'Giants' appearing in the west...

Here you go.

The postulation in a nutshell..

According to the professor that's likely when the ruler also started production on the massive army that was installed below ground.

As life-size works didn't exist in China prior to the emperor's collection, outside influence is suspected.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

Interesting take on this Wrabbit. I have a question.

First. the most recent is having just tested through a history course this Fall which had a heavy focus on both the Chinese and Greek cultures of this time period, among others. The only resemblance I see between Greek art of the time and the Warriors is they're both bipedal humanoid figures in relief. The similarity ends there, I believe.

I can see what you're saying, but does "inspire" of necessity mean copy or mimic? What I'm getting at is, maybe the Chinese were inspired by the Greeks, but did it their way, instead of trying to imitate anything but the idea itself. Hence, the uniqueness of their work.

Just a question. Your the educated one here. I'm just thinking out loud.

reply to post by Klassified


I wouldn't say I'm the educated one.. I'm fresh from a course so it's all still in immediate memory, is about what I can say for it.

I suppose inspired is possible.. What bugs me though, is simply this. China had a number of major inventions a very long time before Europe knew they existed. Gun Powder was only one thing China came up with and wasn't at all interested in sharing or spreading to anyone but themselves. They were, in ways, an extremely closed society ...In ways, anyway.

So, I read through the story and I could not, for the life of me, find a connection where this started and someone said "uhhh.. hey..guys? These might be related!". It honestly read more like a Westerner looking at Chinese culture and saying, "Okay, how did Western methods and outcomes get to China?". Hmm... It's actually possible they came up with it all on their own, is my thought.

The 8,000 of them is also staggering..and what many accounts don't detail is that it isn't JUST 8,000 Warriors standing at attention like an endless parade ground. It was a full battle force of the time, with versions of their various weapons and platforms as well, such as they had them.

So thats really why I stepped back a bit. I just didn't see the Ah-Ha connection...even at the end and looking back...for a natural connection, let alone assuming one direction vs. the other.

reply to post by SLAYER69


Very cool. I wonder why the Chinese government doesn't allow too much conflicting historical evidence out? Have you done a thread about the Chinese pyramids? Only one visa was ever given to study these and now they are literally covering them with dirt and planting tress on them. I think that topic should be slayed.

reply to post by SLAYER69


China's history from about 500 (or so) years ago to it's first emperor, is often found to be less than revealing. One example? The 'Forbidden City' was just wayyy off limits even during periods of the 20th century.

And it's not just China. Japan is cloaked in mystique as well, with an emperor-ship that was regarded as part deity up until the end of WW2. In fact, in the 19th century, the US basically had to force this nation to open just a few doors to the west. In retrospect, one might disagree with the tactic but it is history and there is a lesson.

Back to China, there is also the story of a great admiral and a great fleet that sallied forth across the Indian and Pacific Oceans to spread China's influence and culture. Moreover, many relics found today in certain areas of South America simply reek of Oriental cultural connection.

Ancient Greece was a very important influence upon the world. That China was in contact with them at the time, is by no means out of the question. It is, in all point of fact, just one more statement of how much we don't know about how we got here today.

reply to post by Toolman18


Ever been to the Korean Veterans War memorial in D.C. ? walked amongst those 19 stainless steel statues created by a WWII vet?

History is replete with examples of people having to fight "giants".
Nearly every culture in the world has such stories.
I tend to believe the interpretation other than actual large sized humans it was an excuse to tell why so and so failed to explore an area further or lost a battle to the enemy.
"How could we fight them? They were 20 feet tall!"
Failure in battle or on royal explorations was often an excuse for the death penalty.
I'd be making up stories too.

reply to post by Klassified


Don't sell yourself short Klassified.
Some of the most intelligent posts I've seen here are by you.
You just keep on being as "uneducated" as you like.
(sorry for the OT Slayer)

IkNOwSTuff
Ignorance denied!!!!

I had no idea the 1st Chinese emperor was a contemporary of Alexander, I thought the Emp was much earlier. Considering the swath Alex cut across that part of the world its not surprising the Emperor emulated some of the Hellenistic culture.

I was a bit skeptical when I saw the title as Greece to China is a fair distance, especially back then but considering Greek culture was basically on their doorstep it does make sense and it explains the break with the norm.
It would be hard to believe in a taboo when a culture that ignores it is kicking the ass of everyone around you.

Interesting stuff as always Slayer
S&F

The Chinese Shuking (Cannon of History) is the most historically accurate list of rulers available.

It begins with the rule of Yao (he lived in a time where the global flood has just finished) in Hebrew Yao is Yagog.

"The deluge assailed the heavens, and in its vast expanse encompassed the mountains, and overtopped the hills ..." (Canon of Yao).

His rule began in a foreign land (Babel). During the rule of Yao, Shun came to power (the usurper). Shun is the son of the "Queen of Heaven" (Semiremis) and Chusou (Cush), he was very attractive and powerful and subdued nations. In Hebrew Shun is Nimrod. In the bamboo annals of ancient China it makes it clear Shun was a foreign black skinned man (he was not Chinese). After the fall of the Tower of Babel, Nimrod (called Shun in Chinese) ruled over the descendants of Yao (Yagog) for 50 years.

The Chinese Cannon of History begins with Nimrod's rule (Shun) as he was the first ruler after the "confounding of languages" at Babel (this is why he is called Shun in Chinese and Nimrod in Hebrew). After Shun is killed, and the descendants of Yagog (Yao) migrate to the modern location of China, the Chinese gained their independence from Western rule and established their first dynasty in 2204 BCE under Yu (Hsia Dynasty).

Qin Shi Huangdi called himself the "first ruler of China", because he subdued all opposing regional kings to unify the land of China under a sole emperor for the first time. He is the first emperor of unified China, but he is not the first ruling emperor of the Chinese people. He was a contemporary of Alexander, and as Greece ruled the world at the time, their culture was spread to all corners including China during his reign.

Exceptional find OP!

God Bless,

SLAYER69
reply to post by Thorneblood

 

True unless the statues were cast by the Greeks close to Ancient China's territory and placed in place as a warning? Who knows, I think there maybe something to this.

Well making "The records do not say how this appearance happened, who brought them there or who exactly the statues depicted; they do reveal the statues were larger than life, rising about 38 feet (11.55 meters) high, with feet that were 4.5 feet long (1.38 m)." cast statues this big would take a long long time! I am a sculptor, I can't even imagine! Moving them...HOW?

The only resemblance between the sculptures of the Greek and China was the life size. The Chinese sculptures look like slip (liquefied clay) poured in layers over a subject as a mold (hope not).

reply to post by SLAYER69


Yea, I could see that too. It's not like there was much distributed through the Chinese empire. The emperor saw something he liked, copied it and made a ton more of them then didn't pass let the techniques pass down (or rather the sculptors were maybe ashamed of this skill acquired from foreign influence and just didn't teach their apprentices). Certainly the Han dynasty didn't want anything to do with this type of art.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


But the question remains, if the sculptors learned this craft to create these 800 statues, why didn't they pass their techniques down to their apprentices? Why isn't this art widespread throughout ancient China throughout the various dynasties? It just seems odd that these sculptors would go through such painstaking lessons to learn a sculpting technique, only to NOT preserve it for future generations to utilize.

It just seems to make more sense that it was learned from outside the empire and was considered such an embarrassment, that after the first emperor died, they sealed the technique with the 8000 statues and just left it at that.

DonVoigt
Wouldn't it be great if we could know the true history of mankind, without the whole, history is written by the winners thing. I read in the thread that Chinese historians may very well know about this, but hid this. I could see that hiding this would be important to China's cultural heritage, but the reality is that truth and fact in learning history is more important to mankind as a whole than maintaining cultural heritage, even when it is negative history, like slavery. I think maintaining truth and fact in historical data would be a very important factor in the wellness of mankind, as a whole, rather than omitting the embarrassing and shameful parts.

I wonder how many of our questions could be answered if all the hidden libraries were to be set free. The knowledge from all the rich peoples personal collections to the vatican. Look at the paintings found from Hitler maybe there are libraries also still hidden, as he certainly was a collector.

Thorneblood
Lintao was part of the Silk Road, would it really make sense to transport 12 giant statues over 4000 miles on what i can only assume is rather #ty terrain? India I could see, but not Greece. I wish the statues built before the palace had survived in some form.

edit on 13-12-2013 by Thorneblood because: (no reason given)

That doesn't seem a very logical outcome, dragging massive statues across the Silk Road seems an even more monumental task than Stonehenge or anything at the Giza Plateau. However, i think it would be a more likely explanation for "Statues appearing in the west" that Chinese emissaries or tradesmen were traveling west to establish new trading partners and as they arrived in Greece, they saw these massive constructs and when they returned home the version was slightly altered in retelling or translation to the statues appearing suddenly as opposed to when arriving in Athens there were huge statues monuments and buildings. To me that would seem a more likely explanation as to the origin of the template for the terra cotta warriors.

reply to post by peter vlar


Wait so your theory is that a bunch of Chinese emissaries went to Athens or somewhere in Greece, witnessed some statues, then went back to China, told the emperor about them, who in turn commissioned his sculptors to make 8000 statues using techniques unheard of during that time and the only thing the sculptors had to go on to learn these techniques were the memories of the emissaries? Call me crazy, but trying to remember details of some art piece (especially as a non-artist) months after seeing it so that your own artists can duplicate the techniques would require some fantastical memory.

Krazysh0t
reply to post by peter vlar

 

Wait so your theory is that a bunch of Chinese emissaries went to Athens or somewhere in Greece, witnessed some statues, then went back to China, told the emperor about them, who in turn commissioned his sculptors to make 8000 statues using techniques unheard of during that time and the only thing the sculptors had to go on to learn these techniques were the memories of the emissaries? Call me crazy, but trying to remember details of some art piece (especially as a non-artist) months after seeing it so that your own artists can duplicate the techniques would require some fantastical memory.

edit on 13-12-2013 by Krazysh0t because: (no reason given)

I won't call you crazy, Krazy, but that's essentially the gist of my hypothesis. It would explain differences in material, style and scale. What we can say with a degree of certainty is that there was contact between China and Greece. He prolonged it was as well as where the contact took place is still unknown. I my opinion it is more likely that either traders or envoy's or a trading mission that included envoy's had visited either Greece or a Helenistic outpost where they saw these large public works. It's rather doubtful that the Helenistic Greeks or even earlier Greeks would have invested the time money and manpower involved in large scale construction if it was not for a colony/settlement/outpost where the Greeks intended to have a continued presence. Additionally, it is also possible that if the Chinese encountered sculpture of the scale reported that we aren't talking about an isolated incursion but continued contact whereby the Emperor could have sent artisans to see the sculptures themselves. While the scale of the Terra Cotta warriors is nowhere near the scope of the 43 ft tall statue of Zeus at Olympia or the later Colossus of Rhodes, they do have some similarities to Hellenistic bronze sculptures in regard to size and anatomical accuracy. Stylistic Similarities however aren't necessarily indicative of utilizing the same techniques to achieve the end result. Techniques for working bronze or marble would be rather different than working with clay. Anyway, the readers digest version is I found it a more plausible scenario than the Greeks engaging in massive public works projects in an area they had no claim to or had no plans of establishing a continued presence. Hope that clarifies. It's doesn't mean I'm correct by any measure, simply a plausible hypothesis that made more sense to me based on what I know. As always I remain open minded to other explanations, particularly those with evidentiary support.

I think that there was a great deal more contact between ancient cultures than we are lead to believe by the history we are taught.Many of the ancient cultures were more than capable of traveling great distances.Just because we have no records of such trips doesn't necessarily mean that they didn't happen.

Since the Macidonians were as far into Asia as India,Why could they not have gone to China? At least some of them certianly could have.Terra cotta is not really that complicated. I think that if the Chinese had seen an example of this craft, that they were more than capable of recreating the process to make the warriors.All they would need was a little inspiration.

reply to post by lonegurkha


I agree that the likelihood of continued contact between cultures is much higher than archaeological evidence currently indicates. If the Macedonians were in India and Bactria(modern Afghanistan) it's not a huge leap to think that some may have ventured into central and east Asia. Additionally, inspiration as opposed to outright copying is the more likely scenario. In fact, its how the Greeks developed their sculpture technique that led them from the unofficially recognized period of "geometric" sculpture to the archaic period which was inspired by Egyptian and other Eastern styles of sculpture. The early examples of Greek Archaic sculpture are very reminiscent of earlier Egyptian sculptures but more stylized and precise which inevitably led them to the more well known "classical" period which most are familiar with. It is interesting though how after the Han dynasty came to power life sized sculpture fell out of favor and reverted to the older style of small pieces.

reply to post by Krazysh0t


Could it have gone the other way? Maybe he hired a group from elsewhere to do the work. He wanted something real special for his afterlife so if price was no object...
The individuals used as models wouldn't have the expertise to do their own face and body.

I would also agree that for the statues to stand in for the soldiers for his afterlife killing each one along the way would sound like a common practice to for a ruler with delusions of immortality.

just kicking the idea around.

reply to post by Krazysh0t

It just seems to make more sense that it was learned from outside the empire and was considered such an embarrassment, that after the first emperor died, they sealed the technique with the 8000 statues and just left it at that.

Embarrassment... Hmmm.... Now, that I hadn't even considered, but it seems an obvious possibility now.

I think it's easy to forget in the modern world of easy mass production, that 8,000 is so very many. This had to be a real significant effort to really garner attention at the time. I wonder if the Chinese, being more logical during some periods of history than others, looked at it after the object of all this died and did just what you suggest. Shook their heads and said 'Nope... This is never happening again'.

The other side is the supernatural one and what my logical side refuses to even articulate. Even here. Yet...that gut feeling relating to these is impossible to ignore too. Something just... not right about these. Just my opinion and darned if I can nail down better, why.