NYPD investigation into Kenya's Westgate Mall terror attacks reveals the truth behind the massacr

reply to post by mrwiffler


Why not help figure out the crimes in neighboring states? Boston Bombing? LAX? Newtown? How about the senators son shooting his father? New Jersey Mall Shooting? Do they need to travel to Africa? Do they need to investigate Africa?

New York Police Commissioner Ray Kelly told media yesterday his investigators did not know "with certainty" how many people were involved, "but we believe there were only four shooters."

Dynam

reply to post by JBA2848


Well, apparently New York City is free of crime, social unrest, injustice, litter or parking violations.

What have they done to achieve such a Utopia in modern times?

After all..I can't imagine how a city would have the cash to fly much needed police manpower to another continent and investigate something they can't charge or handle in even a passing way ...unless all those things above were already true at home. Right?

It would be almost criminally reckless to waste the cities money if those cops were needed for any form of crime where they actually work....so surely...this must mean there isn't any.

Tens of thousands of Kenyan immigrants live in the NYC area.

NYPD wants to know how Shabaab terrorists take over malls, and how not to respond

Those seem like causes for "compelling interest" if you think that way.

reply to post by tovenar


You mean NYPD sees man with gun. 8 Officers open fire killing man before he ever had a chance to touch his gun. Good thing he might have shot somebody. Mean while 12 bystanders were shot by police.

To me that sounds like what happened in Africa except on a larger scale. Do we need to tell NYPD that is not how they are expected to respond? Do they realize that you have to watch out for bystanders? Is NYPD planing on bring down buildings to get multiple targets in the future?

tovenar

Tens of thousands of Kenyan immigrants live in the NYC area.

NYPD wants to know how Shabaab terrorists take over malls, and how not to respond

Those seem like causes for "compelling interest" if you think that way.

So, does every city, or even just every major city...get to send their own investigators and police teams to any spot in the world where an incident has happened, which may have overlap to some future local event?

......or do we have a Federal Government for things of that nature?

Wrabbit2000

tovenar

Tens of thousands of Kenyan immigrants live in the NYC area.

NYPD wants to know how Shabaab terrorists take over malls, and how not to respond

Those seem like causes for "compelling interest" if you think that way.

So, does every city, or even just every major city...get to send their own investigators and police teams to any spot in the world where an incident has happened, which may have overlap to some future local event?

......or do we have a Federal Government for things of that nature?

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The Federal Government doesn't do what city PDs do. The feds don't answer the 9-1-1 phone. The Feds "develop investigations" of organized criminal activity, once they detect a pattern. The responders to the twin towers were local cops and local firefighters, not FBI and FEMA.

Dallas PD and Houston PD helped the US army in occupied Iraq; helped them install laptops in humvees, and more importantly shared software, for processing detainees more quickly----it pisses off the locals LESS when you release them within 2 minutes, instead of waiting half an hour for a cop to type in your papers and identification. The army wasn't equipped/trained to do police work in Baghdad, so a reservist cop asked his wife to mail him some laptops. When his brother officers back in the states heard about it, they got the sofware set up to enter arabic names and info.

Likewise, the NLETS (national law enforcement telecommunication network) that keeps the states' criminal records is administered by the states themselves, in a states-paid-for facility in Arizona. The FBI is just another "guest" on the system. And Canada uses our NLETS as another guest, and posts stolen vehicle info there, as well as using the database to check for stolen American cars found in Canada or at the border (as well as fugitives).

It is the upside of state sovereignty. There are somethings that state (and local) law enforcement does better than the feds. They share that expertise with other entities sometimes, for the sake of justice.

Why is the NYPD investigating this thing at all?!













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I would be curious to know what kinds of special powers etc are now granted to the police there, and if any new military assistance or bases are in the offing......

reply to post by tovenar

It is the upside of state sovereignty. There are somethings that state (and local) law enforcement does better than the feds. They share that expertise with other entities sometimes, for the sake of justice.

You'll have to show me where State Sovereignty carries outside the National Borders to claim right for foreign events, investigations or policy? That is, according to the Constitution, the place and purpose of the Federal Government.

Now we're not even talking states anymore, but individual cities. As I noted above..... If New York is flush for budget, without a dollar in the red.....and they have little to no unsolved or ongoing crime issues to focus their police efforts on...then maybe? Well, no, then they need downsized, to be honest. If they DON'T have that? Well..... The Federal Bureau of Investigation has generally headed international investigations.

Which makes more sense? Send a city police team to the other side of the world, in a foreign nation, where they can't even play like they pretend to have jurisdiction of any kind whatsoever ....or use the FBI who already HAS agents in Nairobi as well as MOST nations in the world today?

I think using the federal resources which we already pay to be in these nations as it is, makes a WHOLE lot more sense than sending city cops from their city jurisdiction to globe trot in work they can't do anything with but come back and share lessons with the others. FBI could do that too...and at a fraction of the price at Federal, not city dollars.

Wrabbit2000

Which makes more sense? Send a city police team to the other side of the world, in a foreign nation, where they can't even play like they pretend to have jurisdiction of any kind whatsoever ....or use the FBI who already HAS agents in Nairobi as well as MOST nations in the world today?

I hear what you are saying. I am not claiming they have any jurisdiction. Such agencies are present at the request of the host government, with the host government paying the bills, in cases that I know of.

I think using the federal resources which we already pay to be in these nations as it is, makes a WHOLE lot more sense than sending city cops from their city jurisdiction to globe trot in work they can't do anything with but come back and share lessons with the others. FBI could do that too...and at a fraction of the price at Federal, not city dollars.

edit on 16-12-2013 by Wrabbit2000 because: (no reason given)

Well, the federals kind of suck forensics. The FBI literally has no jurisdiction in a murder investigation. They don't have labs that are readily available for local investigations, and they wouldn't be used anyway. In a jury trial, you cannot just submit lab results. The lab technician has to take the stand so they can be cross-examined. You don't use a lab when the technician "may not be available" for the trial date, which could be years away. The result of this state of affairs is that 90% of the Labwork that is done in the US is done by local agencies. Likewise with the footwork involved in terror or criminal investigation.

Here in the US, the FBI shows up and assists local law enforcement who have already done the basic data collection. IF the question is one of data collection, NYPD (or any major PD) will beat the FBI hands down.

tovenar

Well, the federals kind of suck forensics. The FBI literally has no jurisdiction in a murder investigation. They don't have labs that are readily available for local investigations, and they wouldn't be used anyway.

I hate to correct you on this, but it's simply not true. The FBI Labs at Quantico in particular spend a large % of their time servicing the cases and requests of law enforcement all over the nation and at the local level.

Does the FBI Laboratory conduct examinations of evidence for anyone other than the FBI?

Yes. In addition to performing examinations for its own cases, the FBI Laboratory conducts scientific examinations of evidence, free of charge, for any federal, state, and/or local law enforcement organization in the United States. These services also may be made available to international law enforcement agencies under special agreement between the attorney general and the secretary of state.

Source: Primary FBI Website

That's a large part of their purpose and mission, outside of supporting the Bureau itself, of course. It's always been that way that I've read and understood it. Has something about FBI response to requests by State and Local law enforcement changed from what policy on their website states?

DISRAELI

Wrabbit2000
What is an American CITY police department doing sending CITY cops out to investigate international locations on terrorism? New York seems to think of itself as more than a mere city?

It was an exercise, according to the original article, "to familiarise themselves with what they might expect".
Now that comment ought to be conspiracy-worthy, I would have thought.

Hmm...i don't think so.

Someone may remember the details better than i, but i seem to recall the reason for the US police going over there was something to do with a white Irish Woman who was on their terrorist watch list (or something like that) and her being accompanied by a white American guy.

Sorry folks, but i can't remember any more than that..hopefully it might jog a memory or two with you guys with younger brains!

ETA: Perhaps the entire thing was staged a la 'Die hard villain style'...was there a bullion or diamond storage facility near the mall i wonder?

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Federal Rules of Evidence often don't apply in state criminal courts.

In Texas, this is particularly true with regard to fingerprint evidence. Texas now requires 14 points of similarity to call a fingerprint "identical." FBI uses "three distinct areas of congruence." The FBI report can be translated into Texan; but it remains that the Texas Supreme Court" considers the FBI system as potentially lax to the point where innocent people could be convicted...

Nor is Texas the only state that uses a higher (and more recent) standard to call prints a "match."

It's usually a pretrial motion, called a Daubert challenge to FRE (Federal Rules of Evidence). It is supposed to be made before trial. But even if it fails, a good lawyer can bring up the issue when cross examining the federal expert, who may be ignorant of the more demanding state standard. Juries just that, and they may discount the federal expert's testimony.

But yes, the FBI is very confident of the desirability of everyone using FBI labs. I am hardly surprised that their website says so.

reply to post by SloAnPainful


this is just more typical new york considering itself its own country bs . they had no right to go investigate there at new york city taxpayers expense. i mean they flagrantly violate constitution rights internation treaties remember they harassing that indian diplomat. they run their own private prison rykers. so yeah these knuckle heads felt they had to go show these african coppers how to do their jobs. smdh!