Please refer to the next post...

[edit on 5-4-2005 by yf23fan]

Originally posted by ghost
We can debate this forever, but the bottom line is this: The Pentagon said, both the YF-22 and the YF-23 prototypes improved upon the origional contract requirements! Either plane could forfill the ATF mission easily.

Now as for the marits, I feel Both plane had areas of advantage, and areas of disadvantage! I feel it came down to politics over product. The F-23 was the better design, but General Dynamics (who was on the F-22 team) pulled strings at the Pentagon to get the Contract. (NOTE: General Dynamics is the company who Cheated the US tax payers out of $5 Billion on the Navy's A-12 program (which was cancled in 1991) At the end of the Day, the proof of the ATF won't come from DC, or tests at Edwards AFB, but when it has to face an enemy in Air to Air combat, and the lives of Americans are on the line!

I'll admit Noprthrop builds expensive planes, but they deliver on their promises every time (Look at the F-14, the E-8, B-2, and the E-2)!

Tim
ATS Director of Counter-Ignorance

May I add the F-17 to the list? The F-17 did not win the contract but was later implemented/incorporated into the F-18 Hornet.

This weekend while I was in B&N, I came across an article on the FB-22, the bomber version of the F-22.

The striking resemblance to the FY-23 is undeniable.

There, standing at the bookstand, I instantly recalled how the cockpit was pushed out in the production version (F-22), compared to the prototype (YF-22).

In the most recent round, the horizontal tail wings were eliminated in the bomber version.

Now the transformation is almost complete.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
The FB-22 is a couple of years away but it would be a good replacement for the B-1 and possibly the B-2. It would be faster than the B-1 and it would be as stealth if not more than the B-2. And why do they have the FB instead of just the B designation is beyond me do they seriously think they can have a bomber and a fighter? Also it done have anything to do with the YF-23 is just an expanded F-22.

WP,

The F/B-22 could NOT replace either the B-1 or the B-2. They are both nuclear both strategic nuclear bombers - the F/B-22 will not be able to carry nuclear weapons. It also can not carry close to the number of bombs that either the B-1 or B-2 can. I do agree though that it could help replace the B-1 in some strike roles.

WP,

Originally posted by WestPoint23
the YF-23 is just an expanded F-22.

I do not think so.

Try doing some research BEFORE you post. May I point you in the direction of the Dorling Kindersley title "My First Book on Modern Combat Aircraft"

Cheers

BHR

Can we all just agree that the YF-23 will not be revived?

Maybe a new aircraft can be based around the YF-23, but the aircraft itself will not be revived.

Lets not compare the situation with the YF-17 and F/A-18.

The FB-22, if ever built, will not be at all able to replace the B-1 or the B-2, it just doesn't have that capacity, or Range. It may be more stealthy, but just doesn't cut it as a full bomber.

The FB-22, is not based around the YF-23, everyone here does know what the two look like RIGHT?

Shattered OUT...

Uhh... bill what is your reason for cutting that phrase out of the paragraph and quoting it?

And people the website I posted talks about the F/B-22 possibly replacing the B-1 and B-2.

Westy he is right, the YF-23 has a diffrent mission and diffrent abilities than the F-22 have....I dare to think of an airforce with both

The F/B-22 could NOT replace either the B-1 or the B-2. They are both nuclear both strategic nuclear bombers - the F/B-22 will not be able to carry nuclear weapons. It also can not carry close to the number of bombs that either the B-1 or B-2 can. I do agree though that it could help replace the B-1 in some strike roles.

Wrong, the F/A-22 is capable of carrying the B-61 nuclear bomb like all US aircraft, however, the F/A-22 does not have the unrefueled range of a strategic bomber, the F/B-22 will however. the F/B designation is probably to A) prevent confusion B) it will be able to carry out strategic bombing missions I.E. deploy a tactical nuclear weapon or deploy a large ammount of conventional ammunition.

Originally posted by BillHicksRules
WP,

Originally posted by WestPoint23
the YF-23 is just an expanded F-22.

I do not think so.

Try doing some research BEFORE you post. May I point you in the direction of the Dorling Kindersley title "My First Book on Modern Combat Aircraft"

Cheers

BHR

BHR you seem to think that you know more then anyone else by telling somone to do research before they post, well several Books I have and Modern air combat Books and magazines and popular science talk about The FB-22 being created from the F-22 airframe, or it even talks about reconstructin a F-22 already in use and converting it to the FB-22 For costs reasons,

So far your posts here have been on the negative side, and as far as ChrisT goes, keep in mind that he a fighter pilot and your not, so that means he is always a better pilot then you.

oh yeah do your research

The range of the FB-22 is said to be twice the range of the Raptor so it would be about 1200nm, without refueling.

Zak,

Originally posted by zakattack

Originally posted by BillHicksRules
WP,

Originally posted by WestPoint23
the YF-23 is just an expanded F-22.

I do not think so.

Try doing some research BEFORE you post. May I point you in the direction of the Dorling Kindersley title "My First Book on Modern Combat Aircraft"

Cheers

BHR

BHR you seem to think that you know more then anyone else by telling somone to do research before they post, well several Books I have and Modern air combat Books and magazines and popular science talk about The FB-22 being created from the F-22 airframe, or it even talks about reconstructin a F-22 already in use and converting it to the FB-22 For costs reasons,

So far your posts here have been on the negative side, and as far as ChrisT goes, keep in mind that he a fighter pilot and your not, so that means he is always a better pilot then you.

oh yeah do your research

Last point first, you know nothing about me so have no idea as to my background or piloting skills.

Next, if you bother to read the post I responded to it stated that the YF-23 is just an expanded F-22.

The 23 and the 22 are two seperate aircraft.

Do a bit of googling and you will find this out.

I never mentioned the FB-22 which IS an expanded F-22. This I know from doing some research.

Cheers

BHR

Originally posted by devilwasp
Westy he is right, the YF-23 has a diffrent mission and diffrent abilities than the F-22 have....I dare to think of an airforce with both

You raise an intresting point here! I have an older book at home that list both Aircraft. Under aircraft type, the F-22 is listed as an Air Superiority Fighter, while the YF-23 is listed as a Tactical Figher. If they were design for the same mission, shouldn't they be the same type of fighter?

Also, If you read up on the early history of the ATF program, it consided two diffieren missions one was Air Superiority, and the other was a tactical mission like the original F/A-18 Hornet. Has anyone ever thought that maybe the Air Force bought both aircraft? I mean think about it, if you develop both designs into operational aircraft you get almost a 100% return on the ATF Program. Also, Why would they go through the trouble to keep so many secrets about the YF-23 if it was a dead end?

Tim
ATS Director of Counter-Ignorance

Dear all,

There seems to be some growing confusion here. So lets clear some things up.

The YF-23 competed against the YF-22 for the ATF contract. It lost. The YF-22 won and became the F-22 in service.
If this is to confusing for you to grasp think of it like the current F-35. It was the YF-35 competing against the YF-32 for the JSF contract and when it won it became the F-35.
For those of an older generation, think of the A-10 beating the A-9 or the YAH-63 being beaten by the YAH-64, which became the AH-64 Apached we know and love today.

Now to bring this back, if anyone has a link to a reputable site about the use of YF-23 airframes for testing for some new role then please post them so we can move on with this.

Cheers

BHR

I know that many would have liked to see the YF-23 selected, but I believe the F/A-22 is better. It's ironic because I too was wanting the F-23 to prevail, but that was mostly driven by its more exotic appearance. We'll probably never really no for sure, which was better, but seriously who cares?

Depends what you judge "better" as...
Hey if the US hadnt gone to iraq mabye they could have afforeded the YF-23?

Originally posted by devilwasp
Depends what you judge "better" as...
Hey if the US hadnt gone to iraq mabye they could have afforeded the YF-23?

Based on the final cost of the F-22, Im betting that the person who put forward the F-22 over the YF-23 because of Northrops proposed costings is now kicking himself

The F-22 was supposed to be very cheap compared to the YF-23 offering, but Im thinking that thats because the Northrop budget was properly done, after the debacle that was the B-2 budget, Northrop was just more 'free' with the truth than Lockheed because they couldnt afford another PR nightmare that was the 'never ending' B-2 cost overruns

If you added it all up today, Im betting that the final F-22 budget isnt that far from the origional Northrop budget recommendation for the YF-23.

Originally posted by BillHicksRules
Dear all,

There seems to be some growing confusion here. So lets clear some things up.

The YF-23 competed against the YF-22 for the ATF contract. It lost. The YF-22 won and became the F-22 in service.
If this is to confusing for you to grasp think of it like the current F-35. It was the YF-35 competing against the YF-32 for the JSF contract and when it won it became the F-35.
For those of an older generation, think of the A-10 beating the A-9 or the YAH-63 being beaten by the YAH-64, which became the AH-64 Apached we know and love today.

Now to bring this back, if anyone has a link to a reputable site about the use of YF-23 airframes for testing for some new role then please post them so we can move on with this.

Cheers

BHR

Ok, you talk to us like we are school children, you do not know more than us, just because you know how to do a search, doesn't make you smarter.

Anyone who doesn't know the background of the ATF story, is probably not even posting here, as for everyone else who does post in this thread, I think it's safe to say we do know.

Shattered OUT...