ALEC calls for penalties on 'freerider' homeowners in assault on clean energy

reply to post by defcon5


Bad analogy.

Most of our Expressways or Highways are privately owned.
Since they are privately owned, they cannot collect taxes from the residents in order to maintain them.
Hence they place Tollways on these roads so that they can collect taxes to maintain them.
That being said, the only people paying for the maintenance for those roads, are the ones using them.

Whereas with electricity... EVERYONE is paying for it whether it used by them or not.

Sovaka
Most of our Expressways or Highways are privately owned.
Since they are privately owned, they cannot collect taxes from the residents in order to maintain them.
Hence they place Tollways on these roads so that they can collect taxes to maintain them.

That's not true either, its much more complex than that.
For example, here we have a road that was budgeted to be a new free expressway, but they could not afford to build it until 2010. They started constructing it in the early 90's, and put it up for bid to private contractors. The Private company charges tolls, but they DO NOT own the road, the tax payers ultimately do. When the loan is paid off the road will revert back to being free again. Unfortunately it takes so long to pay those loans off, that we very seldom see a toll road become a free road in our lifetimes. However, if that company were to file bankruptcy that road is NOT closed, it reverts back to ownership of the state. Also when you see the road maintenance crews out there, they are DOT, just like any other free road.

US tax payers originally footed the bill to build the power grid, then it was bid off to private companies, but you can bet we are still responsible for maintaining it, and ultimately the owners of it.

reply to post by defcon5


Works a little differently here in Australia.

Most of the time it does work as you say.
But we have one stretch of highway here in QLD that is privately owned is maintained by them, not our local council.

But either way, on topic.

If you aren't using the Grid, you shouldn't be forced to help pay for it.

Phoenix


It is for the reason above that "excess" solar generation fed back into the utilities system is reimbursed. The reimbursement is far far below the per KW cost charged to a residential customer and is more apt to be at or below a level charged for a large industrial user. It only covers a partial amount of capitol costs saved by the utility.

If energy producing households are only getting a portion of what the Utility Companies sell that same KW of energy, then that covers the maintenance ect of the lines. Households should just store the energy themselves and sell to their neighbors and make more money for themselves, you know, cut the " middle man" (Utility Companies) out of the picture.

I'm Conservative, but I think the Utility companies actually get that excess power for a very good price. It sounds like they get it for far below market prices. If anything, I would think utility companies would want more of that cheap energy.

They want to tax water, sunlight, CO2......Just wait till they start taxing Oxygen.

reply to post by VoidHawk


Our sunlight??? Let the British Empire fall!! Most the cronies take orders from London. Maybe get the tyranny out of your own back yard first

Well we know who they are.

www.alec.org...

We can read what they think. If the sources are true.

www.documentcloud.org...

it's almost as if they are denying all the scientific evidence of man made global warming..

.. oh they are!


Solar is the best way for us to save our beautiful planet. People should be applauded for it, not condemned.

defcon5

When he is talking about infrastructure he is talking about the lines, transformers, etc...
When you are selling energy back to the electric company, you're not paying for any of the maintenance on the lines that you use to transmit that back to them. In effect everyone else who isn't running solar has to pick up that tab. So when you sell electricity back to the power company you should be getting paid the amount you transmit back to them minus an amount for line maintenance and repair. I guess right now there are no provisions in place to cover the expense of those lines for customers running solar.

This is much like saying if I grow my own food, make my own clothes and widgets some of which I sell back to Wal Mart at below market cost then Wal Mart can charge me a tariff because I'm not paying for the infrastructure available if I ever choose to patronize and use that infrastructure which they have to maintain - the store box that is.

Yup its that ridiculous for a utility to add extra fees for someone who reduces their overall capitol costs and the analogy is the same and the point applies to lines, transformers and substations because load reduction delays the need for upsizing these items for greater demand or in many areas reducing need to operate quick start peak load natural gas plants which reduces additional fuel charges for standard rate payers.

Another driver for this is of course franchise fees and taxes which governments stand to lose by reduced metered usage much like the Prius or hybrid automobile tax mentioned.

There is no justification for this other than greed and a desire to maintain the status quo.

"This is an issue we are going to be exploring," Eick said. He said Alec wanted to lower the rate electricity companies pay homeowners for direct power generation – and maybe even charge homeowners for feeding power into the grid.

NICE. That's like me opening up a lemonade stand (after purchasing all material and making it from scratch) and selling some to the government for a fraction of my personal cost. Then the government comes back to me as says, "Gee this lemonade is great! Unfortunately, you owe us for it. It's just not fair that you made it, and after all, we're making no profit here."

Yet another reason to desire to be off the government-provided grid.Too bad they make it near impossible to do so.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
Because many of these conservative groups support the energy industry, and despite their claims of wanting people to be more self sufficient and independent from the government, they still want to enslave you financially via energy, fuel, and other things. The more people that go off the grid and generate their own electricity, the less you give to the energy giants. Can't have that.

These "conservative" groups use subterfuge of appealing to popular notions of "liberty" for the purpose of naked self-enrichment. ALEC is a tool of Koch brothers who are major suppliers to Oil & Gas industries and exceptionally ruthless propagandists for the wealthy and privileged---like Goebbels working for the corrupt regime of Louis XIV.

It happens on the left too, but to a substantially lower degree and with less egregious consequences to the public.

Back in the old days, the right complained about that "hippie" solar energy which was never going to be price competitive and opposed all those subsidies. More sane people said that the subsidies were needed to kick-start an industry and at some point the economics would work out.

Well, here we are! And sure enough now solar is so competitive that some of the powers want to do a Tonya Harding and take a baton to the kneecaps.

Technical & Economic issues. Yes, of course net metering is using the utilities' infrastructure. And so what? Wholesale power suppliers are also using the utilities' transmission infrastructure to carry its product---and the utilities don't CHARGE them access or line fees, they buy power and re-sell it. Solar generators supply power to their immediate neighbors and don't use the very long distance infrastructure either (which is included in the utilities' infrastructure computations).

More importantly and what is almost never recognized is that the solar owners who are generating power are actually providing a totally uncompensated valuable service to the utility!! Solar power happens to generate the most exactly when demand is highest (especially in Arizona!), hot days with strong A/C use.
The solar generation is lowering the peak demand that the utility needs to supply. Peaking generation is MUCH more expensive than baseline---because you have to buy a plant which might be operational and selling power a tiny fraction of a time. The capital and expense that the utility does not need to expend thanks to the homeowner's generation is not compensated to the homeowner.

If it were fair, the utility would be buying power from solar generators on peak days at a strong premium above the average rate.

In financial options theory, there is ALWAYS a value to lowering magnitude of fluctuations & variability. Option prices have a significant value from volatility. So thus, even there were a technology (say like a 100% efficient battery) which on average generated NO net power, the utilities should still be compensating the owners of this technology because it is lowering variance in demand. The utilities bought an option (namely a call on peak power generation) and aren't paying solar owners for it. Solar is of course net positive generation and so the utilities should be paying the owners both for the power generated and the implied value of the peaking option.

Since this is option value complicated to compute, a rough and ready fair trade fully justifies 100% net metering for solar users (selling power back at the 100% retail rate) without any infrastructure charge. When solar generation becomes > 35% of total generation then the issue can be revisited.

JackSparrow17

"This is an issue we are going to be exploring," Eick said. He said Alec wanted to lower the rate electricity companies pay homeowners for direct power generation – and maybe even charge homeowners for feeding power into the grid.

NICE. That's like me opening up a lemonade stand (after purchasing all material and making it from scratch) and selling some to the government for a fraction of my personal cost. Then the government comes back to me as says, "Gee this lemonade is great! Unfortunately, you owe us for it. It's just not fair that you made it, and after all, we're making no profit here."

Yet another reason to desire to be off the government-provided grid.Too bad they make it near impossible to do so.

It's not the government. ALEC is on the side of a for-profit utility, which is arguing against government regulation which prevents them from being jerks to solar owners.

Guess what? Not everything bad in the world comes from government action.

grandmakdw
This is not as unbelievable as you think. They are going on Obama's policy of Europenizing the US.

That's hysterical nonsense. Facts have nothing to do with Obama or Europeanizing.

It's a very hard right "think"-tank funded by fierce opponents of Obama who are advocates for a large for-profit company who wishes to increase its own profits and against Obama's policies.

In particular, Germany has very strong (maybe too strong) preferences FOR solar.

reply to post by Southern Guardian


There is nothing called "free" anymore.

defcon5

As it stands now, those direct generation customers are essentially freeriders on the system. They are not paying for the infrastructure they are using. In effect, all the other non direct generation customers are being penalised," he said.

liejunkie01
I guess it's just me but this statement seems silly.
Does anyone else see the problem?

You guys are going to hate this, but I can see his point, and I think most of you are misunderstanding him.

When he is talking about infrastructure he is talking about the lines, transformers, etc...
When you are selling energy back to the electric company, you're not paying for any of the maintenance on the lines that you use to transmit that back to them. In effect everyone else who isn't running solar has to pick up that tab. So when you sell electricity back to the power company you should be getting paid the amount you transmit back to them minus an amount for line maintenance and repair. I guess right now there are no provisions in place to cover the expense of those lines for customers running solar.

Hi there, I don't agree with what you have said. I'm pretty sure the company makes enough profit when they sell the electricity produced by these homeowners to pay these fees (they buy it at
a fraction of the price they are selling it to the other costumers).

Do you really think they didn't calculate everything before setting the price they give to the 'freeloaders'?

These are big a$$ companies, every dime is accounted for (not like in the government). They just want more and more money and it seems they found a way go get it.

Hell, if they wanted, they could lower the cost they pay the 'freeloaders' for their overstock. But they want to scare and control people by creating yet another 'law'. That way, less people will be tempted to do it so, more cash for them!

Peace out.

VoidHawk
Solar panels have improved enormously, and our consumption has dropped because of digital devices therefore its completely possible to get off grid!! And thats why your seeing this BS. The energy masters dont want you to have it!

ETA: Am I right in thinking that I read on one of our recent threads that in some states you have to pay a tax for each kw generated via solar panel?

edit on 9-12-2013 by VoidHawk because: (no reason given)

ETA2: They are taxing your sunlight....!!!!

When will you guys stand up and say ENOUGH!!!

edit on 9-12-2013 by VoidHawk because: (no reason given)

I'm not surprised one bit the energy moguls don't want Mom and Pop middle class cutting into their
profit margin and they definitely don't want to see them starting a trend towards self sufficiency!
I wonder what will happen first "Americans awake" or "hell freezing over"?
People have to realize there comes a time when we need to draw a line in the sand
and say no more not one step farther!
I think some day, when we begin to see, only in truth, can we be free!
How far, ahead it lays, in our grasps, for desperations way
and only in great strife, will ever we come this day to see!
To pray to God that we may be!

Well for one, when we can, my plan down the road is to make some friction water heaters. We live in an area of almost nonstop sunshine, even in non convetional ones, windsocks or kinetic energy chimes. And possibly some parabolic mirrors, then turn the wheel of the water heater that makes steam in seconds, and add rows and rows of sterling engines, low heat engines in a small warm little room. And turn radiant heat into kilowatts with 30-50 of them. And won't be paying for anyting other than parts because I wouldn't obey a criminal judge who thinks I'm under his thumb. He's my servant and otherwise, my job is to see him doing time for crimes against humanity. All he has the power to do is see that I don't rape, murder or harm others, but he becomes a mass criminal when he tries to make me stand under his employee self. I don't value any of them, I see them as criminals and its up to us to be Good, not harm, and FREE. I'm never giving them earth. Earth belongs to the children. And they're never getting past me. If they even try, I'll be the one in the councils reveiwing their case and deciding that free will given to 2 years can't involve such a big playpen that they can play on the road and get their soul smashed. In other words, the bigger their diaper is, ie. filled with harm and enslaving others, the smaller their playpen needs to be while they're in cousneling because this universe belongs to everyone equally. But I don't obey criminals.

americans. when will you stand up. if something like this halpened in germanY heads would roll.

Southern Guardian
Yes, the American Legislative Exchange Council have set a number of legislative goals in time for 2014 and among them is a new law to penalize homeowners who install their own solar panels. Why on earth would anybody support this? It's beyond me.

The article explains it. Corporations.

It is important to their economy that people are forced to work as hard as possible.

The easier the masses' lives become, the less they have to work. Which means the 1% have less to feed off.

Famouszor
There is nothing called "free" anymore.

We in the western world are free.

I have to go and set my alarm clock now so I can get up on time to go to work so I can afford my human rights...

reply to post by mbkennel


Is that so? Read this. Apparently our state(s) legislators have say in this, so ipso facto, the government is still invloved, albeit in a Bilderberg sort of way. This is just one of the ways that politicians are devoid of souls, as they have sold them to corporations. Facial.

How ALEC Serves As A 'Dating Service'...