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Court in India criminalizes homosexuality

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posted on Dec, 16 2013 @ 08:59 AM
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reply to post by Lucid Lunacy
 


First of all I appreciate you took the effort to write such a long and thoughtful post.

I am a student of Veda; and Veda is not a religion but a storehouse of eternal knowledge. I do not follow any recognized religion. So do not think that my views are colored by religion.

I can prove to you God exists; and that God controls your life. However I am constrained by the format of this particular website, and such discussion needs direct contact.

Not only God exists, but God has made specific laws for humans. Just like a government has laws, and if you do not follow, you get punished, same is with God. If human laws are contradictory to God's laws, such human laws invariably lead to sins and punishment by God.

Gay behavior is contrary to God's laws. I am absolutely clear on this aspect that sex is between a man and a woman, and for the purpose of having children. The laws should be there for families that have a father and a mother, who are legally wed, and produce children and raise them within the constraints of a family. Please note that family is more than parents - there are grand-parents and close relatives who are very much part of family and contribute to the raising of children.

India is a very different country from yours. We Indians do not wish to follow your example. We firmly believe that your society is suffering from moral degradation which is taking you towards destruction.




posted on Dec, 16 2013 @ 11:32 AM
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GargIndia
reply to post by Lucid Lunacy
 



India is a very different country from yours. We Indians do not wish to follow your example. We firmly believe that your society is suffering from moral degradation which is taking you towards destruction.



The above is the issue. India has 2.5m gays out of 1bil people. Democracy and freedom is allowing the culture to govern itself not when you force the other 99% of people to bow to the demands of 1 percent. Look at America a country which is governed by 1% and ask yourself if you want to be more like the U.S.



posted on Dec, 16 2013 @ 12:06 PM
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reply to post by GargIndia
 

Dear GargIndia,

I accept your basic premise which is, as I understand it, that India is a sovereign country with it's own culture, history, and goals.

Many ATSers have accused the West of imperialism. Since it's fairly obvious that the West has no desire to take physical control of other lands, new definitions for imperialism have had to be created. One of those definitions is the imposition of culture and beliefs on another country or people. Never mind the fact that you can't force anyone to accept a belief, the new definition is still being used.

I can see the imposition of a code of conduct on an unwilling country only in the most extreme situations. If the government were to decide to close the borders, prevent emigration, and kill off large numbers of innocent people, forceful intervention might be required.

In this case, however, the spiritual goals of the country mitigate against homosexual sex, the law condemning it is old, established, and well understood. People can avoid any risk of punishment by leaving, or by not having illegal sexual relations.

I find it worrisome that Americans are upset by India's position. It wasn't that long ago when such behavior was a crime in the US as well. Why do Americans feel such an urge to get the rest of the world to follow suit? Is it because they question whether they made the correct choice, and are looking for other countries to agree with them?

In any event, it seems perfectly all right in my view, to question whether India's law should exist, but wrong to demand that it must be revoked, or claim that it is a gross human rights violation.

Well, Charles, what about stoning adulteresses in Islamic countries? Excellent question, me, thanks for asking it. That's a tough case for me to deal with, but let me point out some differences. As I understand it, the charge of adultery, and the needed proof to defend against it, is heavily tilted towards the prosecution. I doubt if anything resembling a fair trial can be held. If I recall, punishment can also be enforced upon a woman who is spotted in public without a chaperone. That seems to be a more flagrant violation of a human right than criminalizing a particular type of sexual activity.

It also seems that the stoning in Islam is only one part of a system which has been widely condemned for violating basic rights in a number of areas. I don't know that India has such a pervasive system.

I just had a thought. How do we know that the US is right and India is wrong? Certainly, gay marriage doesn't enjoy overwhelming support in the US, despite decades of advertising, lobbying, media influence, etc.

With respect,
Charles1952



posted on Dec, 16 2013 @ 07:32 PM
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reply to post by charles1952
 


India is a free country and a democracy.

India is an open country.

You will not be followed by secret services if you visit India. There will be no minders either.

The laws and system of this country has been adopted after much debate.

While there may be corruption (non-adherence to laws), laws of India are generally well crafted.

I would request people of other nationalities to respect the intelligence of Indian people, and not make wild accusations.

The family units in USA are tearing apart due to both financial and cultural issues in USA. The family is the reason India has survived against all odds. I travel through length and breadth of India and I go to villages and preach to ordinary people and I know how India works.



posted on Dec, 17 2013 @ 05:08 PM
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reply to post by GargIndia
 



I can prove to you God exists

Not only God exists, but God has made specific laws for humans.


So it all comes down to this.

Fair enough.

However, I have heard that same line from countless religious people. Religious people with fundamentally different beliefs. They can't all be true, yet all claiming the same without proof (despite saying they have it).

Sorry that's not good enough. Here I will show you why:

There exists a god named Seth. He strongly supports LGBT equality. I know this god is real. I have proof. I have a direct connection to this divinity. Seth made specific laws for humans to follow… not discriminating on the basis of sexual orientation is one of them.

Let's say you're right and your Vedic depiction of a Creator and its Laws are truth. That doesn't negate my response to your claim from earlier. You stated a father and mother is required for material and emotional health. That's clearly not true. That's easily demonstrably false. I think there is room even within your beliefs to allow for more LGBT equality.
edit on 17-12-2013 by Lucid Lunacy because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 17 2013 @ 05:27 PM
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reply to post by GargIndia
 



India is a very different country from yours. We Indians do not wish to follow your example. We firmly believe that your society is suffering from moral degradation which is taking you towards destruction.


So don't base this particular issue on a comparison to evil America. There are plenty of other real world examples in other countries that support gay rights. In fact, even more so than America.

Here is a thread I made a while back. I list the most gay friendly countries in the World:

Acceptance Of Homosexuality Leads To Extinction


edit on 17-12-2013 by Lucid Lunacy because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 17 2013 @ 08:00 PM
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reply to post by Lucid Lunacy
 


There is no 'evil America'.

What you call sexual freedom has happened before many times in different countries and happens today as well. This is the reason we have a world governance structure based on violence rather than moral authority.

I am very clear based on Veda and other Indian scriptures that any sex other than a union of man and woman for the desire of having a child is unnatural and has negative consequences.

I denounce oral and anal sex between man and woman in addition to gays.

Even normal sex between man and woman has negative consequences if it is for pleasure.

Vedic people place a very high emphasis on 'brahmcharya', that is, not engaging in sexual thoughts and sexual activity except for the purpose of having children.



posted on Dec, 17 2013 @ 08:09 PM
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reply to post by Lucid Lunacy
 


Your quote - "There is a god called Seth that supports LGBT".

Humans have fabricated a lot of gods from their imagination. So that is no surprise.

The real God is hidden and is very hard to know. He created this Universe and living being and sustains it; but is still hidden and cannot be seen by humans.

You have an image of a 'god' in human terms and human image. This is a tribal thought.

There are certain qualities of people who have advanced in spirituality. If you know the real god, you would have those qualities. One of those is the ability to heal other people of sickness. Second is being kind to all animals and people too. No spiritual person can ever eat meat or kill an animal for food or pleasure.



posted on Dec, 17 2013 @ 08:26 PM
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reply to post by GargIndia
 



There is no 'evil America'.

I agree. What I don't agree with is that we are on a path towards absolute destruction as you say. Certainly not due to increasingly becoming more accepting of LGBT.


What you call sexual freedom

I didn't call it that. Focusing on the sexual aspect is undervaluing the gravity of the situation, and showing a lack of understanding of sexual orientation itself. It's not about sex itself, it's about everything that constitutes an orientation. Understanding the lack of choice. What I call it is equality. Period. Giving them equal opportunity towards the 'pursuit of happiness and liberty' and all that jazz. There is many other ways LGBT are discriminated against in addition to forbidding them from sex. I see no reason they shouldn't be granted the freedom to be who they are, express who they are, if there is no victim involved. In fact you don't seem to be presenting any reason other than god apparently said no.


has happened before many times in different countries and happens today as well.

I know. That was my point. There are plenty of examples of it working. Of families being raised successfully by gay couples (and single parents), and receiving the 'emotional and material' they need. You can't get around this truth.


This is the reason we have a world governance structure based on violence rather than moral authority.

Paraphrase not sure I followed that.


I am very clear based on Veda and other Indian scriptures that any sex other than a union of man and woman for the desire of having a child is unnatural and has negative consequences.

That's fine but it's counter to reality. As I said, plenty of examples of people haven been raised by gay couples that turned out as okay as the rest of us. Your Vedic beliefs don't change that fact.


Vedic people place a very high emphasis on 'brahmcharya', that is, not engaging in sexual thoughts and sexual activity except for the purpose of having children.

I think I'll bow out of this part of the discussion. I just won't support the idea any society is somehow above change simply because they have an established culture. Additionally, the idea morality and ethics would be based on scriptures without strong evidence to substantiate them. So I understand your position. You understand mine on this particular part. Not much more to be said there.



posted on Dec, 17 2013 @ 08:39 PM
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reply to post by GargIndia
 



Humans have fabricated a lot of gods from their imagination.

I couldn't agree more.


You have an image of a 'god' in human terms and human image.

As does every religion.


There are certain qualities of people who have advanced in spirituality. If you know the real god, you would have those qualities. One of those is the ability to heal other people of sickness. Second is being kind to all animals and people too. No spiritual person can ever eat meat or kill an animal for food or pleasure.

Well I know a bit of medicine having been raised by two doctors. I love animals. I don't hunt. I somewhat of an animal activist and I'm a vegetarian. If I might be so bold I think I'm a fairly compassionate person. I guess I meet those qualities. So acknowledge my spiritual strength and heed my words


A finite human mind couldn't possibly know the thoughts of an infinite being. Therefore religious gods, including yours, is as you said in 'human terms'.



posted on Dec, 17 2013 @ 10:04 PM
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reply to post by Lucid Lunacy
 


I have no problem of two ladies living together (but as sisters) and two men living together (but as brothers).

The problem is sexual relations between them.

I am not a 'traditional' person. I have made huge effort and great amount of study to reach where I am today. Whatever I say is said very carefully and after weighing every word.

The problems afflicting this world are much more than LGBT. However you must understand that many Saints have tried to reform people, and told them the truth. Many things saints tell are difficult for humans, as sacrifice is required. However restraint and sacrifice are must for humans to evolve spiritually.

You must realize that you are special. You are not an animal. God has given you special powers which get activated when you follow God's laws.

Veda is God's laws. Veda is instructions for humans how to live life. A human can choose to ignore Veda and craft own laws, but that will be a life of sins.

Each soul chooses a course for itself, and is subject to result of its actions.

Human society structured according to Veda is harmonious, peaceful, and prosperous.

I aggrieve as 90% of humanity is suffering today. This is not what God intended for humans.


edit on 17-12-2013 by GargIndia because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 18 2013 @ 12:19 AM
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reply to post by GargIndia
 


i respect your beliefs, but i will not get punished by any God or Goddess for being Gay, and as entitled to your freedom of belief and opinion as you are that cannot control the lives of others "Religion" or lack of "Religion" cannot control or create laws that limit the freedom of others



posted on Dec, 18 2013 @ 12:33 AM
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reply to post by GargIndia
 



Veda is God's laws. Veda is instructions for humans how to live life.

Human society structured according to Veda is harmonious, peaceful, and prosperous.

I'm sorry friend. I can't relate to this. It's all based on a faith I do not share. Wish we could discuss these ideas outside of it.
edit on 18-12-2013 by Lucid Lunacy because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 18 2013 @ 12:50 AM
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reply to post by Darth_Prime
 

Dear Darth_Prime,

You know I'm Mr. Confusion. The down side is that I get confused a lot, the upside is that I think I'm pretty fair at spotting it.


i respect your beliefs, but i will not get punished by any God or Goddess for being Gay,
I know the Catholic Church doesn't say anyone is condemned for being gay. It is not a moral "right or wrong" at all. I can't speak for other Christian groups, but I would hope they would agree. Now, being involved in homosexual acts is another question entirely.

My confusion comes from people who seem to blur the distinction between the two. As an example, a celibate homosexual or heterosexual may describe themselves as gay or straight, but the fact remains that neither engages in sexual activity. So, when you use "gay," I am not clear in which sense you mean it, the inclination or the act.


and as entitled to your freedom of belief and opinion as you are
Legally, you're quite right, anyone can hold any opinion, but an opinion is valued based upon how close to the truth it is.


"Religion" or lack of "Religion" cannot control or create laws that limit the freedom of others
To a large extent Catholicism, at least, doesn't create many new laws which have to be believed. That's not their job and it happens rarely.

What the Church does do is preserve and pass on the truths it has been given. It is often very comforting to live our lives ignoring or rejecting those truths, (I'm sorry to say that I have done that in my life) but it doesn't change the fact that they are truths, and we ignore or reject them at risk of our eternal peril.

With respect,
Charles1952



posted on Dec, 18 2013 @ 12:59 AM
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reply to post by charles1952
 


Regardless if we agree or disagree you are respectful to me and i do appreciate that.

We can not select if we are born Gay, Straight, Bisexual or Transgendered. if you believe that it is immoral to have sex with someone you are attracted to that is your belief and your choice to remain celibate. but that should not be how we are judged outside of that "Belief" because as i'm sure we can all agree on Religion cannot control those who don't believe in it. and as such it cannot create laws by which people are controlled. so even if homosexuality is "immoral" by whatever goddess or god you believe in, legally it shouldn't be criminalized based on religious laws or views



posted on Dec, 18 2013 @ 01:43 AM
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reply to post by charles1952
 



My confusion comes from people who seem to blur the distinction between the two

As an example, a celibate homosexual or heterosexual may describe themselves as gay or straight, but the fact remains that neither engages in sexual activity. So, when you use "gay," I am not clear in which sense you mean it, the inclination or the act.


Sexual orientation is defined as the underlying attraction. Orientation is not = sex. So a gay person could be celibate his/her entire life and still be gay. Since that person would have that attraction regardless of 'acting it out'. This is how it's understood for all orientations, and is considered to be little to zero choice.

Think in terms of heterosexuality if it's easier to imagine. Let's say high school times. Plenty of virgins who very much want to have sex and understand what gender they want it to be with. Would you say that pimple faced kid drooling over the girl that sits next to him in Algebra isn't a heterosexual because he hasn't had sex? His attraction is there and working in overdrive. It's his attraction that makes him heterosexual.

Focusing on sex itself is erroneous. It undermines the whole issue, by not appreciating the full scope of sexual orientation. Gay people don't just want to have gay sex. They want the same things heterosexuals do. Companionship, romance, commitment, love. The freedom to have an intimate relationship. Sex, just like in heterosexual relationships, is merely a component of that. It's only one aspect of the drive underlying their orientation. Would it not be undermining heterosexuality if all we attributed to it was sex sex sex?

So this ties into your point about Catholicism. This notion that they aren't 'hating the sinner but the sin'. They don't discriminate against gay people just the act of sex. There is a separation here that just shouldn't be made. An orientation is intrinsic to the very nature of someone. Out of their control (again the underlying attraction). To be against what is at the core of their very being, something they can't just change for you, is not 'hating the sin' but is instead 'hating the sinner' (to borrow the language). It very much is discriminating against gay people themselves and not just 'gay sex'.

I noticed you never replied to my post on page one to you. So I don't expect a reply here, but if you would consider it. Imagine a world where you are allowed to be heterosexual. But you are not allowed to have sex with opposite gender. You couldn't legally express the affection you have towards a woman the way you desire to. Would you truly not feel discriminated against as a person. Would you truly just nod your head and say "Yeah I understand. It's not me it's the sin you oppose." "You don't oppose me as a person, just my wanting to have sex with her". Would your heart and mind be at peace and happiness if that was the society you lived in? Or would you believe it to be a grave social injustice..

Either way. I feel the confusion that stems from many of these conversations is due to the fact so many people, for whatever reason, don't extend the same understanding of their orientation to the other orientations. It's the same drive. Same mechanics. Only difference is the genders the attraction is towards.
edit on 18-12-2013 by Lucid Lunacy because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 18 2013 @ 07:56 AM
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Darth_Prime
reply to post by charles1952
 


Regardless if we agree or disagree you are respectful to me and i do appreciate that.

We can not select if we are born Gay, Straight, Bisexual or Transgendered. if you believe that it is immoral to have sex with someone you are attracted to that is your belief and your choice to remain celibate. but that should not be how we are judged outside of that "Belief" because as i'm sure we can all agree on Religion cannot control those who don't believe in it. and as such it cannot create laws by which people are controlled. so even if homosexuality is "immoral" by whatever goddess or god you believe in, legally it shouldn't be criminalized based on religious laws or views


By your definition, a government cannot make any laws at all.

You fail to understand that family law is greatly influenced by religion. The whole concept of marriage and fidelity within marriage is borne out of religion.

Laws of your country are heavily influenced by Christianity, and so are other countries' laws which are influenced by religious rules.

Laws are not arbitrary or subject to whims and fancies of a specific group.

I must make it very clear - the institution of marriage is for bearing and raising children. Continuation of human race is dependent on a healthy environment in which children are raised. The sex is secondary to it.

A gay couple can raise children as well, but a gay can contribute either the egg or the sperm. A donor is required outside marriage. This creates a moral as well as legal issue, as a child is entitled to inheritance from both parents. A child is also entitled to love and affection of both parents.



posted on Dec, 18 2013 @ 08:44 AM
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Lucid Lunacy
reply to post by GargIndia
 



Veda is God's laws. Veda is instructions for humans how to live life.

Human society structured according to Veda is harmonious, peaceful, and prosperous.

I'm sorry friend. I can't relate to this. It's all based on a faith I do not share. Wish we could discuss these ideas outside of it.
edit on 18-12-2013 by Lucid Lunacy because: (no reason given)


I understand. Too few people understand Veda in current times.

However it is important in the context of the Indian society, as Vedic knowledge is the basis of religions as well as social mores in India.



posted on Dec, 18 2013 @ 02:08 PM
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reply to post by Lucid Lunacy
 

Dear Lucid Lunacy,

I am really sorry. Somehow I overlooked or forgot about your comments to me on page 1. It was very rude of me not to respond, and I'm glad you brought it up so I can correct it. If the rather questionable belief that "Better late than never" applies here, I'd like to offer some comments.



I just noticed from the article, that the law against gay sex still stands. There is apparently no law against being homosexual. A distinction without a difference? I don't know.

You don't know?

A distinction with no difference?
I suppose what I could have said was "Do homosexuals see that there is no difference between a law prohibiting certain sexual actions, and the inclination to engage in those acts?" My belief is that, legally, there is a difference. Since the thread is about the legalities of the case, that's what I was focusing on.


The question is. Should we be allowed to act them out? That's what everyone should be asking. Personally I support the freedom for anyone of any orientation to act our their natural inclinations so long as there isn't a victim involved.
Even India asked that question. They have answered it. Thy didn't come up with the same answer you did. Are they required to?

They have determined that homosexual activity harms their society. All of society is the victim. Do you or I understand their culture and history well enough to tell them they are wrong? Of course we don't. We are not dealing with a traditionally accepted human right upon which the world agrees. This is a case of GargIndia telling us, quite properly, to mind our own business.

India has gotten along quite nicely for centuries, thank you very much. Many centuries longer than we have. Shall we invade and force them to change their laws? Perhaps our President should make another speech at the United Nations condemning the people of India for either being too stupid, or too hateful, to pass laws that the US has just gotten around to passing.

But now, having discussed the legal aspects, let me approach the religious aspects in as mild a manner as I can manage.



WHAT, IN THE NAME OF GOD AND HIS HOLY ANGELS, IS SO SACRED ABOUT SEX?????

How can people write sentences like:

Imagine a world were you are allowed to be heterosexual, but not allowed to act it out in an observable way like sex. Seriously.
Do they ever write "Imagine a world were you are allowed to be greedy, but not allowed to act it out in an observable way like theft?" Do their fingers ever type out "Imagine a world were you are allowed to be angry, but not allowed to act it out in an observable way like murder?" Can they stand up and say "Imagine a world were you are allowed to be full of hatred, but not allowed to act it out in an observable way like racial discrimination?"

Of course, I can imagine a world like that. It's the world that He created, for God's sake, and for His glory. It's the world we live in. We have to learn to put controls on our instincts and inclinations. From the legal point of view, India has said that the victim is society as a whole. From God's point of view, the individual not only commits the offense, but is the victim of it.

So I've tried to respond to the direct legal questions raised as well as the moral or religious issues. If you'd care to discuss it further, I'd be happy to.

With respect,
Charles1952



posted on Dec, 18 2013 @ 02:16 PM
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reply to post by GargIndia
 


Laws being dictated by religious thought should not be allowed, that is the supposed separation between church and state,

not everyone follows the same Dogma, for a Government to say "God doesn't believe in homosexuality" so it's outlawed and if you don't believe in the Bible sorry not sorry, that is wrong



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