What actually do you people not like about Freemasonry?

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by saint4God
Example: "sorry son, you cannot join the Masons for you are not a God-fearing man." What does that make the person feel about God and Christianity? I see a conflict of interest: we are to spread the gospel to all the nations of the earth yet you shut the door on someone who wants to join you as a 'brother'?

Masonry is not Christianity, nor a substitute for it. It is not the duty of Masonry to evangelize men: that is the duty of religion. It is, however, the duty of Masonry to admit only those men who will conform to the precepts and ideals of reason, faith, virtue, and charity.

Fiat Lvx.

So what you're saying is that my question is okay as a statment: We are to spread the gospel to all the nations of the earth yet you shut the door on someone who wants to join you as a 'brother'.

If I misunderstand, then please clarify.

Originally posted by Bondi

Originally posted by saint4God
Originally posted by mastermason
But sir, why would you want to futher the false notion that born-again Christians are elitists?

Freemasons don't claim to be elitists.

[edit on 20/11/2004 by Bondi]

You don't have to 'claim' to be one in order to be one. See above post.

[edit on 21-11-2004 by saint4God]

Lost

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. ML has covered modt of what I would have said , so not to make things boring I will come at you from another angle.

I am quite convinced that the random mason is willing to forfeit my trust for their fraternity. it matters not however, because i really dont care.

I would disagree, you seem to have a concept of Masons are from another planet. Mason in your eyes has been de � humanised. Freemasons are just like you, your Uncle, the Guy at work, the Man next door. We love, we loose, we cry. If you cut us do we not bleed. We have the same need to be liked as any other human being. But if you �don�t care� then I would suspect that is quite easily picked up.

I think you do care ? people who just don�t care don�t need to say , I don�t care, because they don�t.

For someone to automatically be my friend and expect the same from me because of some 'brotherhood' I become doubly cautious of that stranger

You have miss read the signs, I can assure you there are many Masons, I could slap all day and never get tired. Like I said we are no different. Mostly I find they just work harder at making the effort. Why? I am not absolutely sure. I think it is something to do with, as we just said, wanting to be liked ,to be family.

I will judge each man by his actions. -Not a handshake or fancy title.

Absolutely.

Can the organization not evolve with the times?

Absolutely.

those rites and rituals werent handed down by god were they?

My qualms with masonry are about secrecy.

Absolutely. Well with regard to secrecy , here at ATS is shows how so much of Masonry is now common knowledge. I don�t think it matters so much myself , but the Anti Mason does not want the whole truth to be available, no secrets no conspiracy. But when we tell the truth, we get are but only those at the top know the truth. Then when those at the top say , this is the truth. Well its only the illuminatti that know the truth. Nobody knows who the flippin Illuminatti are. So the Anti is safe with that one.

I guarantee you there ARE corrupt individuals within masonry,

Absolutely.

I dont like certain individual masons (mostly on the internet) who start threads under the guise of 'Let me answer your questions' (as if I had any) and then prance around the thread like nobility.

Then knock them down with facts, show them up for the cheats that they are. Masons have a saying " a willingness at all times to undergo examination."

I am indeed proud of my opinions because I have nurtured them with logic. Sure, I am wrong sometimes too. I can deal.

Were all wrong sometimes, but why should others hold their views with less conviction than you do yours?

Don�t pat each other on the back like you just put out a forrest fire just yet.

Well I am sorry if it comes over like that, its probably because Masons like myself and ML, have been defending Masonry for some time, we see it as showing the truth against false claims.

But is there not a clue in there. ML is in the States, I am in the UK but look how similar the answers are. We don�t go to Mason defence classes? Maybe [ gasp of breath] its just happens to be the truth.

Originally posted by saint4God

So what you're saying is that my question is okay as a statment: We are to spread the gospel to all the nations of the earth yet you shut the door on someone who wants to join you as a 'brother'.

If I misunderstand, then please clarify.

I think you've misunderstood: you say that "we are to spread the gospel"...but Freemasonry doesn't have a gospel. Rather, we are a fraternity that has strict prerequisites for membership. We have no interest in spreading Freemasonry to those who do not meet our requirements.

You speak of the Gospel, and I assume you refer to the Gospel of Christianity. Spreading the Gospel of Christianity is perfectly fine, even praiseworthy, but it has nothing to do with membership in Freemasonry. Again, Freemasonry is not a Christian organization, it is secular.

Fiat Lvx.

ML, Bill and the Axeman,

Why are you "convinced" that they are willining to "forfeit your trust" if they haven't done so?

-you're right. they havent done so. perhaps i have been unfair. the reason i am 'quite sure' is because in my experience, members of gangs, fraternal organizations and the like have already placed their priorities. even if there were a realistic scenario where i could test their trust against their priorities and affiliations, i would not. it doesnt matter to me. even my closest friends have violated my trust (im sure i am not unique to this) - i cant hate them. humans are weak, and break.

You immediately go on to insult every Mason or member of any other fraternity

not quite. i did not trap my statements with absolutes, but go on and overlook them. i specifically said:

-naturally, there are exceptions to the rule, because each man is an individual

also Axeman, I will not be breaking your post down - but what a prediction! Its too bad your perspective taints mine as 'same old drivel.' Likewise whoopdeedoo! - i like your avatar. feel better?

I think you do care ? people who just don�t care don�t need to say , I don�t care, because they don�t

-right again. i do care. or rather, i would care..... if one of my friendships was ruined over somebodies affiliations. to guard against such painful friendships, i have adopted a condition you might brand 'cold.' so be it. i do not completely trust many. maybe a small handfull do i really trust. everyone else, friend or no friend is not trusted completely. i will treat them as if they are, because they have not violated my trust yet, but like i said before 'you dont know someone until you get to know them.' and 'getting to know' in my book is more than a conversation over some beer, or even many such conversations. in all actuality, i do not KNOW many people. that doesnt mean i hate them, but rather am not suprised when i discover they are not actually trustworthy. the original question asked what my qualms with masonry were, not what my qualms with the the average joe were. i answered the question. dont label me some anti-mason. i am not. i am anti-anyone-not-trustworthy, and i suspect that many (NOT ALL, CALM DOWN NOW) masons are just that. i have already explained why. -because masons have already alligned themselves with a group to which they place their alleigance. fine by me if they do so. go on and be a Mason. I will just second guess you that much more. I dont need to be alligned with anybody to serve, let alone swear by it on some holy book. Such oaths set you up to dissapoint one side or another. I have no sides.

Were all wrong sometimes, but why should others hold their views with less conviction than you do yours?

they shouldn't. have all the conviction you want. answer me this; is it logical that one should place their hand on their holy book of choice and take an oath in order to serve?

logical? nope, not by me.

hijack this thread into mud-slinging and negativity

yeah, im the bad guy because i dont sugar coat what i see. i am not going to apologize for others illogical behaviors. you want me to step down and play word games. sorry.

there's no real secrecy around Freemasonry anymore.

you keep saying that. if so, would you please indulge all details!

no?

well you could certainly provide a link for me that does.

no?

ok, so where is your alleigance?

right.

anyways, it is ok by me that my point is 'lost' on you all. bottom line; any and everyman is my brother - no requirments necessary.

that its sooo "white"

Nice to see so many people posting, and that includes you "lost" all input is good input. Just wish you'd be a little less argumentitive.

Still I am going to try and answer all post, I see a number of people have stepped in and filled my abscence, thank you very much.

by lost tear glands swelled....political correctness

Not sure the purpose of this comment, other than atagonistic, but just incase, I have no political preference.

by lostStay away from other groups

This wasn't actually a defence for Freemasonry, but more a way of showing you that all groups have secrets. And by answering the original question with "secrets" you were segregating yourself from many people. Just didn't know if you realised.

by lostFreemason's keep secrects. Answered and know its true.

Never denied it personally. I think the bit argued is when it's claimed freemasonry is a secret society, where in fact as most mason's, and those who have researched, would reply it's actually a society with secrets.

by lost
Want me to be the bad guy

I have no such desire. You are more classed as a trouble maker by your personal attacks towards individuals. You wish to argue against freemasonry but the majority you have merely insulted people. That again is you choice, but really not required or wanted.

by Lost I don't know much about masonry

Now wouldn't this of been an opportunity to further your knowledge. You could of asked civilised questions, received civilised answers. Although I have to admit I don't think you are concerned with learning more, just shouting about the little you do know and then filling your posts with slander, insults, little icons, and lots of whoo hoo's.

by Flange Gasket
don't like have to keep secrets from the people

I think this is probably what "Lost" means, and this is one of the most legimate and too be honest fair reasons for people to dislike freemasonry. This dislike is only a personal one though, and no one can argue this, if you do not want to keep secrets from people that is all that can be said, it is a part of freemasonry and therefore freemasonry is not for you.

by Flange Gasket
Secrecy unneeded

Then it would not be Freemasonry. The ritual progression and the issuing of the secret(s) is a big part of freemasonry. But it is ritualistitc, there is nothing that will harm anyone, and if you knew what they were you'd probably think, bloody hell is that it, is that what all the fuss is about. It only has meaning to a freemason.

by dreamweaver777
Father was a mason

Before I start I must stress I am a little nervous in responding here. Seeing as these are comments made by your father, and he is no longer with us sorry for your loss, please remember this is only opinion on what your father may of meant, or may have experienced.

It must of meant something to him to join, only he could let us know what he was told joining would mean, and require, so there is a chance he was mislead.

by dreamweaver777
Still had his ring

I think this is a very important point. This would give the impression that it was not the Freemasonry Fraternity at fault, more the conduct of your father's local lodge. Unfortunately there will always be someone who will try and take advantage.

by dreamweaver777
Weren't who hen thought they were, as in christian

Okay now I have had read this in two ways, either
1) the conduct of some members was not christian
2) the conduct of some chrisitian members was not christian.

the first is quite probable seeing as you will find non christian members who have different belifs as to what is correct.
the second, well unfortunately I am not a christian myself so I do not know what the repercussions of this are, or what your father may of felt in this situation, so rather than insult I'd rather not comment.

These are both very valid points though, and a worry for those that are members not those that aren't. It is a problem regarding individuals not the fraternity.

by Dreamweaver777 always weary of joing groups

Don't blame you. There are some real whacky ones about and some very dangerous ones as well. I haven't really found anything to do with freemasonry, especially in the UK where I am from and where my research has been based. I have read about some choice members, and even some lodges that are not exactly a good advert for the fraternity, but as always it is the few that spoil it for the many and I feel quite strongly that this would be the case with reference to freemasonry.

by Saint4God
Dont have to claim to be one, in order to be one.

Not sure what you mean here. Although the setence is self explanitory the original response was to a claim that freemasonry claims to be elitist, or have I read it wrong?

Do you think Freemason's are elite? or that they think they are elite? Is this regarding the Fraternal opinion or some masons in particular?

Sorry for the quiz, but I have not heard this point made that much before, and am particular interested in it.

Hope I haven't forgotten anyone and that you are getting info from the thread. And thanks for keeping it as a discussion. (most of the time anyway)

Originally posted by lost
there's no real secrecy around Freemasonry anymore.
you keep saying that. if so, would you please indulge all details!

What do you want to know?

well you could certainly provide a link for me that does

If you want to know I am sure you can find it for yourself. But if you require a link about freemasonry try www.ugle.org.uk
Very informative. If it does not give you your answers try freemasonrywatch although I wouldn't believe quite everything your read there, and the navigation system is a little un-orthadox.

ok, so where is your alleigance?

To my creator, to my queen, to my wife, to my brothers, to main kind.

anyways, it is ok by me that my point is 'lost' on you all

It was never lost, good punn, you just concentrate too much on being aggressive and the agitator. Some one else has posted a similar opinon that I think you was trying to make have a read.

bottom line; any and everyman is my brother - no requirments necessary.

I cannot honeslty believe that. If you can read back through your posts and say honestly you think you have been fair to the people you have replied too. We can only take things the way we read it and you leave little question as to your motive.

In example with you sating

everyman is

it could be presumed you don't like women then?.





[edit on 22/11/2004 by Bondi]

ok bondi,

what is my motive then?

yes i have been fair, at least how i judge fairness. please disagree.

you dont like my style of response. cry about it. you would prefer me to play word games. if i do not like something, i will say so -especially when asked. i will not sugarcoat it, to make it sound all pretty like were at some formal gathering. its an internet thread buddy. go re-read my first post, than tell me which individual i attacked. none i am sure. but i was very promptly responded to and very snobbishly asked to leave etc. lol. it was then that i attacked individuals. so deal.

I cannot honeslty believe that.

you dont have to. clearly, you do not know me, and have completetly misinterperited where i am coming from. i am not here to gain friends. i know i am outnumbered, and my lack of tact recruits few. thats fine by me. i am true to myself and my own convictions.

by answering the original question with "secrets" you were segregating yourself from many people. Just didn't know if you realised.

and that matters sooo much doesnt it? again, weak.

so you are going to answer my questions? gather all your brothers around now and answer me this in FULL detail: what are the secrets divulged and/or asked to keep when one is initiated/ accepted/ whatever into free-masonry?

no, i dont think you will answer my question, and frankly i dont want you to. just making a point. i would rather you enjoy your brotherhood because it makes you happy. you can answer my other question though:

"Is it LOGICAL that one place his hand on his holy book of choice and take an oath in order to serve?!"

also, just because i dont make a parrallel statement about women does not mean i couldn't have. don't assume you know me or my convictions. would you have liked me to include "all women are my brothers...." lol.

yes, for those who didnt get it, all humans are my siblings -no requirements necessary.

and yes it was a good punn, but it wasnt mine. i borrowed it from 'the Axeman.' And to Ausar, guessing that you're refering to my 'brother' statment, I must be white then? hmm.



[edit on 22-11-2004 by lost]

OK , Lost, lets look at two statements you have made.

I am quite convinced that the random mason is willing to forfeit my trust for their fraternity. it matters not however, because i really dont care.

This indicates you would like to have a method of verifying that I am worthy of your trust. Yes ?

but rather am not surprised when I discover they are not actually trustworthy.

Then you would like a method of confirming , that I am trustworthy

Ok , lets give me a test. You tell me a secret, then you sit back and wait . Then wait some more.

If you find out that I have given your secret away to a third party I am not Trustworthy. Also that you were wrong to trust me with your secret in the first place.

However if you find that I have not divulged anything of what you told me. I have proven myself to be Honest and Trustworthy.

Masonry , like this little saga is completely symbolic. The only person you let down as a Mason by revealing any of the so called secrets, is yourself.

right on. so why set your self up to possibly letting yourself down?

bill, for the moment you and all other internet-masons are trustworthy by me (if that even matters). i believe most masons are - probably even more so than other fraternities. i however still stand by what i said: people join fraternaties for need to belong, or cheat. no, i dont think you did it to cheat. rather i believe you did it to belong. no grand sin. it is ok. i just wouldnt have. those opinions of mine I suppose detract from the question "what actually do you people not like about Freemasonry"

my opinions are what i actually do not like about people who join Freemasonry, and are clearly unpopular opinions.

Originally posted by lost
yes i have been fair, at least how i judge fairness. please disagree.

parts of your posts have been quite fair, in fact that generally start off fair, but then you continually stoop to degrading and insulting comments.

you dont like my style of response. cry about it.

A typical example of what I mean. There is no requirement for this comment. It is a typical statement used to invoke response.

you would prefer me to play word games.

I have not played any sort of word game, if you are referring to my use of vocabulary then I can always use smaller words.

if i do not like something, i will say so -especially when asked

As is your right, and the purpose of asking questions. Have you ever thought maybe it is the way in which you repsond and not what you respond that is in question

asked to leave etc. lol.

You have not been asked to leave at any point. It was sugested that if all you want to do is be insulting that maybe this wasn't the thread for you.

by Bondi I cannot honeslty believe that.

Response by Lost
you dont have to. clearly, you do not know me, and have completetly misinterperited where i am coming from. i am not here to gain friends. i know i am outnumbered, and my lack of tact recruits few. thats fine by me. i am true to myself and my own convictions.

No one has suggested you are here to make friends, and I doubt anyone would think that any way. There are equal posters as to questions about and those answering. Admittedly you are the only one being argumentitive. As for recruiting, didn't realise you were trying to recruit followers.

By Bondiby answering the original question with "secrets" you were segregating yourself from many people. Just didn't know if you realised.

response by Lost
and that matters sooo much doesnt it? again, weak.

I was merely giving you information in case you were not aware of it, that is the idea of the thread. As for weak not sure what you mean I was not in defense of anything I was providing info.

gather all your brothers

You have assumed I am a freemason, why?

what are the secrets divulged and/or asked to keep when one is initiated/ accepted/ whatever into free-masonry?

That's easy, every one knows that anyway. During the initiation process and the progression through the degrees each person is given a sign, token and grip. (token is a word) that's the only bit that is secret.

no, i dont think you will answer my question, and frankly i dont want you to.

why ask if you don't want to know

just making a point.

What point is that.

"Is it LOGICAL that one place his hand on his holy book of choice and take an oath in order to serve?!"

A common questionI believe. Now my interpretation of this would be that in the time of early maonsry religion was regarded over everything else, and in most cases was the law. If you swore on, in example a bible, to do something and the oath entaled a forfeit if you didn't the people truly believed that this would happen. If the oath was bath twice a day otherwise your hair would turn pink, they would really believe their hair would turn pink if they didn't.

also, just because i dont make a parrallel statement about women does not mean i couldn't have.

You make my point for me, just because it isn't said doesn't mean it isn't so.

yes, for those who didnt get it, all humans are my siblings -no requirements necessary.

So you agree with incest. It easy to find wrong in any comment if you want to.


You have to realise that alot of what happens in freemasonry is an allergy of things past, from times where things were alot more "simple" in common life, in the intelligence department.

It wasn't common for people to be literate, hence the use of symbols, grips and words. It was the only way of showing your ability. The sign, grip and token is and old version of a qualification. You wouldn't expect a university to grant you a PHD just because you said you you could do a doctors job would you.

Originally posted by lost
tell me which individual i attacked. none i am sure

This bothered as to the fact that maybe I had got it wrong, so I reviewed your posts.

posted 19/11/2004 at 02:14generally, two kinds of people join them: cheaters, and followers.

This is insulting to anyone who is a member of a fraternal organisation. You have branded all.

posted on 19/11/2004 at 02:14 ,it must be grand to think you're 'elite' because you're part of some 'brotherhood' -bah! favor for a favor bullsh!t. WEAK...

You have taken your own opinion of a fraternal member and published it as fact. And then added an insult to finish

posted on 19/11/2004 at 04:00 you simple enquire? is that what you do?... lol

This one would have been ok except the lol on the end, it implies you are superior and you are mocking, something you accuse a member of fraternal institutions of being.

] posted on 19/11/2004 at 04:00 with what bingo thinks this thread is supposed to be about

This is aimed at me personally, the fact you feel the need to replace my name with something else is insulting, and a lack of respect for someone you don�t know and can in no way judge.

] posted on 19/11/2004 at 04:00 oh no i've failed! -you know, that was my ultimate goal; to make a 'true anti-masonry' proud... Noooooo,

More mocking, still acting superior.

posted on 19/11/2004 at 04:00 or what?

Encouraging a threat is the possible aim for this. Strange you�d do it to some one who has been permanently passive??

posted on 19/11/2004 at 04:00 bingo, do your worst

Challenging to argue I imagine although it does imply that you want me to lower my own tone and step into this insulting arena, will never happen.

posted on 20/11/2004 at 06:1that is the title of the thread, and yes bingo i tried so very hard

Again lack of respect to use my name.

I became a little tired of ready, but then I came across your next statement to quote the best thing so far, after all this degrading, opinionated banter you have posted you then say

posted on 21/11/2004 at 05:32 I dont know much about masonry

Why don�t you find out before mouthing off.

Now your last post, that's more like it.

posted on 21/11/2004 at 23:28 my opinions are what i actually do not like about people who join Freemasonry, and are clearly unpopular opinions.

This has been the problem. You opinion is not unpopular as to the opinion itself, it's just this is a thread about freemasonry as an organisation. Granted you will find masons with the traits you dislike, as you will find vicars, school teachers, politicians (probably a few of them), etc with them as well, but why make the point in a thread about freemasonry: the fraternity.

You are not disliked, not by me anyway and I am someone you have aimed your aggression at. I made the point early on that you may be missing the point of the thread, and it seems you have now realised this.

Maybe you have questions regarding freemasonry, the organisation, you would like answered?



[edit on 22/11/2004 by Bondi]

Originally posted by Bondi

by Saint4God
Don't have to 'claim' to be one, in order to be one.

Not sure what you mean here. Although the setence is self explanitory the original response was to a claim that freemasonry claims to be elitist, or have I read it wrong?

Do you think Freemason's are elite? or that they think they are elite? Is this regarding the Fraternal opinion or some masons in particular?

Sorry for the quiz, but I have not heard this point made that much before, and am particular interested in it.

Sorry for the choppy verbiage, I'll clarify. I think although Masons may not necessarily have the intention of being elitists, they are. Why? They are an exclusive organization. Exclusion means that some people are not invited in while others are not. By doing this, leaving people out, you're telling them they don't qualify and there's very little or nothing they can do about it. I would never turn anyone away who wanted to be my 'brother'. My questions to Masonic Light were to this point and seems to confirm my initial claim that this is the case.

The problem I have is that there are Christians (those who are to care for and guide their brothers/sisters whether literal or figuratively speaking) who say "Sorry, private session. You can't come in but I'll see you when it's over".

I really appreciate the responses Bondi and Masonic Light, but feel there is a fundamental conceptual problem with the organization.

[edit on 22-11-2004 by saint4God]

Originally posted by lost
right on. so why set your self up to possibly letting yourself down?

bill, for the moment you and all other internet-masons are trustworthy by me (if that even matters). i believe most masons are - probably even more so than other fraternities. i however still stand by what i said: people join fraternaties for need to belong, or cheat. no, i dont think you did it to cheat. rather i believe you did it to belong. no grand sin. it is ok. i just wouldnt have. those opinions of mine I suppose detract from the question "what actually do you people not like about Freemasonry"

my opinions are what i actually do not like about people who join Freemasonry, and are clearly unpopular opinions.

Yes of course it MATTERS.

Maybe I did it so that others could belong to me, with me.

remember that famous quot " ask not what your Country can do for you, rather ask what you can do for your Country."

Unpopular , well it depends on the cirle you move in.

I believe in Freemasonry there are some basic priciples that I am unable to observe in other walks of life, Honor, Trust Virtue. Its not perfect, then neither am I.

Originally posted by saint4God

They are an exclusive organization. Exclusion means that some people are not invited in while others are not. By doing this, leaving people out, you're telling them they don't qualify and there's very little or nothing they can do about it. I would never turn anyone away who wanted to be my 'brother'.

Can I come to your church sunday morning and pray to Allah? That probably sounds wrong, I know what I mean and reading it myself doesn't sound right, hope you get the intention of my comment, can't think of anbother way of putting it.

The problem I have is that there are Christians (those who are to care for and guide their brothers/sisters whether literal or figuratively speaking) who say "Sorry, private session. You can't come in but I'll see you when it's over".

I can see where you are coming from. How can you guide/care when there is exclusion involved. And i understand that freemasonry has a requirement of membership, which itself has requirements, but attendance in most areas is once a month, for approx 8 months of the year. Does this minor exclusion really stop any Christian, or non-christian for that fact, looking after there friends, family and fellow man kind.

I really appreciate the responses Bondi and Masonic Light

As your contribtutions are also appreciated.

, but feel there is a fundamental conceptual problem with the organization.

This basic, and abstract, problem you refer to is it just the exclusion thing?

I have not played any sort of word game, if you are referring to my use of vocabulary then I can always use smaller words.

yes you could, but its not necessary. i understand your current vocabulary. i just dont put up any fronts or place myself on a pedastal. i certainly dont claim to, and i try not to act as if i was some elitist. of course i cannot know, but i wouldnt say the same for everyone here.

As for recruiting, didn't realise you were trying to recruit followers.... and...... Have you ever thought maybe it is the way in which you repsond and not what you respond that is in question

yes. exactly my point. i am not here to sugarcoat. my point is made the way i like it to be made. maybe i am rude by some standards. i like to think of myself as honest. i am not 'trying' to do anything but defend my own personal opinions.

You have not been asked to leave at any point.

youre right, it was more like 'told' with a smug 'please.'

If not try some where else please.

and

I was merely giving you information in case you were not aware of it

but some how you failed to fill me in on all the other valuable infromation about secrets. like 'some children tell secrets to get the best of their foes' and 'once i broke a promise by telling a secret that i was supposed to keep.' etc...

You have assumed I am a freemason, why?

sorry, my mistake. i then address my question to those that are admittably freemasons. anyone? remember FULL detail.

What point is that.

the point is that those people, unless they should choose to break their oaths, have placed themselves in compomising positions, and what for? to belong.

"Is it LOGICAL that one place his hand on his holy book of choice and take an oath in order to serve?!"

A common questionI believe. Now my interpretation of this would be that in the time of early maonsry religion was regarded over everything else, and in most cases was the law. If you swore on, in example a bible, to do something and the oath entaled a forfeit if you didn't the people truly believed that this would happen. If the oath was bath twice a day otherwise your hair would turn pink, they would really believe their hair would turn pink if they didn't.

you didnt answer my question. it is a Y or N question. another, but more creative example of word games.

You make my point for me, just because it isn't said doesn't mean it isn't so.

good point! similarly, just because certain freemasons dont claim to be 'elitists' doesnt mean they dont act and treat others as if they were.

quote: Originally posted by lost
tell me which individual i attacked. none i am sure.

This bothered as to the fact that maybe I had got it wrong, so I reviewed your posts.

you twist my words. i agree, i did attack individuals. i only claim to not to have attacked first. above you quote me as if i am claiming not to at all, when infact the original text from whence that came reads:

go re-read my first post, than tell me which individual i attacked. none i am sure.

difference eh?

This is insulting to anyone who is a member of a fraternal organisation. You have branded all

remember the word generally?! it started that oh so branding sentence.

\Gen"er*al*ly\, adv. 1. In general; commonly; extensively, though not universally; most frequently......

......might i add, however NOT ABSOLUTELY

concerning my multitude of insulting posts, i wish only to let it be known that those were fueled by others condescending remarks. i am just more blunt than they. and as to my apparently 'superior' (thanks) remarks, i do not claim to be superior over anyone, however, i do believe my logic to be superior to the logic of others in this discussion.

Why don�t you find out before mouthing off.

way to go bondi! pretty bold question from someone who is permanently passive. to answer, ' because that is all i need to know to answer the original question.... remember, the title?'




[edit on 22-11-2004 by lost]

By Lost
exactly my point. i am not here to sugarcoat�maybe i am rude�i am not 'trying' to do anything but defend my own personal opinions

Are you required to slander, insult and be degrading in order for you not to be sugar coating it? There is no maybe according to your posts in this thread, you are rude, as for defending your point, that�s fine defend it, but no one else has resorted to insults as far as I can see, and as for your opinion, again this thread is about the FRATERNITY CALLED FREEMASONRY not your opinion of people.

By Lost
youre right, it was more like 'told' with a smug 'please.'

If that is the way you have interpreted the response that is not my fault, at no point have I been smug, I have not used whoo hoo�s or cry about it�s, I have not told you to do anything. By your own admittance your comments were regarding people and not the Fraternity known as Freemasonry, your were merely directed to the topic and told your were not posting accordingly. Most people would of said, thanks, or sorry didn�t realise let me re-word it then, but instead you decided to go on the attack. Not my fault.

by Lostfailed to fill me in on all the other valuable infromation about secrets

I believe I answered that one

by Bondi
That's easy, every one knows that anyway. During the initiation process and the progression through the degrees each person is given a sign, token and grip. (token is a word) that's the only bit that is secret.

by Lostyou didnt answer my question. it is a Y or N question. another, but more creative example of word games.

Do you know what the oath(s) are?

In the context in which the oath is taken there is no problem with placing your hand on a holy book, as the first thing you swear, above all else, in priority to all else, is your god.

The oath in which you swear to live by the standards of a Mason, which include honesty, love, faith and so on there are certain aspects that take priority of the rulings of freemasonry, that of you faith, the law of your country and the needs of your family. They all come before any requirement of freemasonry. And any �mason� who doesn�t abide by this and puts freemasonry before any of them, is in fact not a freemason.

by Lost
good point! similarly, just because certain freemasons dont claim to be 'elitists' doesnt mean they dont act and treat others as if they were.

Again you are opinionating on people. I will not disagree with you, I bet there are freemasons who believe they are superior due to membership, the same as some priest feel superior because they wear a collar, and some police feel superior because they wear a uniform with a shiny badge, but that doesn�t mean all do. I cannot believe you are still ranting about people. Why don�t you start a thread saying Why I Hate People, where you can list all the negative points about humanity and rant, rave and argue with anyone who should post there.

With regards your attacking, you are correct your first post does not legitimately attack anyone, it makes a sweeping statement regarding fraternal organisations. But then, why did you go on the attack, what was it that sent you over the edge, and why the hell did you aim it at me?

Your use of the dictionary for the word generally is good, maybe you should try styling your thoughts to suit. Seeing as you are posting points about individuals, towards an organisation In general; commonly; extensively, though not universally; most frequently implying the fraternities have the aims of the few.

by Lost
i do not claim to be superior over anyone�i do believe my logic to be superior to the logic of others in this discussion.

Freemasonry doesn�t claim to be superior to any one either, but like you it feels the need to make that known and defend itself. With regards to logic, I would say your logic is lacking seeing as you continually post remarks regarding individual, in a thread about a group, and still continually make remarks in a thread you yourself have said you don�t know about. And to claim superiority you only need to believe you are better at something than someone else, therefore you do claim superiority over contributors of this thread.

by Lostway to go bondi! pretty bold question from someone who is permanently passive. to answer, ' because that is all i need to know to answer the original question.... remember, the title?'

Firstly let me start by thanking you for using my name for a change.

It was not a question, it was an idea, a thought. As for passive I wasn�t attacking you, you have said yourself maybe i am rude by some standards it�s the same said in a different phrase.
As to the title, if you read my very first post, it states I am interested in your comments about freemasonry, not freemason�s.

As for secrecy I have told you what they keep secret, is it really that big a deal to you that you do not know what the signs, tokens and grips are for an organisation full of cheaters and weak people� Is really enough to dislike a group of men that contribute so much to charity and the community. Would you really condemn millions of people around the world who donate so much of their time to improving the communities in which we all live in, donating millions to the charities and organisation around the world fighting famine, cancer, post war devastations because they wont let you know how they shake hands. Where is your logic now?

better bondi!

i am impressed. you're getting heated. you feel strongly about something. you have conviction....

... but you still didnt answer the question. YES or NO:

Is it LOGICAL that a man put his hand on his holy book of choice and make an oath in order to serve?

answer the question................ or ramble on some more.

Most people would of said, thanks, or sorry didn�t realise let me re-word it

yeah, most non-elitist readers would understand what i meant from the get go and would'nt need me to reword it. dont worry though, i did re-word it for those such individuals at the bottom of this reply.

I have not told you to do anything

if you really want me to, i will break down that sentence of yours showing you full and well you indeed DID tell me to do something. seeing as you are not a moniter of any kind, i interperited that as a very snobbish thing for you to direct towards me.

Why don�t you start a thread saying Why I Hate People

lol..thats the funniest thing you've said yet!!

and why the hell did you aim it at me?

good job! you can use profanity too. see, were not all that different. from the above statement, i now believe you actually have no idea why i aimed it at you. if you really do not know why i directed it at you i apologize for the surprise attack. in answer to your question i point you to your responce to my first post, which i interperit as very condescending.

Would you really condemn millions of people around the world....

well, if thats not a word game, i dont know....

when bondi, did i ever condemn anyone here?

wait wait.... so my big vice in this thread is that i attack individuals and not the group, but somehow i am condemning millions? hmmmm?

bondi, you're slipping. you totally twist my words, and you still contradict yourself. hows that for logic?

for the last time and structured for your original title/question, my answer:

What actually I do not like about freemasonry is the fact that it and other similar fraternities/orginizations are secretive, thus recruiting not entirely but including some individuals who I deem cheats and/or weak followers.

bondi, we can go tit for tat on this. accept my answer as it is perfectly crafted above or continue to whine about me being insulting. i have given you exactly what you asked for and HOW you asked for it. everyone can now understand what i see as the basic flaw with freemasonry.

Well, guys, I think lost has just about had it. All he can do now is resort to insults and half-baked arguments because the truth is still the truth no matter what. Lost, you have your right to your opinion, and unfortunately you have the right to be as antagonistic as you�d like, both rights that I respect. Bondi, my friend, I commend you for the way you have handled this rude, rather abrasive fellow, and I look forward to further discourse with you in the future. My hat is off to you sir.


Lost, my opinion of you (not that you care, or should for that matter) has not changed a bit. I still am under the impression that your aim here is to incite argument rather than civilized conversation. I'm glad you like my avatar, though, it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

I would like to address a comment you made, however late it might be.

In the beginning of this thread you said that (generally) "cheaters" and "followers" join fraternities, from "bohemian grove to your keg party frats". But let's think about this:


1) To join the Masons, THE CANDIDATE must come to the Masons. That shows initiative. Initiative is generally a trait displayed by leaders, not followers.

2) When you become a Mason, you take an obligation to be an upright, moral man. You must promise NOT to CHEAT, wrong, or defraud. Doesn�t sound like a cheater�s club to me. In fact, it looks to be quite the opposite. Cheaters by definition would not have the integrity required to be a good Mason.

3) To be a Mason, one must have a sense of morals, ethics, and believe in God. Take a look at society. Are the followers the ones who stand up for what is right? I hardly think so. In today�s society, the followers are the ones who fall into the pit of despair and degradation that is mainstream media and believe whatever is spoonfed to them by Ted Koppel, or whoever. They are the ones who are spiritually bankrupt, because they simply follow the crowd and care nothing of learning or enlightening themselves. The people who will stand up for what is right (not just what they think is right, but what we all know is right) are the leaders in my book, and we could all learn from their example.


I could go on, but I think you get the point (or not ). In short, lost, I respect your right to have an opinion, however I think your opinion lacks good solid reasoning. Your main qualm was that Freemasons keep secrets. EVERYONE has secrets dude, even you. Admit it. So, really, as Bondi pointed out already, I think your problem lies less with Freemasonry than people in general, and even then the problems you bring up generally only apply to those who ARE NOT Freemasons, as Masons hold themselves to a higher standard. They pride themselves on their honor and integrity, not to mention the fact that they encourage a man to THINK FOR HIMSELF. These are not the teachings of cheaters or followers by any means.


[edit on 11/22/04 by The Axeman]