Controversy Over 5th-Grader’s Religion Speech

What I find fascinating in all these replies is the fact no one has a clue as to what the speech actually said. I can't make a judgement call unless I read/heard the speech. I have zero issue with the topic of the kid's speech in a school environment. I don't understand why it's such an issue to speak of religions in school. It has been a massive defining factor in the entire written history of man. Why in the world does everyone think it needs to be shunned? There is a difference in preaching or pushing a faith and provided information and how it effected our history yet every mention of it people panic. I just don't understand I suppose how we should avoid such a incredible influence religion is, was, and will be to be discussed in the school system. Yes, I know the fight about evolution and intelligent design but the kid is referencing history not trying to replace anything.

defcon5

The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

This was a sponsored event:

representatives from the Tropicana contest.

Which means they probably don't want to be ticking off religious people who make up a large number of their clients.

Additionally, and for all those religion haters out there that feel that its perfectly fine to pick on, in the US religion is a protected class just like race. You do not have complete “freedom of speech” when dealing with protected classes, there are laws regarding hate speech, and discrimination.

I'm sure that the school and Tropicana don't want to deal with the negative fallout from this speech, and as such they can most certainly deem it inappropriate.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.

edit on 12/16/2013 by defcon5 because: (no reason given)

Meaning that if the majority are wrong, the corporation will deliberately choose to be wrong or stay quiet to save money. Is that what you're saying? Or maybe they have the best interests of their employees and affiliates at heart. Maybe we have a whole chain of organizations whose members and representatives are too afraid to tell a bunch of idiots to sit down and shut up for a few minutes while someone with half a brain exercises their freedom of speech. Because that's what America is all about, right? Give the people rights before letting them terrorize each other into not using those rights. Freakin' genius.

Just to be clear here, I'm no longer talking just about the Tropicana contest. I'm talking about every other instance where someone was too afraid to speak up because they feared the repercussions of being the only right person.

iRoyalty
reply to post by Eryiedes

 

If you want to teach your kids about murder that's fine,

Nice strawman arguement sir.
You can use it to sweep up your mess.

-Peace-

reply to post by Eryiedes


If my kids were inquisitive about it, I would tell them the truth and the whole truth. However that was not for that kid to decide that all those other kid were ready.

Ok, let me explain this another way. I remember when I was about 9 or 10 and my Mum told me she had had a smoke on something that isn't too legal once. I cried myself to sleep that night, thinking my Mother was a criminal and a bad person. Imagine you think that being a Christian is a purely good thing and you think your parents are good people for being Christian, then you find out Christians did all these horrible things and all you can think is why do my parents support these people? It's devastating!

Like I said, this stuff should be taught and it should be well known. Religious violence is something we need to purge this world of, however, let kids be kids until they're ready yeah?

reply to post by Krazysh0t

Same thing about religion, it needs to be exposed as a tool of the elite to propagate mass murder, this kid is on to the right concepts here.

I dare say, that is precisely why we have the 1st Amendment with it's clause specific to religion. Some do feel as you do. Many do not. Middle ground doesn't seem to exist and for the record..we're on polar opposite sides on this one.

So, if the hatred of religion can be introduced as a concept at 5th grade, within the context of school projects.......the teaching of religion so they at least understand what they're being asked to hate, is also an absolute, and plenty of folks would make a whole new issue in America to push to the wall, that balanced education took place. I'd join that cause, I think.

Which brings the debate full circle. All ..or nothing...with nothing in the current climate being the preference, IMO.

After all, mass murder in history is tied to religion specifically because people considered the right to express belief or the right to suppress that belief, worth killing for. Both cases have seen death on large scales and still do today. It's a level of polarization I'm glad we don't have within classrooms, in this highly polarized society.

reply to post by iRoyalty


We disagree.
If a student can concisely formulate a proper inquiry on the topic or write a detailed essay on it that wins awards...guess what?
They're old enough to know.

-Peace-

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


You are misunderstanding what I am getting at. Religion can be helpful and can be used to help people in many different ways, both physically and spiritually. HOWEVER it is most definitely ALSO used as a tool to incite large groups of people to kill other groups of people. This has happened time and again throughout history. To ignore this simple fact due to offending someone's sensibilities is just sweeping it under the rug and indirectly allowing it to continue. By exposing it, you can maybe try to stop it or make people aware of the duplicity being preached to them.

edit: I'm not trying to get at preaching hatred of religion though. But people need to be able to talk about the dark things being done in the name of religion.

reply to post by Krazysh0t


Well, on legitimate historic events, covered as history and where religion happened to be a major or even primary factor? Heck, I don't say religion as a word and mere concept of history be striken. There are entire periods of history, both good and bad, they'd have to remove. Religion was an underlying basis and factor for whole extended periods. The Crusades come to mind. Spain into and through the 1500's and beyond certainly comes to mind.

The fight against religion..and the effort to suppress any belief or belief which didn't conform has ALSO been the deaths of millions...not just fighting TO have it.

That's the problem. Your viewpoint would teach the aspects where religion has done harm and been the proximate cause of massive bloodletting in the past. I'd also emphasize just how much power Religion holds for positive and true goodness in peoples lives. Some nations in this world run 90% and above as Faithful. Catholics and Islam alike have such %'s in different nations...and MANY of them. Religion, by nature, being evil would insure every one of those nations was a miserable and ugly place to be..when the truth couldn't be further.

So, I think it's how we term Religion in it's own right and ever moving to describe Religion itself as bad, when it's how man has chosen to use it which has produced evil. The same has been done in as great or greater numbers in the name of nationalism, resource distribution and of course, the one item which has probably killed more people outside of old age? Gold.

You're right in saying it's not simple. It's very complex..and 5th graders aren't miniature adults to take it all in and properly apply perspective to understand, as adults will. Let kids be kids...just a little bit..is my thinking.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


I completely disagree.
If a child shows ability and promise it should be cultivated and not stifled.
The fact that they chose the subject and won an award for it is proof that he (and likely most in his class) WERE indeed ready for such knowledge.
Letting kids be kids is one thing.
Preventing and discouraging their potential is another.

-Peace-

Wrabbit2000
reply to post by Krazysh0t

 

Well, on legitimate historic events, covered as history and where religion happened to be a major or even primary factor? Heck, I don't say religion as a word and mere concept of history be striken. There are entire periods of history, both good and bad, they'd have to remove. Religion was an underlying basis and factor for whole extended periods. The Crusades come to mind. Spain into and through the 1500's and beyond certainly comes to mind.

The fight against religion..and the effort to suppress any belief or belief which didn't conform has ALSO been the deaths of millions...not just fighting TO have it.

But here's the thing about that, usually the reason a religion is suppressed by a group of people to the point of bloodshed is due to ANOTHER religion oppressing it. In this case it is still being used as a tool to cause death and destruction. Case in point, Christians being persecuted by Romans. They viewed the emperor as a god and Christians didn't, this was unacceptable. Another case, Jews being tortured and killed by Catholics during the Inquisition.

In just about every case of religious persecution, there is always ANOTHER religion doing the persecuting.

That's the problem. Your viewpoint would teach the aspects where religion has done harm and been the proximate cause of massive bloodletting in the past. I'd also emphasize just how much power Religion holds for positive and true goodness in peoples lives. Some nations in this world run 90% and above as Faithful. Catholics and Islam alike have such %'s in different nations...and MANY of them. Religion, by nature, being evil would insure every one of those nations was a miserable and ugly place to be..when the truth couldn't be further.

Hey I never said that you couldn't discuss how religion has been used as a tool to spread goodwill.

So, I think it's how we term Religion in it's own right and ever moving to describe Religion itself as bad, when it's how man has chosen to use it which has produced evil. The same has been done in as great or greater numbers in the name of nationalism, resource distribution and of course, the one item which has probably killed more people outside of old age? Gold.

You're right in saying it's not simple. It's very complex..and 5th graders aren't miniature adults to take it all in and properly apply perspective to understand, as adults will. Let kids be kids...just a little bit..is my thinking.

But what if the kid is naturally curious about the world around him and decides to find out information about these things? Should we stop a child who learned these things independently from sharing this information with his peers because they wouldn't understand it? Because that is essentially what is being done in the OP. Personally, I think this kind of attitude towards learning should be cultivated, not suppressed.

Events like the OP are why our country is so far down the rankings in education. Stop hiding the truth from children, stop giving them the pg version of events under the pretense that they cannot understand it.

Eryiedes
reply to post by iRoyalty

 

We disagree.
If a student can concisely formulate a proper inquiry on the topic or write a detailed essay on it that wins awards...guess what?
They're old enough to know.

-Peace-

Then apparently we don't disagree, you just don't understand my point.

That kid did a good speech, he had the wrong audience. Just because he was ready for that stuff does not mean the rest of them were.

His genius should not have been knocked down, he didn't know better than to not tell that to those children, but someone corrected him, perhaps inappropriately but they did what they had to. Would you allow children to be shown videos depicting that stuff? Imagination is just as potent.

reply to post by iRoyalty


I appologize for misundestanding you...but I for one don't paint children as "fragile".
Knowledge shouldn't be something to fear.
Then again since the US government only wants carrots graduating, they DO fear intelligent students.

-Peace-

reply to post by Eryiedes


Haha true that, I hope my kids DO ask me questions about the world from a young age and take it all on board. At the end of the day, who want's educated kids when there's toilets to clean?

If violence including mass murder isn't appropriate for fourth or fifth graders, how many murders have they seen on teevee and the news by that age? What, you think they haven't heard about Newtown, or Littleton, or 9-11?

Heck, I saw a live murder on teevee back in 1963 at the ripe age of 10 (Oswald being shot), and then later the President's head being blown off in full color, again and again and again.

If murder isn't appropriate as a topic of discussion, someone needs to talk to the people who plan prime time tv schedules. And the news.

Here's the kid's actual speech, which can't be embedded, sorry. It's fairly innocuous:

Tampa 5th grader's religion speech sparks controversy

I agree with previous posters that if this kid had showed up with a speech about Jesus or Muhammed or Krishna, the teacher would have shut him down from the start, and many people who are saying he was treated unfairly would have been cheering that event.

If you can't talk positively about religion in schools, I see no reason that you should be able to talk negatively about religion in schools.

reply to post by adjensen


That sir, is where we differ.
I believe schools should teach the truth...not punish & chastize it.

-Peace-

reply to post by Eryiedes

I believe schools should teach the truth...not punish & chastize it.

Then you are not in favour of the Establishment and Free Exercise clauses?

Allowing only negative speech about something is, in effect, persecution, and a clear violation of the separation of church and state and the Constitution of the United States.

reply to post by adjensen


Why on Earth would I?
I'm not an American and we have a different educational system here.

-Peace-

reply to post by Eryiedes

I'm not an American and we have a different educational system here.

Well, in this case, the student in question is American, and is ruled by the law of this nation, not yours, and that law says that if you can't talk positively about religion in a public school, you can't talk negatively about religion in a public school, either.

So you're welcome to your opinion, but it is not germane to this particular case.

So I'm confused. The school district spokeswoman says the problem was the inclusion of mass murder. The assistant principal tells the kid he needs to remove the religion. I think y'all need to get your stories straight.

I have no problem with the permission slips being sent home. I find that to be a logical solution. Stripping the student of his ribbon and telling him to rewrite or quit is not. The school is saying that 4th and 5th graders cannot handle the subject matter. Are they trying to tell me that the students are unaware of 9/11? (After all it's taught every year in order to instill obedience to the police state in everyone.) Students at this age are unaware of WWII and the holocaust? How many of these students play GTA and Call of Duty at home?

As for my child, she was ready to handle a speech such as this at that age. It concerns me seeing the number of posters who think a student at 11 would be unable to derive this speech topic, or research it. Third grade my child explained currency devaluation to her teacher. In fourth, she showed the teacher George Washington's inaugural address to prove that USA was *not* founded as a democracy. Kids this age CAN understand more complex issues than we give them credit for. (This year she took on her whole social studies class regarding why the NSA spying is wrong and an affront to our Constitution and our Fourth Amendment rights. She's a fun one :hey