far from a bully. Very touchy feely, totally hugable, and am hyper aware of bodily sensations




Then don't pretend to be an expert in this subject.


Obviously, neither of us are!




I guess you are a total immature prick.


Nah, I get it, it's just inapplicable to the subject. Your subject title is, "Mindfulness in Schools". Then you're talking about development in infants, which you admit is where most of the wiring takes place. Has the definition of an infant changed in such a short period of time? Isn't it birth - 2?? How does the state of this initial wiring relate to the changes we can do when they are school age?! The initial wiring, plus genetic propensity, set the stage for a true bully.




The brain simply matches whats happening in its environment


I get this. Genetic propensity interacting with environmental stimuli.




Yes, in addition to being an environmental scientist, you're also a brain researcher!


I have a very general knowledge of a wide variety of subjects.


I suppose you've read all the literature in interpersonal neuroscience/psychology/Psychotherapy, ala Allan Schore, Daniel Siegel, Stephen Porges, Alan Fogel, Pat Ogden, Diana Fosha, Arlene Montgomery, Louis Cozolino, Peter Levine, Jaak Panskepp, Susan Hart, Massimo Amanti etc


Nope. See above.


We can't all be knowledgeable in everything. We should defer to people whom we know - and should have the maturity and humility to know - know more than ourselves.


Knowledge is cool and all, but I prefer understanding
You gotta have a bit of the former, to develop the latter, and that's all I stick to... a little bit and that whole "right brained" gap-filling, intuition, hahaha!!



If you think this bothers me, you're wrong.

Not only is it immature, but its really pathetic. For an adult to act this way? It's the exaggerated emphasis on the external oriented subjects i.e. reading/writing/math that leads to a lack of internal insight into the states of others, and thus, to bullying.


I do find this interesting. You may be onto something, though I would again suggest this is more playfulness than true bullying. A real bully will not be so swayed by reading a book, and doing some arithmetic. The bullies I knew were horrible at what you would erroneously consider to be "left brain" activities. They were usually creative+ intuitive, or "right brained" as you would call it.



No. The orbitofrontal cortex is where attention occurs. Anterior parts of this area "link up" with subcortical areas, like the insula and striatum, as well as corpus collasum, when mindfulness is practiced.


Again, knowledge without understanding. This method you describe, helps some who are merely lacking in stimulus. It starts with the attention, and travels back further into other brain regions. It's not the orbitofrontal cortex alone involved in emotional empathy, but without the wiring between each side of the OFC and the amygdala, it will not be intact. What do you do for someone with a significantly reduced volume within their amygdala? It can be quite misshaped on top of this! Not all to do with OFC, or awareness, but if the awareness is compromised, so will the system regarding emotional empathy.


As for it being "limited genetically". Are you at all aware that there probably millions of people in the world who have "processed" traumatized memories? Have literally changed their brains, maximized please, peace and a sense of well being? What the hell do you think is happening when this occurs? Mindfulness, in cases such as these, literally induces gene transcription, protein production i.e. causes epigenetic changes that allow certain "activated" genes to become deactivated by the brain.


They're evolving. Good for them. Are you aware that you can try the same techniques on a hundred different PTSD individuals, and only some will have successful therapy? Or that only one of two twins, experiencing the same trauma, may develop PTSD? Yes, genetic limitations. Epigenetics means there is an ability to further express, or silence a gene, which means a different rate of protein production. It's wiggle room, but the base genetic sequence never changes. You can't unretard a mentally challenged individual with mindfullness, or through a diet. Limitations do exist.


This, of course, again, is due to your basic lack of knowledge of what you're talking about. All the research into this area shows that stress is not hardwired in genes, but is due to epigenetic markers in the cell. This is how we are able to essentially modulate affect states.


Nah, you assume to much of me. That's all



In anycase, you really haven't an idea what your talking about. Stick to environmental science


No thanks! I choose to continue to call out nonsense.




And psychpaths, as I mentioned, makeup a very small minority of the population. 1.5-2%.


Look, I don't know what kind of school you went to, but my school had very few bullies. There's no way they were more than 2%. Also, that number seems to vary from source to source.




Are you a sociopath by any change? You seem to have a difficult time understanding how human empathy works.


Not even close. You just aren't following me.


When I feel the pain in another person, yes, I care. It pains me to know they are hurting. There pain is producing a very strong representation in my own mind. Yes. Care. I care because I don't like how it feels, and I know my own actions can reduce the feeling.


Good for you. I can choose to care, or not. It really depends on a variety of factors. This wasn't meant to be personal, but an accurate representation of how a psychopath/bully would act.
edit on 24-12-2013 by webedoomed because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 24 2013 @ 01:54 AM
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Astrocyte
reply to post by webedoomed
 


Left brain and right brain isn't a myth. The right brain is dominant for emotional processing, while left brain is dominant for linguistic processing.


Sorry I ran out of room, but that is absolutely incorrect, and shows that YOU are not nearly as experienced on this matter as you believe yourself to be.



posted on Dec, 24 2013 @ 02:09 AM
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Night Star
I went to a Catholic school for like 5 years and there was zero tolerance for bullying. If you so much as spoke badly about another person, the entire class got lectured. We were taught early on both at home and at school to have compassion and respect for others. It worked wonders. If a child had problems at home, they could speak privately with a teacher.


That is cool, Night Star. Notice how the class was lectured - but no one was arrested and it was probably explained why bullying was bad.
edit on 24amTue, 24 Dec 2013 02:10:15 -0600kbamkAmerica/Chicago by darkbake because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 24 2013 @ 02:52 AM
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reply to post by Astrocyte
 


If a bully is sure of himself and others do not agree with what he says - he then calls people hurtful names.
A person with a strong sense of self will not turn into a victim just because someone calls them names.

A bully may have loads of ammunition (information on a subject) and keep hitting people with it - he doesn't seem to be able to hear other points of view.

No one will want to cure themselves of their conditioning until the conditioning becomes a real problem. Until it is a real problem it will feel as though it is a strength.

Here is a great video where David Lynch promotes Transcendental Meditation - he also wants it taught in every school.

edit on 24-12-2013 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 24 2013 @ 03:08 AM
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Astrocyte
You know what the only solution to your concerns with "duality" are? Go to a quiet place, and meditate there all day, everyday. Really build up the neuronal interconnections within your prefrontal lobe (monks have a great deal of activity occurring in that brain area when they are under an fMRI scan). So long as your brain isn't taking in environmental stimuli, you can keep yourself in a non-dual state of awareness.

Non dual awareness is not something that only happens when one is not around 'others'. Although - the realization of non duality will leave one alone - all appears in the one (alone/all one).


But as soon as you begin interacting with an "other" - a non "I" - your brain is no longer gonna be so friendly. It's gonna shoot chemicals that you didn't want released; you'll get hungry when your body isn't fed; you'll get sleepy if your brain isn't adequately replenished through sleep.

See, you live in a world where you are worried about 'interacting' with others - you have a fear of others. Your mind tells you there is something 'out there' to fear - so straight away you are already fearing (victim mentality).
Investigate what 'non duality' is - instead of assuming you know. The realization of oneness is the only cure from the bully/victim state that is 'normal' for individuals.

I know this because I have been through all the books on psychology and through the system of psychotherapy - unfortunately they always treat the 'separate person' - it keeps the person separate. The person feels it has to be a certain way to fit in - it thinks it is bad and wants to be good - it wants to make everything better. When the person has read the books it thinks it can 'cure the world' - the world cannot be cured and the one who has found the end of suffering knows this.


Anyways. Your posts can sometimes be interesting, but more often than not you get completely caught up in your philosophical delusions about "non-duality" etc, and you become very confused and unable to process simple facts.
I stick with it and share it because it is the only cure.


The problem with your awareness itsnowagain is your sheer myopia - your belief that you know all you need to know.
I suffered from an abusive childhood and suffered because of it through adulthood and found the cure - if it worked here - I will carry on promoting it.
Investigate non duality - there can be no conflict when it is found to be one. I do not have to connect to anything because I have found that I am one with all - no fear.


edit on 24-12-2013 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 24 2013 @ 03:34 AM
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Astrocyte
A mind inside a body within an environment has to "figure" out the environment, and the environment certainly offers us ways to increase and maximize happiness, and decrease unhappiness.
Can you see this 'mind' inside a body within an environment?
Look right now and see if you can see a 'mind'. If the mind is working (figuring) in the moment then it is fearful. The mind is minding because it is scared. The mind wants control.
Is there any fear if one just uses the eyes and ears?
If you are seeking happiness and avoiding unhappiness then that is the fear. Wanting something but not something else is the bad feeling one wants to be rid of.
The environment is here but the mind is worried about 'next' and 'before' - this is the fear.


So this thing you mentioned about a "victim" mentality - I'm not even understanding the point of mentioning that. What do you mean "teach children not to get into the victim mentality"?
All children are victims (to some extent) - victims of bigger, stronger people (parents) - parents tell their children to be 'good' and not 'bad' - children can often grow up feeling bad. Is it possible to save the children from parents? I know that when I went through counselling I too thought I could save children from going through it - but it is not possible - it is all part and parcel of this life. And when it has been seen with clarity it is seen to be just amazing - one has to go through the dark tunnel to get to the light.



Keep in mind that right brain - left brain interactions shatter your hope of living in a "non-dual" world. The right brain is non - dual. But than our brains need to translate that into linear packets of information that can be "conveyed". This is what the left brain is for: it enables us to connect.

I keep nothing in mind. Thought appears and then disappears in the space that I am. All appears and disappears in what I am. I hold onto nothing - all is passing.


edit on 24-12-2013 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 24 2013 @ 04:05 AM
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Astrocyte
Are you a sociopath by any change? You seem to have a difficult time understanding how human empathy works.

Empathy is very different from compassion.


When I feel the pain in another person, yes, I care. It pains me to know they are hurting. There pain is producing a very strong representation in my own mind. Yes. Care. I care because I don't like how it feels, and I know my own actions can reduce the feeling.

You cannot feel the pain of another person - you are feeling your own suffering and projecting it outward. It is you who is paining - and instead of seeing your pain you see it 'out there'.
You care because you don't want to feel bad - you think that if you cure the suffering 'out there' then you will no longer suffer.

End the suffering by finding the one that is suffering.

edit on 24-12-2013 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 24 2013 @ 06:33 AM
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posted on Dec, 24 2013 @ 04:26 PM
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reply to post by webedoomed
 





I can steal without being a thief, or lie without being a liar. A bully is antisocial. We seem to have different standards for what constitutes being a bully.



Well were coming from different worlds. You - dissociated from the effects bullying can cause - don't seem to care very much about it.

Listen to the glibness of your statements - you probably don't notice it, because, well, you have your own emotional constitution, and perhaps spending so much time involved in non-social things weakens your sense of the importance of helping other people.

Now. As for this menacing sounding comment:



Most people mess around from time to time. If you're trying to limit the playfulness of children, that's cool, I guess.


I can only shake my head at that. People can have fun without destroying and mutilating the internal reality of someone else. But if your sense of fun involves "messing around" to such a degree, I can promise you, I will be there to make sure you don't do it. I may be only one person, but someone has to be sane - someone has to help those too weakened to help themselves.

As a traumatologist, and as someone who has analyzed children with dissociative tendencies, imagine, from my perspective, what that experience could be like.

When I see a baby who pulls away from his mother; who sits in loneliness and doesn't seem able to engage the emotions within him - or even experiences simultaneous approach-withdraw action tendencies: the mind/emotion wants to go forward, but the body-trauma holds it back.

Seeing this makes you very sensitive to the difficulties of the human situation. If you didn't feel any sense of compassion for such a child, there is something monstrous and dead inside of you. Similarly, if you can't look at an adult, particularly one with relational trauma, and don't see the child that he grew from, you lack an important awareness.




Obviously, neither of us are!


Speak for yourself. On a scale of, lets say 100. I'd be in the 50 region. I'm 28 and have been studying this (in school - unlike yourself) for about 4 years now. You'd be somewhere around 20 or so. You know a bit, probably have read a few books, and now you think you can just pass yourself off as more knowledgeable - or at lease as knowledgeable, as I am.

You're not. Deal with it.




I have a very general knowledge of a wide variety of subjects.



Key word: general.




Nope. See above.


And yet that doesn't call for a modification in behavior? ayeeee, that really pisses me off.

Whats funny is, you'll be stupid like this online, but would be far more aware in a public setting. Why? Because it is shameful to act like an idiot when serious things are being discussed.




You may be onto something, though I would again suggest this is more playfulness than true bullying.


What. are. you. talking. about. ?

I can distinguish playfulness from bullying. You know how we generally distinguish playfulness from bullying? Context. Take family guy. Family guy's humor can be gross - but I enjoy it, because the context - it's all fun and games - permits us to enjoy it.

There's an episode of family guy where the scene begins: Hiroshima, 1945. A japanese man looks upward because he hears a falling projectile. A monkey falls on him. Hilarious. Right?

Now imagine we play that video in hiroshima. Around survivors, around their loved one. Would it be appropriate then? Or perhaps, should we stifle ourselves, our urge to laugh, for their sake?

A mature person recognizes that it's better to be kind and compassionate towards the trauma of Hiroshima than to ignore their sensitivities for the sake of a cheap laugh.




A real bully will not be so swayed by reading a book, and doing some arithmetic.


Buddy. I'm talking about 4 year olds. Mindfulness would of course be introduced to all grades, but it would have a greater impact on the brain development of the younger kids than the older kids.

The effects would be cumulative. The next generation would be more receptive than the one which came before it.



They were usually creative+ intuitive, or "right brained" as you would call it.


Not really. Social awareness is the highlight capacity of right brain functioning. We are not beings living in a vacuum. We live with other creatures, and we have to act in ways that take into regard basic social dynamics.
Mindfulness helps increase awareness of this.




significantly reduced volume within their amygdala?


Are you aware that london cabies have greater neuronal volume in a particular part of their hippocampus? It's all those streets they have to remember.

As I already pointed out, experience dependent plasticity changes brain structure i.e initiates neurogenesis, synaptogenesis, and myeliongenesis.

As for the type of people you're describing i.e. sociopaths, you really like harping on this subject, dont you? Evolution isn't dumb. It may produce "duds" who don't abide by the rules of socializing, but for the most part, the majority of us feel emotionally connected to one another.




They're evolving. Good for them. Are you aware that you can try the same techniques on a hundred different PTSD individuals, and only some will have successful therapy?


I'm a traumatologist. Do you get that? lol Thats actually my area of study? I've read hundreds of books on this subject. I've spent time (at my age) with over a hundred different people with trauma related problems.

Everyone of these people are able to resolve their trauma. Of course, and as Pat Ogden (leading thinker in this area writes in her seminal work "Trauma and the Body":

"The modulation of arousal requires sophisticated mental and physical abilities that traumatized clients often lack to varying degrees, especially when faced with trauma reminders that evoke unconscious procedural learning, action tendencies and extremes of arousal"

It is an exceedingly difficult thing. I would know - I am a trauma survivor; I am someone who has learned to modulate myself down from hyperarousal and up from hypoarousal to that state of "optimal arousal" which typifies the ventral-vagal complex of the social engagement system.

So the issue isn't "if" in the sense of, PTSD patients are biologically incapable of repairing themselves. The issue is, how. How can we strengthen orbitofrontal networks so that thy develop the capacity to better regulate themselves out of hyper and hypo arousal states? The committed ones overcome and experience what trauma doctors call "triumph" - an incredible, truly incredible sight to see. When they no longer deal with the intense trauma related thoughts/emotions and body sensations, and show an increased ability to function in everyday life like everyone else.

Research into trauma is really revolutionizing the fields of interpersonal neuroscience, cognitive science, and positive psychology.




Or that only one of two twins, experiencing the same trauma, may develop PTSD?


I have actually never heard of a case like that. After all, how likely is it that identical twins will have the same exact experiences?

As I mentioned, how people handle stress seems to be coded in epigenes inside the cell body. It's not the



posted on Dec, 24 2013 @ 04:40 PM
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...genes themselves, otherwise people wouldn't have much of a capacity to modulate stress states. But we see all the time that people can go from a state of extreme and constant to stress, to a life completely free of stress.




You can't unretard a mentally challenged individual with mindfullness, or through a diet. Limitations do exist.



LOL. I'm talking about stress management.

Early life experiences that retard proper development are epigenetic, not genetic, conditions.

People with serious genetic disorders - ala genetic - obviously, cannot be helped in this way. This includes all the known genetic disorders, as well as mental disorders like schizophrenia, and severe types of autism.

Though, I'd like to point out, early trials in kids with autism have demonstrated that their social capacities can be increased; not to a perfectly "normal" degree, but to one where they can begin to really sense social factors they didn't before recognize.

Recent research into the neurobiology of emotion and communication has implicated the vagus nerve as the region which modulates social and parasympathetic experiences. The more recently evolved - and uniquely mammalian - ventral tract of the vagus, called the nucleus ambiguus, innervates supra-diaphragmatic regions, such as the facial nerves, as well as the nerves of the inner ear.

This nerve complex - called the ventral vagal complex - facilitates social engagement. It literally includes everything we need to socialize: larynx, pharynx for vocalization; facial muscle to convey emotion; and the detached middle ear bone, which allows us to hear the distinct tonality of the human voice, while blocking out irrelevant sounds.

In Aspergers, something in this brain area is not working right, which makes it very hard for aspergers people to discern meaningful information in facial changes, vocal changes (sarcasm) etc.

So, something seems to be "genetically" wrong in a situation such as this. And yet, significant changes can occur when the child is mindfully directed to expand basic certain capacities.

The childhood educator Barbara Arrowsmith Young has developed a very interesting program (located in toronto) with an impressive success rate - that takes advantage of recent neuroscientific findings into the brains plasticity to develop specific exercises that SNAG (stimulate neuronal activity and growth) the brain to develop in a particular direction.

It's pretty incredible. It's changing how we understand basic learning disorders like dyslexia, for example.

Arrowsmith School




Look, I don't know what kind of school you went to, but my school had very few bullies. There's no way they were more than 2%. Also, that number seems to vary from source to source.


Lol. Bullying is a group phenomenon. Perhaps you should read into how it works. The catalyst may often be sociopathic, but the kids who partake merely do so out of peer pressure.

Mindfulness specificaly seeks to influence these - the majority - of kids.


edit on 24-12-2013 by Astrocyte because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 25 2013 @ 12:54 PM
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reply to post by Astrocyte
 


I'm just going to simply reiterate that you don't really know me, and are making mounds of mindless assumptions about who I am, what I do, and so forth. It's kinda funny, but more sad, tbh.

You also have a clear lack of understanding of how dynamic neural networks are. There is no "right brain", or "left brain" for any kind of generalized activity, whatsoever!! This is 90's style of thinking, and even then many were pointing out just how ridiculous it was.

If you take 100 individuals, and hook them up in a real time brain scan, and have them do the same activity, you will see complex activations over the duration of whatever stimulus/goal they're interacting with, and trying to bring to fruition. You won't see a dominance, per say, but a flow from more activity in the left, frontal, back, right, in flux... it just doesn't stop, and might not even be the same for the exact same individual the next time they repeat the same activity! It's far more fluid than you're making it out to be. Makes me chuckle!

Anyhoo, enjoy the holidays!
edit on 25-12-2013 by webedoomed because: (no reason given)



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