I need a doco about Atlantis/Lemuria!

I've heard interesting stories about South America and how it could fit the Atlantis stories.
I found more than I have time to read doing a google search on was Atlantis South America.

Here is an interesting read.
atlantismaps.com...

Apparently at one time, South America had a name including the word Atlanticus or so I read.
It fits the location too in my opinion.

I remember seeing a tv show that indicated farms in South America from thousands of years ago that they said would have required a population of at least 90 to 100 million people. These cultivated soils showed up on satelite images. There are also a number of ancient canals in the jungle area. If you go back 10,000 to 12,000 years, I believe you are getting close to the last ice age when sea levels were at least 100 feet lower than today.

cormac mac airt

Almost. Atlantis actually means "Sea of Atlas".

And so does The 'Atlantic' some might argue.

But more to Harte's point Herodotus placed his Atlanteans in Northwest Africa while Plato placed his Atlantis just outside of and directly in front of the Straits of Gibraltar. Close enough that it's alleged destruction caused access to and from the Mediterranean to cease. And nowhere does Plato mention a volcano being involved which negates any claim to Thera's destruction being the origin for the Atlantis story as some would like to believe.

Which makes me think that the whole thing is displaying the hidden truth about the curving globe Earth, how when you leave Gibraltar by ship and set out to the ocean, by a few hours even the highest mountains will appear to sink into the sea. Hidden knowledge written in plain sight like an allegorical piece of esoteric myth.....

Utnapisjtim
Which makes me think that the whole thing is displaying the hidden truth about the curving globe Earth, how when you leave Gibraltar by ship and set out to the ocean, by a few hours even the highest mountains will appear to sink into the sea. Hidden knowledge written in plain sight like an allegorical piece of esoteric myth.....

I understand what you're saying, but this knowledge wasn't hidden at all back then. Link

While it was a hundred years later that it was actually established to be round, everybody interested in the subject in Plato's time already knew this, and plenty of cultures around the world did as well, because, as you point out, it's obvious once you become a maritime culture.

Harte

reply to post by Utnapisjtim


The implication from your post being that people during Plato's time, particularly maritime people, weren't smart enough to know the difference between the sinking of an island directly in front of the Straits of Gibraltar and the disappearance of an object at some distance on the horizon. I'm inclined to believe otherwise.

cormac

reply to post by cormac mac airt


If the story was as simple as you put it we would have found Atantis long time ago. No trace of any island just outside Gibraltar. What is just outside Gibraltar is lit. "the Atlantis", the "Atlatic Ocean" or "Sea of Atlas" or whatever. The "island" could be the continent known as the Americas and the advanced culture discribed could be South American natives building pyramids and great cities where most people have trouble catching their breath and walk straight.

Utnapisjtim
reply to post by cormac mac airt

 

If the story was as simple as you put it we would have found Atantis long time ago. No trace of any island just outside Gibraltar.

We wouldn't find it, though, if it never existed, right?

What you say in the above post starts with the unwarranted assumption that there actually was such a place. From there you shoehorn Atlantis into whatever you can fit it into.

I understand that this is the way it is done by today's believers, but every one of those doesn't actually "believe" anything, they simply assume something. Belief cannot be maintained by an honest mind if one actually studies Plato's Dialogues.

Harte

Harte
What you say in the above post starts with the unwarranted assumption that there actually was such a place. From there you shoehorn Atlantis into whatever you can fit it into.

Which is basically what this forum is for. It's what people do here. Trying to find the truth behind myths and cover-ups or whatever.

I understand that this is the way it is done by today's believers, but every one of those doesn't actually "believe" anything, they simply assume something. Belief cannot be maintained by an honest mind if one actually studies Plato's Dialogues.

Harte

As for Plato, his 'cave parable' fits here. Feel free to sit and stare at the shadow of truth, "understanding" that it is nothing at all. Myths are such shadows, echoes from a higher dimention. The truth is out there.

Harte
We wouldn't find it, though, if it never existed, right?

What you say in the above post starts with the unwarranted assumption that there actually was such a place. From there you shoehorn Atlantis into whatever you can fit it into.

I understand that this is the way it is done by today's believers, but every one of those doesn't actually "believe" anything, they simply assume something. Belief cannot be maintained by an honest mind if one actually studies Plato's Dialogues.

Harte

And now that we find evidence that part of story might be based on actual event, but with misplaced location and time frame, you still drop whole story.

This reminds me of well documented city that archeologist had trouble to find Pi-Ramesses. Even well documented, it still mislead archeologist to dig at wrong place in search of this great city.

SuperFrog

Harte
We wouldn't find it, though, if it never existed, right?

What you say in the above post starts with the unwarranted assumption that there actually was such a place. From there you shoehorn Atlantis into whatever you can fit it into.

I understand that this is the way it is done by today's believers, but every one of those doesn't actually "believe" anything, they simply assume something. Belief cannot be maintained by an honest mind if one actually studies Plato's Dialogues.

Harte

And now that we find evidence that part of story might be based on actual event, but with misplaced location and time frame, you still drop whole story.

And what evidence do you suggest?

Can you come up with any ancient source other than Plato for the "lost" Atlantis?

I certainly can cite several references to Pi-Ramses.

If you can't see the difference there, then you just refuse to look.

Harte

reply to post by Utnapisjtim


Believers in Atlantis aren't looking for the truth, far from it. What they are looking to do is to rationalize Atlantis into existance no matter what it takes. And to stick the name "Atlantis" onto anything they find in the process. In the meantime many of these locations that have been, at one time or other, co-opted are being robbed of their own history in order to support the believers fantasy. That is the truth.

cormac

reply to post by Harte


Just to add to that Harte, Pi-Ramesses is a terrible example anyway as stories about it had always located it in the Egyptian Delta. At no point did it get up and move to say, Libya or Sudan. He's really grasping at straws to use it as an example.

cormac

reply to post by cormac mac airt


Fair enough I suppose. However, I think you generalise quite a lot here. Plato basically discribes an advanced civilisation beyond Gibraltar that sinks in the Atlantic. So sail out Gibraltar and a few nautical miles out and look towards the stern. Europe and Africa "sinks" in the "Sea of Atlas". Is it just me who see this parable here? An esotheric tidbit from the Antique?

BTW: Is that a Minoan axe in your avatar?

Utnapisjtim
reply to post by cormac mac airt

 

Fair enough I suppose. However, I think you generalise quite a lot here. Plato basically discribes an advanced civilisation beyond Gibraltar that sinks in the Atlantic.

No, Plato in fact describes a Bronze-Age society much like his own (though Plato's time was late Iron Age technically) only much more wealthy.

Harte

Harte

Utnapisjtim
reply to post by cormac mac airt

 

Fair enough I suppose. However, I think you generalise quite a lot here. Plato basically discribes an advanced civilisation beyond Gibraltar that sinks in the Atlantic.

No, Plato in fact describes a Bronze-Age society much like his own (though Plato's time was late Iron Age technically) only much more wealthy.

Harte

Some might say civilisation and the geological age they belong to are two different things that has nothing to say about eachother. The ancient Egyptians erected their great pyramids and temple cities during the stoneage. Some would say that in some areas, the stoneage Egypt civilisation was more advanced than our current civilisation. Looking at the technology they invented during this age, written language being one of them, tools for advanced masonry and other building techniques, money, astronomical calendars... the list is very long. We must remember that our brains today are equal to hundreds of millennia old brains of our same species. We aren't smarter today. There were cave men with stellar iq.

Harte
And what evidence do you suggest?

Can you come up with any ancient source other than Plato for the "lost" Atlantis?

I certainly can cite several references to Pi-Ramses.

If you can't see the difference there, then you just refuse to look.

Harte

First of all, I doubt that real name was Atlantis. From time of Solon hearing the story to time it was written down as utopian civilization, story as I said might change dramatically, just as some other stories of the time have been, many of them ending up in bible or other mythology books.

cormac mac airt
reply to post by Utnapisjtim

 

Believers in Atlantis aren't looking for the truth, far from it. What they are looking to do is to rationalize Atlantis into existance no matter what it takes. And to stick the name "Atlantis" onto anything they find in the process. In the meantime many of these locations that have been, at one time or other, co-opted are being robbed of their own history in order to support the believers fantasy. That is the truth.

cormac

I am not believer in Atlantis, and not romanticizing idea bout utopian civilization, just pointing that fall of Minonian civilization might be base of Plato's story. I believe that rational thinking would lead us to find that story was not all fiction, as Harte is trying it to make. I already mentioned oral tradition and how story can change trough time or get exaggerated.

cormac mac airt
reply to post by Harte

 

Just to add to that Harte, Pi-Ramesses is a terrible example anyway as stories about it had always located it in the Egyptian Delta. At no point did it get up and move to say, Libya or Sudan. He's really grasping at straws to use it as an example.

cormac

Unfortunately you missed my point. It is that even many times we have evidence and documents for example about places, it ends up to be at 'wrong' place. Wonder if you really know about it, as you would notice that it was wrongly believed that location was at Tanis, even all evidence and ruins pointed that it was not.

The site of Pi-Ramesses, recorded as being located on the then eastern most branch of the Nile, was lost for more than 3,000 years and was long considered the "Holy Grail" of Egyptology. The ruins at Tanis were discovered in the 1930s by Pierre Montet and the buildings and monuments of Ramesses found led early archaeologists to erroneously identify Tanis as the site of Pi-Ramesses, based on the "masses of broken Ramesside stonework [which] were visible in the ruins of San el-Hagar (ie. Tanis). In the 1960s, Egyptologist Manfred Bietak traced all the former branches of the Nile and dated them by the pottery found on their former banks. When it was found that the Tanitic branch of the Nile (Tanis' location) did not exist during Ramesses reign while the Pelusiac branch was at that time the eastern most branch, excavations began at the site of the highest Rameside pottery location, Tell el-Dab´a and Qantir. Although there was no trace of any previous habitation visible on the surface, discoveries soon identified the site as both the Hyksos capital Avaris and the Ramesside capital Pi-Ramesses.

Source: history.docuwat.ch...

reply to post by SuperFrog


Your argument falls flat just based on the fact that there is no evidence that Solon ever actually heard the story of Atlantis, nor is there evidence that Egypt had such a story written on pillars or registers anywhere in Egypt during Solon's time. The Egyptians didn't care much for the history of other nations and were almost xenophobic in their outlook towards same. They saw things as either "us", meaning anyone living in Egypt or "foreigners", meaning everyone else. They weren't interested in foreigners, at least not in the way Atlantis believers would like to think.

BTW, while the exact location for Pi-Ramesses was lost for some time it was always known that it had existed somewhere in the Nile Delta. And its disappearance was, I'm sure, compounded by the fact that of the 7 branches of the Nile in the delta only a couple remain. Another example is Troy. Whereas it's exact location went unknown for a time it was always known to have existed somewhere in northwest Turkey. While it's still a matter of debate as to whether or not Hisarlik is indeed Homer's Troy, it exists in northwest Turkey. You've not shown evidence for, nor do I expect you have any, of an ancient "lost" location that was displaced by more than 1700 miles which would be the case if Plato's Atlantis, outside the Mediterranean were actually Thera.

cormac

reply to post by Utnapisjtim


Plato mentions no such "advanced" civilization but simply a Bronze Age civilization. And at a time that such an example was contemporary or nearly so to his own point in time. Which means you're reading more into what Plato wrote than he actually says.

Yes, that is a Minoan Labrys (double-headed axe) in my avatar.

cormac

SuperFrog

Harte
And what evidence do you suggest?

Can you come up with any ancient source other than Plato for the "lost" Atlantis?

I certainly can cite several references to Pi-Ramses.

If you can't see the difference there, then you just refuse to look.

Harte

First of all, I doubt that real name was Atlantis.

It was clearly not, since Plato actually tells us this.

You haven't read it, have you? If you had, you'd have known this.

So, another proponent of Atlantis that, at worst, hasn't even bothered to look at Plato's two dialogues on the subject (the only two references to Atlantis that come from antiquity) and at best hasn't studied them.

Harte

cormac mac airt
reply to post by SuperFrog

 

Your argument falls flat just based on the fact that there is no evidence that Solon ever actually heard the story of Atlantis, nor is there evidence that Egypt had such a story written on pillars or registers anywhere in Egypt during Solon's time. The Egyptians didn't care much for the history of other nations and were almost xenophobic in their outlook towards same. They saw things as either "us", meaning anyone living in Egypt or "foreigners", meaning everyone else. They weren't interested in foreigners, at least not in the way Atlantis believers would like to think.

Yes, clearly viewable by no-aggression agreement between Egyptians and Hittites, or by already mentioned witting about modeicine and magic from Minoans. Are you sure?

cormac mac airt
BTW, while the exact location for Pi-Ramesses was lost for some time it was always known that it had existed somewhere in the Nile Delta. And its disappearance was, I'm sure, compounded by the fact that of the 7 branches of the Nile in the delta only a couple remain. Another example is Troy. Whereas it's exact location went unknown for a time it was always known to have existed somewhere in northwest Turkey. While it's still a matter of debate as to whether or not Hisarlik is indeed Homer's Troy, it exists in northwest Turkey. You've not shown evidence for, nor do I expect you have any, of an ancient "lost" location that was displaced by more than 1700 miles which would be the case if Plato's Atlantis, outside the Mediterranean were actually Thera.

cormac

There was also theory that Troy actually was in Adriatic, near Neretva delta. (that would put it on opposite side from location in Turkey. Now, Troy, mentioned in Iliad and Odyssey we are certain existed... Would that mean that everything else in this 2 epics was also real? Did they tiny bit exaggerated in writings?

How is that account more accurate then for example Plato telling that Solon has heard story from Egyptians?

reply to post by SuperFrog


The existance of Troy regardless of its exact location was never a myth. It was a legend of a place that had long ago ceased to exist. Atlantis on the other hand was never a legend, it was a mythical/fictional place created by Plato in order to tell his allegorical tale. That there are those who want Atlantis to be more than it is says more about their mindset than it does about Atlantis' existance.

cormac