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Frontier Science: Ken Shoulders

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posted on Dec, 14 2013 @ 08:18 AM
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reply to post by Mary Rose
 


Zero point energy and "aether" are not the same thing whatever. They're not even close.

eta: they describe zpe that way because that's what it is. "aether" isn't related at all.
edit on 14-12-2013 by Bedlam because: (no reason given)




posted on Dec, 14 2013 @ 08:56 AM
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Bedlam
I think I posted something about it way back called "I will fear no evo" but its all over the trade rags of the day.


Oh, isn't that a clever expression?



posted on Dec, 14 2013 @ 08:59 AM
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reply to post by Bedlam
 


But they are related.

The concept of the aether has changed over time. It used to be thought of as static. Now it is thought of as dynamic.



posted on Dec, 14 2013 @ 09:31 AM
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reply to post by Mary Rose
 


More than evos I suppose given that he failed to prove their existence.



posted on Dec, 14 2013 @ 09:33 AM
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reply to post by Mary Rose
 


Not at all. One is a quantum ground state, the other is a putative transmission medium for EM waves. As alike as parakeets and cheese, although it's true the woo crowd likes to sprinkle both over their conjectures. Along with Tesla sauce.

eta: and actually it's been thought of as nonexistent for a bit more than a century.
edit on 14-12-2013 by Bedlam because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 14 2013 @ 10:25 AM
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reply to post by Asktheanimals
 





While the foundations Schools teach are useful they tend to form habits and thought patterns not conducive to anything radically creative.


Agreed.

But then again, so do a high percentage of people in general, especially on this forum.

Perhaps our faith in experts and established learning ought to be questioned and tested regularly, before we all start quoting the text books and accusing people and their off beat ideas as being the product of low educational standards...you know as i do that does goes on a lot around here too.

Personally, i would like to see ATS clamp down on such rhetoric as 'go back to high school' and variations thereof as classify such comments as being disrespectful to members, much the same way 'You're a moron' is currently classified.

While a few members will say such things in line with an organised agenda (of one sort or another), these quickly become parrotted and trotted out and used as a psychological tool to browbeat and stifle both ideas and progress of topic.



posted on Dec, 14 2013 @ 10:41 AM
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reply to post by Bedlam
 


I'm awaiting your support for:


Bedlam
Shoulders used to try to sell EVO bombs to the DoD.


and


Bedlam
I think I posted something about it way back called "I will fear no evo" but its all over the trade rags of the day. . . . It was back around the time the isomer weapon was in its first pass.


Is "evo" short for "evolution" instead of being the acronym for "exotic vacuum object" by any chance?



posted on Dec, 14 2013 @ 10:48 AM
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reply to post by Bedlam
 


Well, the fact is you're wrong. It has not been thought of as non-existent by everyone.

Your sarcastic remarks represent a fallacious debate tactic.

The fact is the source of the energy of the quantum ground state is the aether.



posted on Dec, 14 2013 @ 11:10 AM
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Mary Rose
reply to post by Bedlam
 


Well, the fact is you're wrong. It has not been thought of as non-existent by everyone.

Your sarcastic remarks represent a fallacious debate tactic.

The fact is the source of the energy of the quantum ground state is the aether.


That's called the Hamiltonian.

Do you realize that the "aether" had a specific physical meaning with proposed observable consequences in 1895 or so? Zero point energy and the like came out not much more than 20 years later. Both were understood by Albert Einstein very well in that time period and he didn't call ZPE anything like 'aether' for a very good reason which is that the physics is entirely different.

The physical implications of the 'ZPE' ---- actually the implications of quantum field theory which lead to ZPE among many other things --- are as Bedlam says as related as parakeets and wurst. The aether would be some underlying medium which breaks some global propagation isotropy of photons. Never been seen.

Scientists don't like to use obsolete names with misleading implications.
edit on 14-12-2013 by mbkennel because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 14 2013 @ 11:27 AM
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Mary Rose
reply to post by Bedlam
 


Well, the fact is you're wrong. It has not been thought of as non-existent by everyone.

Your sarcastic remarks represent a fallacious debate tactic.

The fact is the source of the energy of the quantum ground state is the aether.


Well, no, I guess people who don't understand EM still support it, because they can't quite grasp the fact that EM doesn't need an aether to propagate. Sort of like you still see people who think rockets need an atmosphere to push against.

However, behold the LCD you're reading this on. It sits there as a mute but undeniable indictment of aether.

And no, you are quite wrong. Aether would be to EM as air is to sound, except that EM doesn't propagate longitudinally and doesn't need aether. However, many decades ago when Maxwell was a pup, it was thought you'd need SOMETHING to wave if you had a wave. As Maxwell and his contemporaries worked on it, they discovered that not only would 'aether' have to have an impossible set of properties, but that you didn't need it anyway.



posted on Dec, 14 2013 @ 11:40 AM
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Mary Rose
reply to post by Bedlam
 


Is "evo" short for "evolution" instead of being the acronym for "exotic vacuum object" by any chance?


No, nor am I speaking of a '90s engine for Harley-Davidsons. The topic is Ken Shoulders, no?

However, in an odd twist of reality, Shoulders did come up with some useful things for DOD while at SRI, at least he got them going although they've taken off in a bit of a tangent and aren't being used quite the way he'd envisioned.

One was integrated ballistic electron logic, and the other was the very start of the plasma emission devices now used in more exotic aircraft.



posted on Dec, 14 2013 @ 12:00 PM
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Mary Rose
reply to post by Bedlam
 


I'm awaiting your support for:


Bedlam
Shoulders used to try to sell EVO bombs to the DoD.


and


Bedlam
I think I posted something about it way back called "I will fear no evo" but its all over the trade rags of the day. . . . It was back around the time the isomer weapon was in its first pass.


Is "evo" short for "evolution" instead of being the acronym for "exotic vacuum object" by any chance?


I actually found some docs - you have to realize this stuff was all going on whilst I was still in the Army and it had several short revivals before dying off. So there's a decided lack of good stuff on the net I can link you to, because it's all mid 80s pre-net, and was considered pretty oddball then. The stuff I did find is sort of overlapping something I worked on/am working on and I'm not sure if I ought to post it or not. Plus the civilian copy is all redacted. Especially the bits you'd likely want to read.

On top of that, I'm home three weeks for Christmas. If it gets boring, I'll keep digging. Other than that, you're likely only to get the occasional pass through the office sort of time devoted to it. Sorry, the wife and kiddies supersede you.

eta: Shoulders was working for the NSA at the time, over at SRI. I assume, since you posted it, that you agree he was at SRI. SRI is not the philanthropic hotbed of the fair, by the way, despite the pretty spin put on it on their website. It's more a zoo of the most outlandish stuff going on between all the TLAs. A sort of incubator for the shadier and more questionable dark projects we've got going on. Nothing that comes out of SRI, barring their public relations projects, is going to be what you'd consider 'beneficial to mankind' or even "aboveboard".



edit on 14-12-2013 by Bedlam because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 15 2013 @ 05:13 AM
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mbkennel
That's called the Hamiltonian.


Thank you. I'll look that up and read up on it.


mbkennel
Do you realize that the "aether" had a specific physical meaning with proposed observable consequences in 1895 or so? Zero point energy and the like came out not much more than 20 years later. Both were understood by Albert Einstein very well in that time period and he didn't call ZPE anything like 'aether' for a very good reason which is that the physics is entirely different.


All I know is that the aether was formerly thought of as static and that description was incorrect; it's actually dynamic.

I also recall that there is a lot of confusion about what happened with Einstein's work: That he's thought of as eliminating the aether from physics with his theory, but that actually in his later work he made it clear that there is an aether.


mbkennel
Scientists don't like to use obsolete names with misleading implications.


That is for very good reason.

We need a new term which will capture the properties known to exist and get rid of the confusion of the past. But mainstream physics needs to open up to alternative physics in order to do that.
edit on 12/15/13 by Mary Rose because: Typo



posted on Dec, 15 2013 @ 05:31 AM
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Bedlam
SRI is not the philanthropic hotbed of the fair, by the way, despite the pretty spin put on it on their website.


I know exactly what you're talking about.

From listening to Shoulders talk about his work, it sounds to me that any good he's done for humanity was in his own lab motivated by his own curiosity in his later years.

All of us are caught in a system in which we do the best we can with what we have to work with. We have to make a living.



posted on Dec, 15 2013 @ 05:49 AM
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reply to post by Mary Rose
 


Interesting guy - I will be looking at some of his work, and that interview which is linked in your source, a bit later on. Thanks for sharing. Seems he knew the catch 22 of science and academia, in that you can't discover much in the fringes of knowledge - quickly at least - if you are struggling to maintain your academic credentials. Skunkworks territory perhaps? I bet he had some fascinating connections.



posted on Dec, 15 2013 @ 05:57 AM
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I have made notes while reading about Shouders' work. I have a list of "electronic effects" that I think he's saying are all talking about the same phenomenon:

  • EVO = exotic vacuum object
  • EV = electromagnetic vortex
  • EV = electrum validum (strong electron)
  • charge cluster (could have no net charge)
  • CCT = charge cluster technology



posted on Dec, 15 2013 @ 06:06 AM
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FlyInTheOintment
. . . that interview which is linked in your source . . .


That YouTube video has poor audio. It was followed by a re-upload with better audio:



It requires a lot of patience to listen because it's not professionally done but there are some gems in it in my opinion.



posted on Dec, 16 2013 @ 07:48 AM
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Bedlam
Shoulders used to try to sell EVO bombs to the DoD.

What, that he was pushing getting funding for an evo weapon? I think I posted something about it way back called "I will fear no evo" but its all over the trade rags of the day.

It was back around the time the isomer weapon was in its first pass.

Posted on ATS?

Can you give me the name of one of these trade rags as an example?


Bedlam
I actually found some docs - you have to realize this stuff was all going on whilst I was still in the Army and it had several short revivals before dying off. So there's a decided lack of good stuff on the net I can link you to, because it's all mid 80s pre-net, and was considered pretty oddball then. The stuff I did find is sort of overlapping something I worked on/am working on and I'm not sure if I ought to post it or not. Plus the civilian copy is all redacted. Especially the bits you'd likely want to read.

These have nothing to do with what you posted on ATS?



posted on Dec, 16 2013 @ 09:08 AM
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Bedlam
What, that he was pushing getting funding for an evo weapon? I think I posted something about it way back called "I will fear no evo" but its all over the trade rags of the day.


The title was supposed to be a takeoff on the 23rd Psalm?



posted on Dec, 16 2013 @ 09:36 AM
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Bedlam
Well, no, I guess people who don't understand EM still support it, because they can't quite grasp the fact that EM doesn't need an aether to propagate.


You're saying EM propagates in empty space?



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