Is It Okay That Our Food is Tortured Before Butchering?

reply to post by Dr1Akula


As far as we know, everything is made of the same "stuff." In that respect, no matter what you eat, you are eating the same "stuff" as yourself, just in different forms.

GargIndia
There is no question of worrying about pain in plants.

You may have written it off, but not everyone has. Countless items you use are likely products of death, or if you prefer religious terms, "changes in form." As I said above, everything "here" is a product of the same elements and the same processes. Everything has the same building blocks. Everything. Whether you ascribe special meaning to some structures/systems and not others is up to you, but I choose to live a life of respect for *ALL* things, not just those deemed special by my own, or others, hubris.

Thats the whole thing though, this type of thing turns into a religious debate with no one getting anywhere. It brings up a very serious issue that affects ALL of us, but then blatant attempts at dietary and religious conversion follow. We have actual facts and science that could change how animals are treated on the industrial scale, and yet, those are eschewed in favor of zealotry and subjective beliefs.

If those could be kept out of it, and the attempt to convert people to the "truth" minimized, we might actually see some change in this arena.

reply to post by signalfire



Excellent thread.

No it's absolutely not.

My personal beliefs are that meats carry the vibrations of tortured animals just like an audio recording carries it's signals on a disk, flash drive, or tape recording.

I believe one of the reasons many of us do not feel peace in our lives is the fact that we are all empathetic to certain degrees, some more than others.

Many people will discard this claim, but when you consider we are all energy then this claim will take on a whole new of way looking at this premise.

Maybe this is where religious blessings came from, to respect and cleanse the energies.


Peace,

RT

What is considered humane? That they die of old age? Babies are pulled out of women in pieces just because they have changed their mind about having a child. If this is considered humane for humans isn't pretty much any way humane for animals?

reply to post by signalfire

Thank you for bringing our attention to such inhumane practices.
We don't even need to eat meat and our world would improve if we stopped torturing and slaughtering animals.
The amount of these tortured animals that then ends up getting thrown out/wastage is also terrible
Its sad that people are so selfish, they don't even care about it.
Then they say things like "I think I love meat".
How can you LOVE dead flesh ?
Meat is for Zombies.

I used to wonder where the low level Nazis came from; you know, the people who herded the Jews onto 'cattle cars', and the others who guarded them in the concentration camps, and those who knowingly ordered other humans into the showers filled with poisonous gas, and combed the bodies afterwards for jewelry and gold fillings.

Now I know. Banality of evil, and horror, indeed.

In this one thread, I've seen extreme jumping to conclusions combined with stark kneejerk hatred for other lifestyles; (that I was a vegan trying to force-convert all the meat eaters to it) all the way to an incredibly enlightened and enlightening series of posts by truly informed and thoughtful minds.

Not ONCE did a meat eater think to cheer on the vegans as someone who wouldn't be competing with them for flesh-based food, thus lowering the cost of their own choices. Or realize that pointing out the abuses in a factory farming world might just also go far to eliminate the poisons both chemical and biohormonal, in the profit-based food they ingest.

And only a few seem sentient enough to realize that ingesting the flesh of an animal kept in less than optimal conditions might actually have an effect on themselves, also. I have to wonder, though, why so many felt the need to chime in that THEY, for one, only buy locally grown and humanely processed meat; not like all those other people getting their billions of pounds of meat from the grocers. Or that yes, they go hunting, but only shoot 'calm' animals, and quickly at that.

Hopefully, the technology of 3-D printing will over time make the whole issue moot.

reply to post by signalfire


On Highway 400... Between Wichita and Garden City, you will pass seven meat processing plants... beautiful newer buildings nice landscaping models of modern efficiency...

And then going towards the Colorado State line past Garden City you'll pass another four plants... you'll one see one of them from the highway but even with the windows up and the AC going full blast... you will smell the other three and know their there without ever seeing them...

Now I'm not going to agree or disagree with the OP... What I will say going by smell alone... I don't believe they regulate all packing plants the same... more like... the further away you are from a big city the looser those rules get

reply to post by signalfire


So, instead of generalization of entire groups of people due to a belief system, what are some things that you can come up with that would help everyone involved?

If we dont have actual solutions to work towards together, all we will achieve is battle and conflict. That part has nothing to do with dietary choice.

The basis behind my previous suggestion was to decentralize many parts of the food industry with an effort to educate people on how to "grow their own." It would reduce everything from transportation costs to adverse affects in the food. It would also foster a much more sustainable and stable system than what is currently being used. There is a lot of depth to the suggestion, which I will refrain from delving into due to the divisive nature of threads like this (from both sides).

In conjunction with technologies that enable everyone to be on more equal footing, it could be a very feasible solution that solves many problems.

What are some of your solutions?

I have to wonder, though, why so many felt the need to chime in that THEY, for one, only buy locally grown and humanely processed meat; not like all those other people getting their billions of pounds of meat from the grocers. Or that yes, they go hunting, but only shoot 'calm' animals, and quickly at that.

I guess I don't understand why you put that in there.
Aren't we doing exactly what you want, except the fact that we eat meat, which it appears that you like to slam us for.
We are NOT contributing to or supporting the companies that do exactly what your post is about.
So we are still the bad guys?

Look, I fully support anyone that chooses not to eat meat. Good for you, and I wish you a happy and healthy life.
But I'm not going to bash you for it, or try to change your mind. So kindly do the same for me.

Just for the record, one of my deer that I killed was not calm. It had been shot through the lower front leg minutes before I killed it. It tastes just as good as the other one that fell ten feet from the same spot an hour earlier.
I eat grocery store meat also, tastes just fine to me.

reply to post by signalfire


The only thing that prevents me from killing me a cow, butchering it right where it falls, and chowing down on it by firelight while using its skin as shelter, and it's bones as cutlery, is that it is utterly illegal to do so in this country, and I can confirm that my methods would be far too old school to be remotely humane. I am talking jumping out of a tree and putting a sharpened stake through its neck, or digging a spike pit with a bed of kindling and sage in it,and chasing the poor bugger into it, waiting for it to die, and cutting it up into bits, setting fire to the kindling and taking the remains out of the hole in bits, using fire hardened staffs to lift the sizzling bits out.

Since the only legal way for me to get beef, or any other animal meat for that matter (without resorting to hunting licences and official paperwork, which I do not agree with the existence of) is to buy it, that's what I have done, and will do until such a time as there is no government and no society to tell me how I am allowed to go about feeding myself.

No amount of moralising has greater importance than my ability to feed myself and my people, and no one is going to tell me any damned different. Our species would have gotten no where without the single minded determination to do what had to be done to continue to sustain itself, and there is no shame in continuing to ensure that basic minimum standard. No matter whether I get my food out of plastic, our out of skin does not matter a damn to me, but I doubt that my methods would be any more humane than those used by industry, just different.

TrueBrit
reply to post by signalfire

 

and there is no shame in continuing to ensure that basic minimum standard. No matter whether I get my food out of plastic, our out of skin does not matter a damn to me, but I doubt that my methods would be any more humane than those used by industry, just different.

This is exactly the problem. What is the basic minimum standard and who gets to decide what that is? That the animal is dead before you eat it, no matter how long that takes and how it was achieved? We should be able to do much better than that, and gloriously boasting about how little you care about the cruelty involved just makes you look a little unevolved at best.

If we have to kill, then we should be aiming for the highest humane standards possible, and the fastest, most stress-free method. I actually am still shocked that there are people willing to debate this.

reply to post by caitlinfae


Un evolved? Hardly. It is a far better indicator of a lack of mental evolution to continue to anthropomorphise animals to the extent where you place the largest of their concerns above the smallest of those of your own species. Do not get me wrong, I have held a young lamb in my arms and comforted it after it received a broken right front leg after being hit by a 4x4, and I love anything that has more legs than I do, but when it comes down to the nitty gritty, eat or do not, that love is a very distant second to my needs and those of my own species.

Right now, the vast majority of people who do not care about how their food is treated before being eaten, would die unless someone cut the meat, packaged it, and shipped it to their local store. It is not that I do not care, but I care about my ability to afford to eat, and anything, including more careful practices that makes that food more expensive, will make my life more difficult than it has any damned right to be. I will not accept that I ought to go hungry so that a cow, raised from birth to feed the human race, and not living properly wild ANYWHERE in my country, can have a nice comfy death.

caitlinfae
If we have to kill, then we should be aiming for the highest humane standards possible, and the fastest, most stress-free method.

There we go, some common ground!

I am of the mind that the state of our food supplies in many first world nations is playing a part (perhaps large) to many of the health issues that present in the population. Its not just about meat, in this respect, but how we go about food production in general.

It isnt too big of an issue to inject subjective spirituality into the discussion, but this is a topic that we can actually use objective science and explore options together. Regardless of individually chosen dietary choices, this is a topic that really has an impact on everyone.

Can we come up with a food industry that leads to better health, more humane treatment, better stability, better nutrients, reduces extraneous costs, all while creating a larger knowledge base on the subject?

I 100%, absolutely believe so. What are some of your ideas on it?

To be successful, we need to hold it as a common goal. Otherwise, it devolves into inevitable nazi references, judgment of others, and outright conflict. I actually think US food production, specifically, could really use a focused and concerted effort for over-arcing reform. Once we try to convert others dietary choices, however, it will create a black vs white scenario where nothing gets done other than jabs and name calling.

We should really try to avoid that.

reply to post by signalfire


Just to turn up the propane a little bit, add this to the abuse issue. Human Intelligence isn't superior to that of other animals.

Their emotions aren't mentioned but, then, they shouldn't have to be.

I hereby verify I am neither vegan nor vegetarian and enjoy working with leather.

TrueBrit
reply to post by caitlinfae

 

I will not accept that I ought to go hungry so that a cow, raised from birth to feed the human race, and not living properly wild ANYWHERE in my country, can have a nice comfy death.

If you grant the animal, which has given up everything for you and not by choice, a "nice comfy death", then you're still going to eat it, right? Alright, so it will be a little more time consuming to make sure it happens, and probably make the meat more expensive, but nowhere has anyone suggested that you go hungry. Some people, myself included, have suggested that meat makes up too much of the modern diet, but that's perhaps a different debate. If you're looking for nutrition and calories per pound of food, then a vegetarian diet will get you much much further. Again, another debate.

Anyway, if you're going to kill the animal regardless, what's wrong with trying to eliminate it's suffering? And cows are not here just to feed us...they were a species with their own agenda before it occurred to us to eat them. There are such vast numbers of them now because we force them to breed at a totally unnatural rate, to suit the meat market, and nothing else.

It's this unbelievably stubborn lack of compassion that has me so shocked. I've said from my first post here that I'm not naive enough to imagine that the meat industry will ever disappear, so right from the start, I've been trying to create some sort or agreement in how it can be done, but from Intrepid, and now you, there is this intransigence over an acceptable level of compassion, and an overwhelming attitude of entitlement. We do not have the right to kill cruelly when there is an alternative, and we need collectively to realise that we are not all we think ourselves to be if our behaviour results in the seemingly endless torture of our fellow animals.

We are not at the top of the food chain, we just happen to be quite smart and have opposable thumbs. Sadly, our big brains have also given us the means to work out how to cut corners when it comes to making money, resulting in sloppy and torturous slaughter techniques.

reply to post by caitlinfae


There sure as hell IS something wrong with it being more expensive! People are already eating sub par crap that does not do them any favours, without the price of meat inflating further than it already has. I am sure we would all like to live well above the poverty line, but not all of us do, and it is thoughtless of you to make out that food price increases will not have a devastating effect on the ability of people to feed themselves, people who are already at the thin end of the wedge.

When life is wonderful for every human being, perhaps then we should start worrying about the lot of everything else on this planet.

TrueBrit
reply to post by caitlinfae

 

There sure as hell IS something wrong with it being more expensive! People are already eating sub par crap that does not do them any favours, without the price of meat inflating further than it already has. I am sure we would all like to live well above the poverty line, but not all of us do, and it is thoughtless of you to make out that food price increases will not have a devastating effect on the ability of people to feed themselves, people who are already at the thin end of the wedge.

When life is wonderful for every human being, perhaps then we should start worrying about the lot of everything else on this planet.

The very last thing I am is thoughtless. I'm also not wealthy, but I do know how to cook and eat well on a very tight budget that doesn't include meat. It's so wrong of you to assume that I don't know the implications of higher food prices...do you think I'm sitting here dictating my posts to a PA while my oil industry husband earns a fortune offshore? From experience, mine and other people's, I know that if the grocery funds are restricted, then the first thing to limit is meat...it's too expensive per calorie, and a plant based diet will provide everything you need for less money. Note that I said plant based and not vegetarian or vegan...I'm not evangelising about my lifestyle, only discussing your point about food prices.

I also think you have your equation the wrong way round. When things improve for other beings on the planet, our lives will become better.

Anyway...nite nite all...I'm going to watch some Geminids before sleep, I hope.

reply to post by signalfire

I used to wonder where the low level Nazis came from; you know, the people who herded the Jews onto 'cattle cars', and the others who guarded them in the concentration camps, and those who knowingly ordered other humans into the showers filled with poisonous gas, and combed the bodies afterwards for jewelry and gold fillings.

Go figure!

Bringing the Nazi's into a topic based upon your beliefs of what everyone else should eat..................sigh

Maybe you should apply for a job with CNN or MSNBC???

"Progressives believe in Utopia by FORCE"! Your setting a great example of how your beliefs and values are FAR superior than those whom believe differently than you do!

BRAVO! I am glad you believe in FREEDOM! /end sarcasm

reply to post by caitlinfae


First of all, vegetarianism does not work for everyone. Geographical and climatological circumstances require a certain amount of animal protein for anyone living either too far north, too far south, or with unique biochemistry which processes meat and gains better energy and stamina from it, than they do from veg.

Simply speaking, putting livestock ahead of the people I am talking about (which is exactly what prioritising humane treatment over availability and affordability does, whether you believe it or not), is considerably more inhumane than the methods being applied to abattoir operations at the moment. Mankind comes first. Your priorities are skewed if you think otherwise.

The answer is yes!

From a certified member of PETA.












(People for the Eating of Tasty Animals)