Another transit on the infinite loop.

Intro
I have come to a deep and most profound belief, and yet inside I have always felt this way as far back as I can remember. I feel that there is enough evidence to rule this opinion to be possible and worth sharing here on ATS. I also believe I am not alone in this thought and although many may not agree with everything in part, they do have the same sense of belief in what I am about to share.

Origin
This is a tricky subject, as events become history, and history begets legends, and legends morph into mythology, the image of the truth gets fuzzier, it is not to say however that no truth in myths exist, but that fact from fiction becomes blurry and all potentials must be considered but no information can be taken as fact.

Enough rambling, I find it hard to believe that in the last 3,000 years we went from no more then hunting and gathering to space faring beings, and yet in the past 250,000+ years of our particular incarnation of humanoid we have not achieved this more then once, if not countless times. I find that ancient literature that speaks of golden ages, ascended mankind, godlike beings with amazing abilities and tools, to be not just possible but very likely. This however is a hard idea to swallow, the idea that progress is not linear and that we continue to be caught in the eddy of time, and to swallow our pride in excepting that not only are we not the first in what we do, but may in fact have been exceeded by incredible means while still unable to break free from these cycles.

Or not...

Is it also possible that during our cycles of progress and digress that groups of mankind have been able to split off, in our current age there is an emphasis on building underground bunkers, colonizing mars, and colonizing space. It would seem only likely that were we to achieve the means in the past that we would have acted upon those means, the question then begging to be asked is how long would we maintain a sufficiently advanced society in these less ideal environments?

To answer this question, I think we must first understand the fundamental process of collapse, collapse can be initiated by any number of triggers, but the process is always the same, social, economic and political breakdown, a complete abandonment of a particular way of life, and movement towards a more stable but often more primitive system.

However within a more restrictive and hostile environmental, there would be an increase in reliance on technology for survival, this in turns grows the mechanism to filter societies that may not be as resilience to collapse by providing no means of an alternative or no fallback to a primitive way of life.

For instance living in space is extremely hostile to humans, forcing us to rely on technology to survive, this in turns leads to a culture that is completely technologically focused, everyone would essentially need to be an engineer, and those that survive the easiest will be the most innovative. This in turn forces a rapid advancement in technology and a true Independence from fallback means of survival.

After all a society on earth can revert to any stage of human development as the technology to survive is minimal, clothes, shelter and food are easily supplied by the natural environment.

I guess to summarize my point, it may be likely we are not alone, but also more likely it is just cousins of prior generations, "Vrilya: The Coming Race" is a worthy read that expands this concept and plays it out with a fork of humans from ancient times that moved underground and has flourished since.

To interpret myths I think we should look at what we know with today's science, and try to understand how it could be possible, all too often we discount a story or idea as being impossible before we give any consideration.

Please understand these thoughts are my belief and like any belief, without true observation of the facts all information is questionable and potentially false. We should never take another's words as the end all fact, unless we can experience what they did in order to come to their conclusion of fact, and even experiences are potentially false.

reply to post by nw15062


Give the time it takes for radio active isotopes to break down (over 240000 years) and the possibility that as you say if we (or someone before) have previously ever attained such a level of technology and given the short time period in the rise of modern technology then you have to ask yourself these two simple questions among many others.

If they ever found a way to escape would there isolation make them more vulnerable to viral and bacterial infections so prohibiting them from returning to the biosphere?.
Would there prolonged separation and or small gene pool mean that they were still recognisable as the same species after such a time period?.

Now while some part of me feels there has indeed been an advanced culture and despite the lack of concrete 'accepted' proof being extant (Unless you accept the moon structures are real that many of us see when we look at images and wonder what was being hidden with all of the obvious air brushing of those same photographs) but I do not know if they were human in the same way as we are though Humanoid I have no doubt and I have a feeling there is an entire epoch of lost knowledge before this age and possible before the rise of homo sapiens with possibly an entire ecosystem having evoloved and disappeared prior to 650 million years ago (so I am going right back) and I believe that the cydonia structures on mars are indeed artificial (but very very ancient) and may hold a key to this question.
It is best arriving at your own conclusions though as not only do no two of our minds work exactly alike but independent observation of any phenomena be it theoretical hypothesis or simple observation of ongoing events always provides more insight, I look forward to yours.
S+F

reply to post by nw15062


S & F

Although I'll often read and give thread recognition by starring and flagging I rarely if ever participate in another members thread in this forum for reasons that are my own but I had to chime in and say that was very well written and I got the meaning very clearly you were conveying. I too have felt as you have described on many occasion.

Thanks for posting and I too am looking forward to more of your forum participation.

Good thread

I would also like to point out about technology advancement and culture. A possible trigger I see is when you have two different cultures on two different continents, one of these cultures progresses into science and technology and has developed wonderful things while the other culture does not. The culture that doesn't develop there own things eventually has access to them as the other culture proceeds ahead with ever greater technology. How can we expect the culture that does not develop their own things be trusted to utilize what they have acquired from the advanced culture to be responsible with it?

For example: First time a human discovered fire and then burned his home and food.

A race giving a nuclear power source to another then the less advance race destroys themselves after they attempt to weaponize nuclear power.

Someone brought from a 3rd world country and set up in New York and given a car to drive.


Sometimes it needs to be pointed out that human cultures do not all advance at the same rate, Regardless of factor contributing. The exact same comparisons can be made between modern day humans and any theoretical ETs civilizations thought to exist.

These are all great points you guys have brought to the table, In regards to the last post, our cultural maturity has a large impact on how we use the technology, where as the technology and knowledge is inherently neutral in terms of good or bad.

I have to also wonder that if technologically advanced groups of humans may have forked from us then is it also likely that more primitive as well, for instance, is it also possible we could be looking at some of our ancestors backwards, that neanderthals could have been a fork better suited for the harsher and colder ice age. I hate the consequence of questioning our accepted scientific understanding, but also dread more so the possibility that our understanding could be wrong.

And further more who is to say we are base and not a fork?

I love reading others feed back on this idea, so please do not hold back.

Me thinks the OP is a Robert Jordan fan

S&F

reply to post by IkNOwSTuff


I am afraid I had to look up the name, I was surprised to find he is the author of the book wheel of time, I have heard of the name of the book, and now I am intrigued to read it, however I am afraid I can not as of yet say that I am a fan of his work until I can spend sometime with it.

nw15062

Intro
I have come to a deep and most profound belief, and yet inside I have always felt this way as far back as I can remember. I feel that there is enough evidence to rule this opinion to be possible and worth sharing here on ATS. I also believe I am not alone in this thought and although many may not agree with everything in part, they do have the same sense of belief in what I am about to share.

If you believe such evidence exists at all, then let me borrow a line from Hanslune and say... Why don't you present us with the three best pieces of evidence you believe exists for such a thing to be true?

nw15062Origin
This is a tricky subject, as events become history, and history begets legends, and legends morph into mythology, the image of the truth gets fuzzier, it is not to say however that no truth in myths exist, but that fact from fiction becomes blurry and all potentials must be considered but no information can be taken as fact.

Enough rambling, I find it hard to believe that in the last 3,000 years we went from no more then hunting and gathering to space faring beings, and yet in the past 250,000+ years of our particular incarnation of humanoid we have not achieved this more then once, if not countless times.

It would be easier to follow along with your claims if you would get your dates right.
Hunter-gatherer cultures exist to this very day. In 1000 BC, there were plenty of literate civilizations around. Please note that agriculture began at least 12,000 years ago (or so.)

nw15062
I find that ancient literature that speaks of golden ages, ascended mankind, godlike beings with amazing abilities and tools, to be not just possible but very likely.

This is an example of what I was talking about. Which "ancient literature" are you talking about here? Have you actually read any of it, or are you going by what you've been told?

nw15062I guess to summarize my point, it may be likely we are not alone, but also more likely it is just cousins of prior generations, "Vrilya: The Coming Race" is a worthy read that expands this concept and plays it out with a fork of humans from ancient times that moved underground and has flourished since.

You realize that this book is a novel, right?

Harte

Harte

nw15062

Intro
I have come to a deep and most profound belief, and yet inside I have always felt this way as far back as I can remember. I feel that there is enough evidence to rule this opinion to be possible and worth sharing here on ATS. I also believe I am not alone in this thought and although many may not agree with everything in part, they do have the same sense of belief in what I am about to share.

If you believe such evidence exists at all, then let me borrow a line from Hanslune and say... Why don't you present us with the three best pieces of evidence you believe exists for such a thing to be true?

nw15062Origin
This is a tricky subject, as events become history, and history begets legends, and legends morph into mythology, the image of the truth gets fuzzier, it is not to say however that no truth in myths exist, but that fact from fiction becomes blurry and all potentials must be considered but no information can be taken as fact.

Enough rambling, I find it hard to believe that in the last 3,000 years we went from no more then hunting and gathering to space faring beings, and yet in the past 250,000+ years of our particular incarnation of humanoid we have not achieved this more then once, if not countless times.

It would be easier to follow along with your claims if you would get your dates right.
Hunter-gatherer cultures exist to this very day. In 1000 BC, there were plenty of literate civilizations around. Please note that agriculture began at least 12,000 years ago (or so.)

nw15062
I find that ancient literature that speaks of golden ages, ascended mankind, godlike beings with amazing abilities and tools, to be not just possible but very likely.

This is an example of what I was talking about. Which "ancient literature" are you talking about here? Have you actually read any of it, or are you going by what you've been told?

nw15062I guess to summarize my point, it may be likely we are not alone, but also more likely it is just cousins of prior generations, "Vrilya: The Coming Race" is a worthy read that expands this concept and plays it out with a fork of humans from ancient times that moved underground and has flourished since.

You realize that this book is a novel, right?

Harte

Well believing evidence suggest this may be possible and claiming evidence proves something is true are not the same thing, I believe that evidence has thrown into question our current system of ideas, I then speculate at other possibilities, I do not make claim that the evidence proves anything, but our most ancient stone structures are our most advanced stone structures, and a regression of quality occurs following. The Khufu sarcophagus has been painted in the last 200 years which cast into question who actually made the pyramids themselves, and the constant sightings in the remotest of places including but not limited to oceans, volcanoes and remote regions in Alaska.

In regards to your second refute, to accept one thing does not mean to deny another, you are right there are still hunting and gathering societies left on earth, that does not mean that it is not possible for other societies to advance or have advanced in the past, in fact the Greeks advanced pretty far in their time, with the first steam engine( tinker toy)as well as many other mechanical marvels, and profound understanding of math. Yet for how long was there knowledge swept aside before being reclaimed.

I have read many stories and legends, from the Native Americans claiming to have come from deep in the earth, or from the stars. Legends of a culture before a great calamity such as the flood, to even stories of flying craft and battles in the sky. I do not presume you know nothing so please do not presume i know nothing, your lack of knowing my knowledge does not mean I have a lack of knowledge.

And lastly yes I know it is a novel, I said in my statement that it explorers this concept through a interesting story of potential.

I hope I do not offend you, but I ask you either contribute constructively or peacefully move on.

On a side note I find it very interesting that most people here have twice the number of stars then they do post, while you seem to have half, I have to speculate if this is a way to identify ones character.

reply to post by nw15062


Weird!!!!

His books all start with

The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again. In one Age, called the Third Age by some, an Age yet to come, an Age long past, a wind rose in the Mountains of Mist. The wind was not the beginning. There are neither beginnings nor endings to the turning of the Wheel of Time. But it was a beginning.

Reminded me of what you wrote.

Its easilly the best series Ive ever read, well worth it

reply to post by IkNOwSTuff


Thank you I will add them to my reading list.

Interesting theory.
My comments are pure supposition with very little facts to back me up. Your presentation has a better reach than my observations.
The far past had knowledge beyond our reach or outside of our world view. Could it be that each successive ascent into civilization had a different starting basis? That basis effected their entire epoch. Our scientific truths might not match theirs not wrong just different.
Reaching clear off the scale they might have achieved greater things than we can imagine. Our problem is not having any solid linkage into their worldview. Like what if their Einstein discovered E=MC2 and found a method for FTL or time travel.

Off topic:
While talking with a friend of mine at work he visited a site where he supposed to have access to a large telescope. He asked for a view of the moon into a disputed area. The astronomer adamantly refused to point the telescope at his suggested target. It's just word of mouth but if our ancestors left something behind up there it could be in pristine shape.

nw15062
The Khufu sarcophagus has been painted in the last 200 years

You've been misled by nonfactual claims there.

I hope I do not offend you, but I ask you either contribute constructively or peacefully move on.

Please point out where I was not "peaceful." Will you claim that my request for your evidence is not constructive?

Or is it just that, like so many others here, you prefer not to be questioned, but merely enthusiastically nodded at like a gaggle of bobblehead dolls?

On a side note I find it very interesting that most people here have twice the number of stars then they do post, while you seem to have half, I have to speculate if this is a way to identify ones character

So, you have learned to judge a person's character based on how many people on a conspiracy website are like-minded to that person?

That's good.

An even more interesting side note is how the above compares with your belief in a fantasy you prefer rather than in established facts.

See, just like you completely and utterly ignore what is known in order to maintain your world view, you also completely and utterly ignore that for most of my time here, there was no "star and flag" system.

Obviously, a noob such as yourself couldn't know this. Also obviously, you didn't let this ignorance keep you from commenting on something you have no knowledge of.

See the parallels?

Harte

reply to post by Harte


I am sorry, that you feel you need to shred everything in site without giving anything even a consideration. Would you like proof? Because no matter what evidence I may present to you I have the feeling your mind is made and no data I can bring would change it.

Perception is reality, and yours is locked in, has any claim you ever read brought you proof with out a doubt or simple cite someone else claim, who is reinforced by others?

What is proof other then what one can witness and feel reasonably sure of? even to see something with your own eyes does not make what is seen true.

So how can "I" show "you" any proof, I can reference stuff that mainstream academia supports, but you can find equally contradicting information to support the opposite. Our history despite what you may think is subjective to interpretation. Our perception defines our reality.

Shred me if you please, I am not wrong for sharing my "Opinion" and "belief" you can choose to share your own, but do not think that you can impose your reality over mine, when I can neither see what you have seen nor you can see what I have seen

I am not wrong just because those who write the text books say so, who says they are any more correct then those who manipulated any other text from any other era?

Our ignorance is simply our ability to ignore, I understand what you are saying, I put myself in your shoes, I know what we are taught in school, but I also see inconsistency in what we are taught and the only consistent fact that remains is that eventually the facts are proven wrong.

You are miserable, I get it, your only means to feel good about yourself is to shred others, you see your self as a knight of righteousness, one who will right the wrongs of others knowledge by correctness, and yet my perception of you is of someone who is so blind by the facts they are lead to believe that they can not see any other possible way, that you can not let your guard down for even a second to ponder the "what if".

I have learned something from you here, first that for every dreamer or ponderer of possibilities there is a person who refuses to even consider for a second that their reality is totally subjective.
Second, that some people feel only good about themselves when they can feel better then another person, like a rush they relentlessly try to demean another to feel superior.
Lastly do not start a thread about a belief even if it mentions that the "belief" or "idea" is just that, with out someone trolling your ideas and beliefs asking for proof of that which can not truly be proven.

So long story short, you win I have no real evidence, I never claimed I had any evidence to provide, I claimed I felt enough things that I have seen provides me with enough courage to present my belief and yet I did not word it as such "My fault", I deserve to be flogged at the post by your words, demeaned and stomped on like a inferior human who by no means could ever be your equal cause you are so great so magnificent I am unworthy of your comments.

I never wanted bobble heads agreeing with me, I wanted people who could also say "hey what if" and bring other possible ideas, conceptual projections of how it could be possible as that would be the only way to find evidence for such a thing is to theorize what would be the case and then search it out. But I guess that is not how science works right, we do not postulate an idea, create a potential scenario and identify if the theory is sound, we only "accept rhetoric" and "relay rhetoric" there is no room in today's society for "Creative thinking", Know what you are told, think inside the box, and who needs thought police when you can simply let the people enforce the idea for you and ostracize any free thinkers.

So you are right and "Screw You!" for being so right, you are the shining example of this world, the blazing star of greatness, who can be no wrong, and stand above everyone else lording over their ideas. Great job! You are my brother so I am proud of you for being so great, I hope life treats you well, I have learned not to be so much a person like you, and found that many of my presumptions have been wrong, and in the end I was merely being a "Jack Ass" but that is the regret I have lived with to this age, and that is the regret you too will have to come to terms with.

Sincerely your humble ATS's and fellow "Human Being".

datasdream
Interesting theory.
My comments are pure supposition with very little facts to back me up. Your presentation has a better reach than my observations.
The far past had knowledge beyond our reach or outside of our world view. Could it be that each successive ascent into civilization had a different starting basis? That basis effected their entire epoch. Our scientific truths might not match theirs not wrong just different.
Reaching clear off the scale they might have achieved greater things than we can imagine. Our problem is not having any solid linkage into their worldview. Like what if their Einstein discovered E=MC2 and found a method for FTL or time travel.

Off topic:
While talking with a friend of mine at work he visited a site where he supposed to have access to a large telescope. He asked for a view of the moon into a disputed area. The astronomer adamantly refused to point the telescope at his suggested target. It's just word of mouth but if our ancestors left something behind up there it could be in pristine shape.

Scarier then that what if the location was to show that "A" we have a facility up there, or "B" the Apollo landing sites to find nothing there at all.

reply to post by nw15062

His request was to see an area that has some unusual surface features. Where some pictures shows something jutting out of the surface to a large height.
By my view the Apollo landing seems to be true. Keeping a lid on that large a conspiracy would seem next to impossible. Of course we have seen the impossible occur a few times so it pays to keep an open mind. Treat all information with a healthy case of skepticism. Just like listening to a political speech most times they present just enough truth with fibs to keep you confused.

reply to post by datasdream


I guess it's that possible pillar like structure seen in some old NASA photos. I agree with you though never discount anything but do not bet the farm on anything either.

You should see my telescope project, it is a 3d printable dobsonian open frame.

Hexa-Scope

nw15062
reply to post by Harte

 

I am sorry, that you feel you need to shred everything in site without giving anything even a consideration. Would you like proof? Because no matter what evidence I may present to you I have the feeling your mind is made and no data I can bring would change it.

Exactly where did I ask for "proof?"

I asked for the evidence that causes you to believe these things. After all, it was you that claimed such evidence exists.

but do not think that you can impose your reality over mine, when I can neither see what you have seen nor you can see what I have seen.

The difference here is, I don't refuse to see what you've seen. It is you that is refusing to show it to me with a straw man argument about "proof" - a concept with which, as a mathematics teacher, I am quite well acquainted and therefore know better than to ask for.

I am not wrong just because those who write the text books say so, who says they are any more correct then those who manipulated any other text from any other era?

I am not wrong either for asking for the evidence you claim exists.

Other than actual physical evidence which you likely are unaware of (for example, your claim about the age of the GP glyphs,) you are not wrong to express your opinion. I simply wonder how you arrived at it.

Our ignorance is simply our ability to ignore, I understand what you are saying, I put myself in your shoes, I know what we are taught in school, but I also see inconsistency in what we are taught and the only consistent fact that remains is that eventually the facts are proven wrong.

I was taught nothing about this in schools, and I very much doubt that you were either.

You are miserable, I get it, your only means to feel good about yourself is to shred others, you see your self as a knight of righteousness, one who will right the wrongs of others knowledge by correctness, and yet my perception of you is of someone who is so blind by the facts they are lead to believe that they can not see any other possible way, that you can not let your guard down for even a second to ponder the "what if".

How is it that you are able to imagine that I have not "pondered the what if?"

Are you thinking that someone forced what I know on me?

I have learned something from you here, first that for every dreamer or ponderer of possibilities there is a person who refuses to even consider for a second that their reality is totally subjective.
Second, that some people feel only good about themselves when they can feel better then another person, like a rush they relentlessly try to demean another to feel superior.
Lastly do not start a thread about a belief even if it mentions that the "belief" or "idea" is just that, with out someone trolling your ideas and beliefs asking for proof of that which can not truly be proven.

If you're finished with the ad hominems, can you please now provide at least a little of the "evidence" you claim exists for your position? Or, are you simply going on a "feeling" you have - which you should have stated from the outset (if that's it.)

So long story short, you win I have no real evidence, I never claimed I had any evidence to provide,

No?

nw15062

Intro
I have come to a deep and most profound belief, and yet inside I have always felt this way as far back as I can remember. I feel that there is enough evidence to rule this opinion to be possible and worth sharing here on ATS.

I claimed I felt enough things that I have seen provides me with enough courage to present my belief and yet I did not word it as such "My fault", I deserve to be flogged at the post by your words, demeaned and stomped on like a inferior human who by no means could ever be your equal cause you are so great so magnificent I am unworthy of your comments.

If you think my simple and curious words are "flogging," then I would predict that you could have a rough time here at ATS.

Remember, I've not flamed you, though your first response to my mere questioning was an assault on my character, albeit a weak and baseless one.

So you are right and "Screw You!" for being so right, you are the shining example of this world, the blazing star of greatness, who can be no wrong, and stand above everyone else lording over their ideas. Great job! You are my brother so I am proud of you for being so great, I hope life treats you well, I have learned not to be so much a person like you, and found that many of my presumptions have been wrong, and in the end I was merely being a "Jack Ass" but that is the regret I have lived with to this age, and that is the regret you too will have to come to terms with.

I see.

Now tell me, what have I stated here that would indicate that I know anything at all about the matter other than to straighten out your timeline and point out you'd been had by a fraudulent claim about the ocher paint in the GP?

Would you have preferred not to know these two things? If so, why?

Harte

reply to post by Harte


Bah, not worth my time.

If you make a statement or a claim, be prepared to prove it.
if not, don't or label it as fiction or speculation.

Having read the queries Harte put to you, I find them reasonable.
Having known Harte on this forum and another forum, for years, I know that he is outright frank and calls a spade a spade,and some times he is a condescending pain in the ass, but that's about it....the queries he made are outright reasonable.

If you didn't know the answers or couldn't answer them, you could as well, written so.

But, as human nature goes, when put into a corner, its a natural tendency to fight back.

While in the corner, you could have responded that you cant answer the queries or provide justification to the claims you made. simple.

Instead you resort to ad hominem attacks, which will look bad on you only.