Why I Think God Warned us About Conservatives and Capitalism.

reply to post by iRoyalty


compassionate capitalism can do great works for this world,
but greed for greeds sake,
this idea that "profit" is the ideal,
is against every thing that Jesus taught us,

cannibalistic capitalism, where the ONLY ideal for society,
is the 1% live in opulence, while the children starve,
can do great harm.

now more than ever do we need to distinguish between "true capitalism" (a society that works)
as compared to
"disaster capitalism" (a society that only works for the 1%)

it is not capitalism per say that is the problem,
it is that our current version is perverted by the CULT that true happiness is WEALTH of money,
instead of WEALTH of love and compassion.

xploder

reply to post by BeliefInReality


Of course, this is fair, I'm not saying I agree that the dude who flunked school and is stuck cleaning floors should get the same as someone who has dedicated their lives to medicine. However, Jesus and the Bible seem to state that they want those who have lots of money, instead of 'living it up', to actually give their money to the poor so they may lead a life without hardship.

TheWrightWing

Charity is certainly not left wing in any way at all.

Any leftist will affirm: We need to tax more so government can spend more to fix all our woes, not charity.

Which if they are honest, will admit it's their form of "charity"; leftism is historically very generous... with other peoples money.

No I agree, everyone should be charitable regardless of political orientation. Yes left wing politics tax more and the front will be on the rich, I get what your saying though, having that tax put on them is the same as forcing it from them, however, if they were a good christian and they knew their money was going to help the poor people of this country, should they not be happy?

So you do not think Jesus would approve of the re-distribution of the wealth of the rich going into the hands of the poor?

XPLodERthis CULT of money is an affront to god,

According to whom?

i reply as an individual, from my own understanding, and after reading the popes latest work on the subject

Wealth is irrelevant when it comes to salvation is the clear message.

i disagree, a homeless child is at your door, cold and hungry, what do YOU do?

If you have much or none, all have the same condition to enter the pearly gates of heaven.

your compassion for others is much more important, than your bank balance,

Money has no bearing on access to the hereafter.

what YOU do with that money DOES have a bearing!

Wealth is not the sin, refusal to accept the new covenant is.

how can a charitable person ever amass great wealth in the first instance?

How much plainer can this be made clear?

let me try to be clear,

wealth is not evil, the love of wealth is evil,
not using wealth to help WHEN YOU CAN is evil,
the LOVE of money is a CULT that breads evil,

so choose,
love your brother
or love money

which is it?

xploder

reply to post by XPLodER


Hmm I disagree, most of the passages of the bible that I have found about wealth all seem to condemn it, you did make a good point about "how can you be charitable without amassing wealth", but I believe that people that hoard their wealth is not shown in a good light in the bible. The message I get is that it is ok to make money and have money (obviously) however, if you do not live humbly, with only the things you need, and you use the rest to help the poor, you have a better chance of getting into the kingdom of heaven than someone who has amassed a great wealth and splashes out on themselves all the time (which is what Capitalism needs to work)

iRoyalty
reply to post by XPLodER

 

Hmm I disagree, most of the passages of the bible that I have found about wealth all seem to condemn it, you did make a good point about "how can you be charitable without amassing wealth", but I believe that people that hoard their wealth is not shown in a good light in the bible. The message I get is that it is ok to make money and have money (obviously) however, if you do not live humbly, with only the things you need, and you use the rest to help the poor, you have a better chance of getting into the kingdom of heaven than someone who has amassed a great wealth and splashes out on themselves all the time (which is what Capitalism needs to work)

as i under stand it, IMHO

god gives us all our talents as "gifts"
some produce great art, enjoyed by all
some produce scientific discoveries, for the betterment of all
some understand finance, for the betterment of THEMSELVES

in science if i wanted i could use Newtons equations, i could use Maxwells equations to make a new discovery,
we are in science "standing on the shoulders of giants" and because the advancement of science is the ideal,
(every one benefits) everyone contributes to the WHOLE.

society and understanding is the ideal and so is available to all in equal measure.
scientists who give humanity a better understanding are befitting us all
humbly many of these discoveries a freely shared, and contribute to further discoveries.

it is this "selfless" nature to the benefit of society that makes science a force for good.

money and the field of finance on the other hand, demands that "profit"
is the ideal and the benefit is PERSONAL and not SOCIETAL

to be given a Nobel prize is society recognising what a scientist has done to expand knowledge

a bonus to a banker is to recognise they "earned" money from society for a small percentage of the population,
sometimes causing great heart ache to the society they live.

i don't begrudge the Nobel winner his prize money (recognition of benefit to society)
but i do a banker who has caused great harm to society (recognition of great harm to a society)

the wealth of money or knowledge can be used for good
or
for harm.

it is WHO benefits, the self or the whole.

however, if you do not live humbly, with only the things you need, and you use the rest to help the poor, you have a better chance of getting into the kingdom of heaven than someone who has amassed a great wealth and splashes out on themselves all the time

as i understand it you are correct, it is not the wealth that causes problems,
it is what you do with it,

wealth could be intelligence or money or people to love,
its what you do that matters,

but if you have excess, and decide to feast while those around you starve,
you will be judged harshly.

that's my personal opinion.


xploder

reply to post by Destinyone


Sorry Des, just seen this! This is a good point that I wanted to pick up on...

Luke 6:20
"And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said: “Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God."

James 2:5
Listen, my beloved brothers, has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he has promised to those who love him?

Seems like the Bible favours the poor and faithful over most, especially with the quote “Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God".

iRoyalty
reply to post by XPLodER

 

Hmm I disagree, most of the passages of the bible that I have found about wealth all seem to condemn it

By inventing meaning that is not there, of course you can pretend plain scripture to mean anything you wish.

Once again, it's very clear: You cannot buy your way into heaven.

And that's all it means.

XPLodER
money and the field of finance on the other hand, demands that "profit"
is the ideal and the benefit is PERSONAL and not SOCIETAL

Right there, nail on the head. Capitalism DEMANDS profit and profit will come before charity, humanity and even the good lord himself! I do not believe this Capitalist society where profits are more important than COMMON HUMAN KINDNESS is what Jesus had in mind. My main point on this whole thread (that no one has picked up on, perhaps I should have made it clearer) is that Jesus would not approve of this capitalist system based on never ending profit. In fact the bible warns us that greed will not get you into the Kingdom of heaven, so what do the 'Christian' leaders do? Create a system built on greed.

iRoyalty
Seems like the Bible favours the poor and faithful over most, especially with the quote “Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God".

A very comforting thing to say to the impoverished who are suffering, words from James, not God, not a command, not a condition that equals "Poor people automatically get into heaven".

Offering the poor hope of heaven if they accept the covenant is entirely proper and true.

iRoyalty

XPLodER
money and the field of finance on the other hand, demands that "profit"
is the ideal and the benefit is PERSONAL and not SOCIETAL

Right there, nail on the head. Capitalism DEMANDS profit and profit will come before charity

Profit makes charity possible. Without profit there can be no money for charity.

Nail on the head.

reply to post by TheWrightWing


Yeah I get that, but the passages I have repeatedly quoted on here show that wealth is not favoured. A faithful poor man has a better chance than a faithful rich man, wealth is 100% an issue. It's there black and white. So far you have provided worthy information to make an interesting debate on this topic, but your last few posts have just been calling me ignorant and saying I'm spinning the passages for my own agenda. Not true, I have no strong opinion on this, I have no agenda, but there are sooo many passages condemning people who horde money and saying how “Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God", how can that mean anything other than "Blessed are you who are poor"?

Please go back to posting constructive arguments, I genuinely enjoy your point of view, not that I agree with it, but I don't get much of an opportunity to get opinions on my views from someone with right wing ideology.

TheWrightWing

iRoyalty

XPLodER
money and the field of finance on the other hand, demands that "profit"
is the ideal and the benefit is PERSONAL and not SOCIETAL

Right there, nail on the head. Capitalism DEMANDS profit and profit will come before charity

Profit makes charity possible. Without profit there can be no money for charity.

Nail on the head.

Ok, sorry ranted a little in my last post, this is much better.

Yes you do need to have wealth to be able to share it, but capitalism relies on uncapped and infinite growth, with demands and infinite improvement on profit margins. This takes priority over any for of charity and promotes a hoarding of wealth, which is condemned in the Bible.

TheWrightWing

iRoyalty

XPLodER
money and the field of finance on the other hand, demands that "profit"
is the ideal and the benefit is PERSONAL and not SOCIETAL

Right there, nail on the head. Capitalism DEMANDS profit and profit will come before charity

Profit makes charity possible. Without profit there can be no money for charity.

Nail on the head.

what about charity of time?
take time to teach a child, bake for the homeless?
what about charity of knowledge,
use your talent to help design a community garden where others can plant and reap food?

to see charity as ONLY about money is incorrect IMHO

yes having monetary wealth allows for more charity,
but what about your time?
are you to busy building wealth to ever have charity?

xploder

iRoyalty
reply to post by TheWrightWing

 

Yeah I get that, but the passages I have repeatedly quoted on here show that wealth is not favoured.

That's the prism you impose on the passages, completely missing the actual message which is, once again: Money cannot purchase a ticket to heaven.

You seem obsessed by other peoples wealth to the point where you are incapable of understanding even very clear wording.

A form of myopia.

XPLodER
what about charity of time?
take time to teach a child, bake for the homeless?
what about charity of knowledge,
use your talent to help design a community garden where others can plant and reap food?

to see charity as ONLY about money is incorrect IMHO

yes having monetary wealth allows for more charity,
but what about your time?
are you to busy building wealth to ever have charity?

xploder

Well, then that has nothing to do with this topic, since money is not involved.

Spend your own time any way you wish.

You uh, wouldn't be thinking about forcing other people by law to spend their time how you see fit, would you?

iRoyalty
This takes priority over any for of charity and promotes a hoarding of wealth, which is condemned in the Bible.

You run your business how you see fit. Is anyone forcing you to operate otherwise?

Hoarding wealth is not condemned.

Not being charitable is frowned upon. Charity is an important part of Christian life.

iRoyalty
Yeah I get that, but the passages I have repeatedly quoted on here show that wealth is not favoured.

Those passages showed that wealth has no weight when it comes to salvation.

Neither favoured or abhorred. Meaningless when it comes to salvation.

That is the point, once again.

reply to post by TheWrightWing

Well, then that has nothing to do with this topic, since money is not involved.

Spend your own time any way you wish.

You uh, wouldn't be thinking about forcing other people by law to spend their time how you see fit, would you?

not at all,
free will is a gift,
it is your choice to be charitable,
it is your choice to spend your time as you wish,

but to some time=money

i choose to be charitable with my time

xploder

TheWrightWing

iRoyalty
This takes priority over any for of charity and promotes a hoarding of wealth, which is condemned in the Bible.

You run your business how you see fit. Is anyone forcing you to operate otherwise?

Hoarding wealth is not condemned.

Not being charitable is frowned upon. Charity is an important part of Christian life.

Luke 12:33
Sell your possessions, and give to the needy. Provide yourselves with moneybags that do not grow old, with a treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches and no moth destroys.

"Provide yourselves with money bags that do not grow old" Clearly means do not keep your money in your money bags, unless you get something different from it? If you believe this does not mean hoarding a wealth is not shown in a good light then what do you get from it?

Luke 16:19-31
“There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.

This one just speaks for itself, what do you get from this?

Also I realise you have said that these passages are from men who have written them and not the word of God, but that is what Christians use to say that Jesus was real, also your argument is what I use to debate Christ's existence, so lets assume they are are the word of God for this argument.



EDIT re-read the first passage, I now think it means more that the 'money bags' you have in heaven will not grow old... not sure what that could mean though... still interested in your view.