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Pew Statistics: How USA Believers see their "Holy Books"

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posted on Jan, 1 2014 @ 08:43 AM
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sk0rpi0n
reply to post by racasan
 



so no you don’t take the verse literally

Like I said earlier, nowhere did I ever say that poetic expressions are to be taken literally.


Yes the old “save the day” explanation of its poetic – all I am wondering is how come you exclude yourself when you complain about other religious people having to cut in similar “mental filters” to save their book?


It is a legitimate interpretation of a verse that is speaking of a sunset over "black, muddy waters".
And given the actual context of the verse, it fits.



putting verses into his book that are very obviously talking about a flat earth

Care to cite the exact flat earth verses here?


1 Dhul-Qarnain was at a very specific place -the setting place of the sun
2 He found the sun setting in a spring (a small area of water)
3 Dhul-Qarnain found people near to the spring

And mo helps us further (well he helps the atheist, not so much the muslims)
Quran sura 36:38
Pickthall- And the sun runneth on unto a resting-place for him. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Wise

so the Quran is consistent with the views of 7th century cosmology

And before you are tempted to overrule your prophet and chuck this out

Abu Dharr! Do you know where this (sun) goes?" I said, "Allah and His Apostle know best." He said, "It goes and asks permission to prostrate, and it is allowed, and (one day) it, as if being ordered to return whence it came, then it will rise from the west.
Volume 9, Book 93, Number 520:
Narrated Abu Dharr:

The sun rising in the west is an "end times" sign of the for muslims – right?




posted on Jan, 1 2014 @ 08:46 AM
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reply to post by racasan
 


yes the sun rising in the west is a prophecy...

its also happened. One version of it anyway.... interesting you brought that up...



posted on Jan, 1 2014 @ 08:46 AM
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sk0rpi0n
reply to post by racasan
 



Remember to a rational/unbiased eye the Quran is simply a man made document promoting the wishes of a iron age control freak posing as God almighty.

False. Nobody in Islamic history ever posed as God almighty.
Either you lie about Islam or you are ignorant of it.

edit on 1-1-2014 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)


Well you are right there – I should have said mo posed as his god’s mouthpiece



posted on Jan, 1 2014 @ 08:49 AM
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reply to post by OpinionatedB
 


its also happened. One version of it anyway.... interesting you brought that up...

It did? I'd like to hear about that story.
HNY, ALL!!!!



posted on Jan, 1 2014 @ 08:59 AM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 


I don't have it all on this computer. Once I did an entire piece on this hadith found in Shia books...

My books are different from the Sunni books.

But in Shia books, it is written that the sun will rise in the west, but half way (to a full rise) will turn back the way it came. (to quote in english from memory)


Anyway, we say rise in Arabic when we speak of fighting; ie: the Imam Mahdi (atf) will rise, the people rise, in Islam literature whenever something rises it means to FIGHT .... as in war

So... then what does it mean if we take this understanding of rise and apply it to the sun?

Well, then we have to understand what the meaning of the sun might be, obviously the sun in the sky is not going to start a war in the west...

But Japan, the "rising sun".... will...

and in one day, the day of pearl harbor.... the sun rose in the west, and half way to full rise (at just after 10:00 am) they turned back the way they came.

I wrote a whole piece on it many many years ago.. It is interesting indeed.

edit on 1-1-2014 by OpinionatedB because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 1 2014 @ 09:12 AM
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babloyi
reply to post by racasan
 

Hey, I'm all for analysis and investigation of these texts, but using much later, non-scriptural investigations as "proof" is rather silly, whether they purport to "support" the Quran or not.

It'd be like claiming that Christianity demands oppressing the jews and executing heretics, and holds the position that women are weak and irrational and more prone to immorality, and then when asked to provide evidence for this, instead of going back to the Bible, quoting the works of St. Augustine or Thomas Aquinas. They're very INTERESTING, and they definitely support the Bible, but what they thought and what they believed and wrote is irrelevant unless it can be directly sourced from the Bible.


But Christians did all those things, so in the end what does it matter?

Christianity is what ever the Christians say it is and over the last few thousand years it’s evolved a lot in fact its still evolving, I was looking at a thread about a pew report that shows that now many Christians don’t think the bible is literal – imagine how cool it would be if they threw out all the bible and just kept the timeless wisdom of “wouldn’t it be good if we where all nice to each other”

edit on 1-1-2014 by racasan because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 1 2014 @ 09:26 AM
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reply to post by racasan
 



I was looking at a thread about a pew report that shows that now many Christians don’t think the bible is literal


You mean...this thread?




posted on Jan, 1 2014 @ 09:27 AM
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reply to post by OpinionatedB
 


Ah, I see.
So, Japan as "the sun" bombing Pearl Harbor....was the sun rising in the west. Got it.
Very interesting!!!

Thanks for expounding.
Also, I have a question - what is your native language, and are you fluent in Arabic?
I was under the impression you are a native-born US citizen.



posted on Jan, 1 2014 @ 09:31 AM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 


Since I left debating religion and do not speak to my family now for many years... I do not speak Arabic as I used to.

However, I am a native born American, with an American father, (he was military) and a Lebanese mother. I speak both languages.



posted on Jan, 1 2014 @ 09:33 AM
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reply to post by racasan
 


I should have said mo posed as his god’s mouthpiece

Yes, if I'm not mistaken, all of the 'prophets' thought they were speaking "for God."
Jesus is the one that is the conundrum - did he say he was "God" or not?

I don't think so - based on my interpretation of scripture. I just see way too many 'Eastern' philosophical stuff in his recorded teachings - and he said his followers could all 'do what he has done, and more.'

To me, that says: We are all part of the Divine, and these 'powers' that I have are accessible to everyone who will take the time and make the effort to understand what I am talking about, if you are capable.'


And some were, clearly, not capable, which the Gospel of Thomas shores up. It is true that some people are simply not 'built' in a way to grasp esoteric, philosophical meanings. Therefore, the 'vulgate' is used by those incapable of seeing the 'hidden message.'

But, that's simply my own perspective, derived from the the things I've read and studied.

Cheers



posted on Jan, 1 2014 @ 09:36 AM
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reply to post by OpinionatedB
 


Awesomeness!!

I speak Spanish, started at age 8 from childhood school curricula....kept it up through college and beyond, into the working world. I believe being bilingual (or tri- or poly-, or whatever) really allows an "expanded-view" of the world. Being stuck in one language/culture really narrows the horizon.

Sorry for being OT. So - to tie in to the thread:
Do you find discrepancies between the Arabic Quran and the English translations?



posted on Jan, 1 2014 @ 09:47 AM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 


yes, being bi-lingual is helpful.


Anyway, yes, the translated Quran is heavily scewed most of the time. The most common translators were sunni, and there is much tafsir written as if it was textual in the translations.

Although, I must say, one translator in particular washed his hands of what they did to his translation. What happened with his translation according to him was not the fault of him, it was the people who published his work, they were adding to his words many times and he did speak against it.

The biggest problem with the Quran and reading it in English, is you only see one level of meaning, and nothing else is revealed to you.

Arabic language is beautiful, and each word can carry different meanings based on context and many other factors. As your understanding of your religion and God grows, so does your understanding of the meaning of the Quran. When reading the Quran in another language, you only get one meaning, the meaning that the translator said it was... and you cannot see any other ways to understand, because you cannot see the depth of the language.

I find it beautiful to be able to tilt my head just a tiny bit, and see a whole new something.

edit on 1-1-2014 by OpinionatedB because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 1 2014 @ 09:53 AM
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reply to post by OpinionatedB
 



Anyway, yes, the translated Quran is heavily scewed most of the time. The most common translators were sunni, and there is much tafsir written as if it was textual in the translations.

Although, I must say, one translator in particular washed his hands of what they did to his translation. What happened with his translation according to him was not the fault of him, it was the people who published his work, they were adding to his words many times and he did speak against it.


BINGO!
That is precisely the point of doubting the English-language Bible versions (all 5 bejillion of them)....

there is almost always Much Lost In Translation, and the translator's view will always influence the edition they produce.




posted on Jan, 1 2014 @ 09:56 AM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 


This is why I trust what Neno says of the bible. He is very interesting to speak with. He learned classic greek, and also always where hebrew and aramaic are concerned, reads 20 or more different translations of each verse of the bible. I think he has 30 translations set up on his computer.

I find discussing with him quite fascinating because he has more knowledge of the bible than anyone I have ever met.

Excellent post btw.

edit on 1-1-2014 by OpinionatedB because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 1 2014 @ 10:00 AM
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reply to post by OpinionatedB
 


Yup. He is a fascinating guy. No doubt about it. I find it very refreshing - even 'wonderful' - when people who are well-read and 'eclectic' in their knowledge (whether gained in school, or from life in general, but especially when both are combined) are able to share ideas and thoughts on these huge, important, (exhausting) questions.




posted on Jan, 1 2014 @ 10:04 AM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 


I agree


I have a very open mind, although admittedly set in my ways.. and I enjoy scholarly discussions. Its cool to continue to learn things....



posted on Jan, 1 2014 @ 12:09 PM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 


wildtimes
It did? I'd like to hear about that story.

Actually, pole shift is a very well documented phenomena. While it is generally understood to take thousands of years, there is even evidence for faster pole shift (such as change in orientation of the metals in the earth). The sun has risen in the west (and probably the north and south as well as the east) several times since the beginnings of earth, possibly even during the course of human history (although probably not recorded human history).



posted on Jan, 1 2014 @ 12:26 PM
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reply to post by babloyi
 



Actually, pole shift is a very well documented phenomena.

That refers to the magnetic, not physical, pole. The sun will always rise in the east -- the only way for it to rise in any other direction would be for the planet to stop rotating and begin rotating in another direction, which is not only impossible, but would also likely destroy everything on the planet in the process.



posted on Jan, 1 2014 @ 12:46 PM
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reply to post by adjensen
 

I admit, I've only read articles of it on the web, but I'm not sure I understand what you mean. If north becomes south (as it has in the past), the sun will be rising in the east.
This HAS resulted in changes in wind direction, atmosphere, certain tectonic plates, so yeah, it would definitely be catastrophic.
What exactly DO you mean?
edit on 1-1-2014 by babloyi because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 1 2014 @ 02:20 PM
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reply to post by babloyi
 


My understanding from the little science I have had is that true north and magnetic north are two different things, a magnetic pole shift will not effect true north, therefore, not effect the setting and rising of the sun.

I asked someone with more knowledge than I on the topic, and they did concur to this fact. I have asked permission to quote him, which I have below.

I am sure other people with more knowledge will concur. Its been pseudo science and a fear mongering from the less educated who have been propagating such things from my understanding in regard to pole shift.

Quote:




I'm no expert but from what I've read over the years is that "Magnetic" Pole reversal has happened and will happen again. It does NOT have anything to do with where the sun has or will rise. One is Magnetic the other is Physical.

True North vs Magnetic North.

Having said that. This doesn't mean the Earth's processional rotation has always been constant or been around from the beginning.

If procession has changed drastically for example, say due to the "Imbalance" of the Earth due to 'Gigantic Ice Caps over 2 miles high" on the Northern Hemisphere or North American Continent. Then the last 15 to 10 thousand years B.C. may have seen some rather bizarre occurrences. "Early civilizations/culture" may have become absolutely obsessed with observing and noting the sky to make sure it had finally settled down after such drastic upheaval due to the re-balancing.


The quoted text is from Slayer69, who does not have any concern in this discussion. I just wanted someone else's input on the matter so the discussion would not appear biased in any way.

Whenever prophesy is discussing events future, in the Quran and in the Bible too, it is never a literal what you are expecting word for word thing, there is a way to understand it, and that understanding is simply not what you think from the surface.

There is no fault of the people who hear a thing and understand and relate it according to their own understanding, but generally speaking... most people cannot understand figurative.
edit on 1-1-2014 by OpinionatedB because: (no reason given)



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