Intelligent Design is a self evident truth

OneManArmy

DJW001
reply to post by edmc^2

 

Darwin misinterpreted what he saw! That is, instead of the intelligent design in nature, specifically in living things, he mistook these as proof of evolution.

Completely backwards, of course. You have mistaken this imperfect hodgepodge of evolution as proof of a perfect creator. If the world is created, why is there evil, eh? Is your creator evil?

The creator is in balance. Evil is necessary to counter good. God is neither good nor evil.
Without evil how would we recognise good?
How do we learn empathy without bad things happening to us?
How do we learn to be good people without seeing all the evil and injustice in the world?

Its a "necessary evil". Ying and yang, positive and negative, matter and anti matter.

If your talking about physical existence then yes, Good and Evil does exist. The real God did not surmise that "in order for there to be Good there has to be Evil" that's human thinking. God the Creator is not the Real God.

reply to post by Risktakr



Good and evil don't exist. Good and evil are determined by society's current level of morality. Back in biblical times, slavery was considered ok. Now a days, all you have to do is say that someone is pro-slavery and they will be considered the worst kind of evil in the world. Also this morality isn't worldwide either. One country could consider something reprehensible. Say arranged marriages to children. This is considered wrong here in the states, but is considered a way of life in places like India. Even the bible cannot decide what is truly evil and truly good. Depending on how you interpret the bible any of these things could be evil or good: slavery, homosexuality, war, pride, anger, jealousy, rape, misogyny, and a whole slew of other things.

We look back on some of the things that are considered evil in this day and cannot believe that the people would do these things, yet these people considered themselves holy and devout and destined for heaven. Are all the ancient people who allowed slavery in hell now because we consider it evil? What about our founding fathers who owned slaves? See that is the point, today's good and acceptable is tomorrow's evil and reprehensible.

daskakik

edmc^2
There was no evolution - but variety and adaptation.

How was he wrong when "variety and adaptation" is how he described evolution?

because he didn't witnessed, saw with his own eyes evolution taking place (since it takes millions of years for it to happen - according to the theory) but what he saw was things that were already there - varieties of animals adapting to their environment!

Just like humans adapting to their environment in order NOT to just survive but to FLOURISH!

But the fact is - finch remained to be finches albeit with different characteristics.

Characteristics that are Pre-PROGRAMED within the DNA of each living creature.

edmc^2
because he didn't witnessed, saw with his own eyes evolution taking place (since it takes millions of years for it to happen - according to the theory) but what he saw was things that were already there - varieties of animals adapting to their environment!

Which is what he based his theory on. So you agree up to the point of speciation although you have not witnessed it or the supposed programming.

You still have not proven Darwin wrong although he might very well have been.

Oh. My. ...... i don't dare say the last word.

People.. some of your posts have angered me. I'm sorry.. but they have.

The fact of the matter is... both "sides" are probably a little bit right.

The minute people stop separating "SCIENCE" from "GOD" is when people are going to start acting a little better.

First of all...... "science" really? "science" are we all aware that science is a lot more than just a tool to disprove any form of intelligent design, right? It's in everything. We can't deny science's existence because we created it's study. WE called it science. - 1 point to "science"

What we're really all doing is looking at the world completely the wrong way. We're looking for answers we will NEVER find. We're far too limited to truly know what the heck is really going on. We can make educated guesses.... but that's all they will ever be.

Science goes back on it's word and disproves itself on a constant basis. - It's funded and studied by man
Intelligent design has too many explanations and too many people taking the bible story literally - Again the idea is created by man and ruled (via religion) by man. - And if they are both funded/advertised and ran by MAN.. how can we really 100% trust either enough to bicker about it?

We all just need to take a step back from our ignorant and often insufferable selves to think for a second:

1) "Science" is great - It's really told us a LOT about how this world works - and a LOT more.
2) Intelligent design is something worth considering. There are a lot of things that don't add up and that science can't explain. Aaaand, no, before you say it, Intelligent design is not just a cop out because we can't explain/understand something. - It actually makes some sense if you take your blackout "science" goggles off - ID should not be just passed off because you love "science" so much and look at the world so "literally" all high and mighty.

Learn to accept if you can't learn to work together.

Maybe we'd get somewhere, though, if we tried the latter.

Deuces.

Krazysh0t
reply to post by Risktakr

 

Good and evil don't exist. Good and evil are determined by society's current level of morality. Back in biblical times, slavery was considered ok. Now a days, all you have to do is say that someone is pro-slavery and they will be considered the worst kind of evil in the world. Also this morality isn't worldwide either. One country could consider something reprehensible. Say arranged marriages to children. This is considered wrong here in the states, but is considered a way of life in places like India. Even the bible cannot decide what is truly evil and truly good. Depending on how you interpret the bible any of these things could be evil or good: slavery, homosexuality, war, pride, anger, jealousy, rape, misogyny, and a whole slew of other things.

We look back on some of the things that are considered evil in this day and cannot believe that the people would do these things, yet these people considered themselves holy and devout and destined for heaven. Are all the ancient people who allowed slavery in hell now because we consider it evil? What about our founding fathers who owned slaves? See that is the point, today's good and acceptable is tomorrow's evil and reprehensible.

edit on 19-12-2013 by Krazysh0t because: (no reason given)

Not really arguing Good and Evil's Existance. I am pointing out to the Pro God group that intelligence is not devine or holy. Creation itself is flawed. Real God would not have created anything not even us (humans) the most intelligent ones so far. There should be a movement called The REAL God did not create anything.

edmc^2

[Gen 3:2-5 NIV] 2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' " 4 "You will not certainly die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

So evil, was not and is not from God but from disobedient angels and mankind.

From what you posted it seems that evil already existed and that mankind was just unaware of it.

It is interesting that god keeping this knowledge from man doesn't raise eyebrows, specially on a site like ATS.

reply to post by Risktakr


This is probably closer to the truth. If there is truly an entity, we can call it God or Jehovah or whatever, that created and directed life on this planet, the likelihood of it being the same entity that created the universe is pretty small. After all, why would a god create the universe in all of its vastness (and it is truly vast, there are objects in space that make our sun look like a tiny grain of sand compared to them), then proceed to focus on one super tiny part of the universe to develop life and micromanage it? It doesn't make sense, I know if I was an entity that was capable of creating a whole universe, I wouldn't bother with one small location in it, and I'd worry more about doing things to effect large parts of it.

daskakik

edmc^2
because he didn't witnessed, saw with his own eyes evolution taking place (since it takes millions of years for it to happen - according to the theory) but what he saw was things that were already there - varieties of animals adapting to their environment!

Which is what he based his theory on. So you agree up to the point of speciation although you have not witnessed it or the supposed programming.

You still have not proven Darwin wrong although he might very well have been.

I don't need to prove Darwin wrong since many well known evolutionist already admitted he was wrong.

And throwing words like "speciation" "punctuated equilibrium" "micro-macro evolution", etc, doesn't make the varieties we see in nature products of evolution but rather - special creation or as the OP states - Intelligent Design.

edmc^2
I don't need to prove Darwin wrong since many well known evolutionist already admitted he was wrong.

It doesn't work that way.

And throwing words like "speciation" "punctuated equilibrium" "micro-macro evolution", etc, doesn't make the varieties we see in nature products of evolution but rather - special creation or as the OP states - Intelligent Design.

Sure doesn't but standing agaqinst them hardly proves ID.

reply to post by edmc^2


You do know that because of the way the scientific method works that just because Darwin may be wrong, doesn't necessarily make Evolution wrong right? In fact most scientists who postulate new theories are incorrect initially and it isn't until many years later that the theories are better fleshed out. This doesn't mean that the theory itself was initially incorrect, just that some of the conclusions were.

daskakik

edmc^2

[Gen 3:2-5 NIV] 2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' " 4 "You will not certainly die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

So evil, was not and is not from God but from disobedient angels and mankind.

From what you posted it seems that evil already existed and that mankind was just unaware of it.

It is interesting that god keeping this knowledge from man doesn't raise eyebrows, specially on a site like ATS.

Evil is the tree of Good and evil, And the tree of good and evil existed within the mind of Adam and Eve.

Evil was always a Choice based on Human thoughts and ideas. It always is. Only humans do evil deeds. You never see the devil do them. Because Satan is a spirit that learks within the mind of man.

daskakik

edmc^2

[Gen 3:2-5 NIV] 2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' " 4 "You will not certainly die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

So evil, was not and is not from God but from disobedient angels and mankind.

From what you posted it seems that evil already existed and that mankind was just unaware of it.

It is interesting that god keeping this knowledge from man doesn't raise eyebrows, specially on a site like ATS.

This is where "free will" comes in.

In other words, YOUR CHOICE whether to do GOOD or EVIL.

Just like a knife in your hand - up to you what to do with it.

But know this, there's ALWAYS consequences!

And its the CONSEQUENCE of our actions that prevents us from DOING evil to ourselves and others.


Just like Adam and Eve - they had the choice to obey what their creator told them to do but made their own decision instead - sadly, dragging the rest of us with them.

Now the human TENDENCY is to do what is bad because we inherited the imperfect DNA from the first parents.

But once corrected - our TENDENCY will be to do which is good.

Krazysh0t
reply to post by edmc^2

 

You do know that because of the way the scientific method works that just because Darwin may be wrong, doesn't necessarily make Evolution wrong right? In fact most scientists who postulate new theories are incorrect initially and it isn't until many years later that the theories are better fleshed out. This doesn't mean that the theory itself was initially incorrect, just that some of the conclusions were.

If the foundation is WRONG, there's nothing you can do to make it right but to break it apart and start new. On this there's hope.

Unfortunately, for evolution, there's no hope because there's no solid FOUNDATION but on shifting / changing opinions, speculations and wild imaginations.

reply to post by edmc^2

None of that changes the existance of evil before the time of the story.

Why post text as if it is plain as day if you have to perform your mental gymnastic routine to try to explain it?

reply to post by edmc^2


But the foundation is fine, I've even seen you admit to believing in speciation and micro-evolution before. You are contradicting yourself. You are grasping at straws here to try to discount evolution, and you just end up contradicting yourself from other threads.

If micro-evolution can exist, so can macro-evolution since eventually enough changes can compile over time to cause the animal to be considered a new species. This doesn't mean that one day the animal is a lizard and the next it is a bird, no there are MANY stages in between where it will share characteristics from both types of animals. Eventually the bird characteristics will dominate more than the lizard ones and we stop calling the species a lizard and start calling it a bird. It's just that simple and we have plenty of evidence for it that you just REFUSE to believe despite it being legitimate.

daskakik
reply to post by edmc^2

 

None of that changes the existance of evil before the time of the story.

Why post text as if it is plain as day if you have to perform your mental gymnastic routine to try to explain it?

Sure it does. and the thing is, we're all part of the "story" and it's not done yet.

and it's not "mental gymnastic" to explain what's plainly revealed.

It's simple as a loving father NOT WANTING his children to suffer.

Krazysh0t
reply to post by edmc^2

 

But the foundation is fine, I've even seen you admit to believing in speciation and micro-evolution before. You are contradicting yourself. You are grasping at straws here to try to discount evolution, and you just end up contradicting yourself from other threads.

If micro-evolution can exist, so can macro-evolution since eventually enough changes can compile over time to cause the animal to be considered a new species. This doesn't mean that one day the animal is a lizard and the next it is a bird, no there are MANY stages in between where it will share characteristics from both types of animals. Eventually the bird characteristics will dominate more than the lizard ones and we stop calling the species a lizard and start calling it a bird. It's just that simple and we have plenty of evidence for it that you just REFUSE to believe despite it being legitimate.

What foundation?

As for speciation/micro-macro evolution, you must have misunderstood me.

No such thing but just plain adaptation and variety - up to a certain point as dictated by genetic boundary.

Just like breeding will never turn a horse into a cow, viceversa.

edmc^2
Sure it does. and the thing is, we're all part of the "story" and it's not done yet.

But the story has parts. The text you posted and claim to plainly reveal says evil was and man just didn't have knowledge of it.

and it's not "mental gymnastic" to explain what's plainly revealed.

The fact that you are explaining says it all.

It's simple as a loving father NOT WANTING his children to suffer.

Yeah right.

I believe in God. I believe in a cosmic God that created everything, who might be energy. I believe there might be an ET God who designed us and brought Jesus to Earth. Panspermia may be a tool. We might even be a seed colony here on earth. I feel confused most of the time about the whole thing and how it might have really been. Maybe God resides in another dimension. The more anyone looks for answers the more confusing it all becomes. It didn't help that I had a UFO sighting in 2009 of two orbs, it made life more complex and confusing... trying to understand that there is somebody else watching us.
I touched some electric wires in the house fuse box while painting the laundry room, we were building a house 18 years ago. I was electrified and it hurt down into my bones. My elbow felt like it was burning! I believe that God is like electricity, we don't see God but the Devine Father is there, in a very big real way. I think it is that simple. I never believed in evil until 9-11-2001. That day things became even clearer. Man can be evil, the animals aren't. Nature has a natural order to everything, we are the ones who mess up the balance in nature.