I guess we'll never know if the cost escalation of developing the YF-23 to F/A-23A standards might have been better managed than it was with the Raptor. It WAS a better prototype, the cost estimates that Lockheed won ATF with have been shown to have been wildly optimistic, maybe Northrop would have been no different but its something to think about.

It's kinda funny, the YF-22 was supposed to be cheaper than the YF-23, but the YF-22 ended up costing close to 300mil...

It didnt lose it was simply not chosen by a politition.

Wasn’t chosen by many factors...

Yet you want to spend money on laser weaponry that "might" help your weapons tech?

With talk like that I sense jealousy...

Really?
Better speed and stealth not to mention the whole larger range thing.

TVC is optimized to achieve higher speeds then a conventional engine configuration would. Who would chose a fighter that cant get in close in a knife fight, cost a hell of alot more, only went slightly faster, had many software problems from the start and 'may' have had slightly greater range?

This ‘aint the '60s... It isn’t about all out speed anymore.

It's kinda funny, the YF-22 was supposed to be cheaper than the YF-23, but the YF-22 ended up costing close to 300mil...

Who's to say the YF-23 wouldn’t have had the same problem? The protos cost a fair bit of money...
Had the USAF been able to order its original amount it probably would have evened out at just under $100 a pop.

Either way I’m satisfied and hope to be one of the lucky to fly one some day. It will easily take down any opponent in its current configuration.
Just wait until they add the IRST jammers in a few years, the Typhoon will follow afterwards.

Originally posted by ChrisRT
Wasn’t chosen by many factors...

Yeah price and by polititions.

With talk like that I sense jealousy...

Why would i be jelous , we are allies after all our government's would trade techs like in the past, OH WAIT MABYE NOT!
Besides who needs a laser when you got a rail gun? We got one in scotland!

TVC is optimized to achieve higher speeds then a conventional engine configuration would. Who would chose a fighter that cant get in close in a knife fight, cost a hell of alot more, only went slightly faster, had many software problems from the start and 'may' have had slightly greater range?

You say get in close in a knife fight, BUT there would be no knife fight since the BVR combat would solve that , or are the USAF and raptor supporters mistaken?

There is no "may" about it , its stated in the specs.

This ‘aint the '60s... It isn’t about all out speed anymore.

First shot, first kill.
Name of the game in the military, speed and efficienty.

[edit on 25-12-2004 by ChrisRT]

You say get in close in a knife fight, BUT there would be no knife fight since the BVR combat would solve that , or are the USAF and raptor supporters mistaken?

Knife fights are always a threat and for the moment will be... What happened when a 2 ship formation of Raptors are on CAP or fighter sweep or escort or whatever else not and cruising at angles 20 and a fighter suddenly takes off from a highway and is on the Raptors 6 from visually seeing it or some advanced IRST picks it up? The Raptor needs to be able to robustly fight its way out of a close in dog fight...

There is no "may" about it , its stated in the specs.

Sure the airframe is slightly more aerodynamic but the official test papers say the YF-23 only achieved M1.8... The Raptor has been ~2.0+. The only limit to the Raptor was it's rear fins getting too heated from friction from long periods of high speed flight. This has been solved.

First shot, first kill.
Name of the game in the military, speed and efficienty.

Yep, and with super-cruise it can get further then most any other jet in a certain period of time, have enough fuel and anger to tear through the skies for a good while and RTB...

Who is going to be at a point first if they can only sustain M.8 or M1.5 100 miles away? Top speeds are only for dashed, BVR engagements and emergencies…

Originally posted by ChrisRT
Knife fights are always a threat and for the moment will be... What happened when a 2 ship formation of Raptors are on CAP or fighter sweep or escort or whatever else not and cruising at angles 20 and a fighter suddenly takes off from a highway and is on the Raptors 6 from visually seeing it or some advanced IRST picks it up? The Raptor needs to be able to robustly fight its way out of a close in dog fight...

Well i will give credit to the F22 and say that the F22 would pick up the fighter as it reached the air or at most when it was on the ground. Once it is found the group can do standard manovours and take them down, isnt it USA practice to take down all planes while on the ground?

Sure the airframe is slightly more aerodynamic but the official test papers say the YF-23 only achieved M1.8... The Raptor has been ~2.0+. The only limit to the Raptor was it's rear fins getting too heated from friction from long periods of high speed flight. This has been solved.

Well if the F22 couldnt stay up cause of heat problems surely the YF23 had a similar problem or was it diffrent?

Yep, and with super-cruise it can get further then most any other jet in a certain period of time, have enough fuel and anger to tear through the skies for a good while and RTB...

Yeah so can the YF23....point is?

Who is going to be at a point first if they can only sustain M.8 or M1.5 100 miles away? Top speeds are only for dashed, BVR engagements and emergencies…

The YF 23 was super cruise , i believe, and if it wasnt it wouldnt be trouble to up it. The F22 is a dogfighter, the F23 would have been the inteceptor. Frankly haveing both would have been very well used money.

Well if the F22 couldnt stay up cause of heat problems surely the YF23 had a similar problem or was it diffrent?

I think the YF-23 would have had a slight easier time maintaining higher speeds because of its more strait forward airframe design... The F/A-22s problem was solved last year though....

The YF 23 was super cruise , i believe, and if it wasnt it wouldnt be trouble to up it. The F22 is a dogfighter, the F23 would have been the inteceptor. Frankly haveing both would have been very well used money.

The YF-23 could easily super-cruise... It was part of the long list of requirements for the ATF program. The F/A-22 can easily fulfill the Role of the YF-23. It has achieved higher speeds regardless to whether the YF-23 could theoretically achieve higher speeds... There is no need to catch incoming bombers anymore. The places we do fight nowadays are wiped out before they can muster up an interceptor squad.

And yes, the YF-23 was slightly more stealthy, though, it wouldn’t matter is the F/A-22 was less stealthy then a B-1 as it still represents a huge
advancement over any other fighter there is.
It's just that the time someone develops a system to actualy see the F/A-22 like conventional radar does it would problably also se an F-23.

I personally think we spend a little too much on the military... What good would a force of 100 F-23 and 100 F/A-22s be? The cost would increase exponentially with the need for different types of training, 2 separate test and evaluation programs, and support equipment.

I dont us have operating limitations for the vertical stabs heating. There *was* however a limit put on the speed because at higher speeds the coatings would separate from the IFB(radome).

Bottom line is that the the F/A-22a Raptor has been selected to be the new Air Superiority Fighter of the United States Air Force.

The YF-23 was an interesting concept and design. But did not manage. So what is done is done, we are stuck with the Raptor whether we like it or not, there is no turning back now.

And the chances of anyone getting to fly a F/A-22 Raptor are very slim, since only the Elite Pilots will be training for them.

Shattered OUT...

Originally posted by ShatteredSkies
Bottom line is that the the F/A-22a Raptor has been selected to be the new Air Superiority Fighter of the United States Air Force.

The YF-23 was an interesting concept and design. But did not manage. So what is done is done, we are stuck with the Raptor whether we like it or not, there is no turning back now.

And the chances of anyone getting to fly a F/A-22 Raptor are very slim, since only the Elite Pilots will be training for them.

Shattered OUT...

THere you go folk! All summed up here...

About not getting to fly the Raptor; who knows what kinda pilot I will make...

On Tuesday, March 21, 2000, Tom Wetherall presented a speech at a regular AIAA Atlanta Section dinner meeting on the above subject.

Two months later, a meeting summary was available as part of the "WHAT'S UP" newsletter.

www.aiaa-atlanta.org/newsletters/news2000_05.pdf

ChrisRT,

It is not simply "what kind of pilot" you may make. It is also about the kind of person you are now.

As a result I do not see Raptor flying in your future.

Cheers

BHR

Originally posted by BillHicksRules
ChrisRT,

It is not simply "what kind of pilot" you may make. It is also about the kind of person you are now.

As a result I do not see Raptor flying in your future.

Cheers

BHR

Do you know the person personally? Do you have the right to stand by what you just said? Noone knows what ChrisT is like, he can become the best damn Raptor Pilot out there, noone can deny that, it's called getting to actually see the book, without judging it by the way someone else makes it sound.

Shattered OUT...

Shattered,

You judge a book by what it has to say. I judge people the same way.

Cheers

BHR

We can debate this forever, but the bottom line is this: The Pentagon said, both the YF-22 and the YF-23 prototypes improved upon the origional contract requirements! Either plane could forfill the ATF mission easily.

Now as for the marits, I feel Both plane had areas of advantage, and areas of disadvantage! I feel it came down to politics over product. The F-23 was the better design, but General Dynamics (who was on the F-22 team) pulled strings at the Pentagon to get the Contract. (NOTE: General Dynamics is the company who Cheated the US tax payers out of $5 Billion on the Navy's A-12 program (which was cancled in 1991) At the end of the Day, the proof of the ATF won't come from DC, or tests at Edwards AFB, but when it has to face an enemy in Air to Air combat, and the lives of Americans are on the line!

I'll admit Noprthrop builds expensive planes, but they deliver on their promises every time (Look at the F-14, the E-8, B-2, and the E-2)!

Tim
ATS Director of Counter-Ignorance

Originally posted by BillHicksRules
Shattered,

You judge a book by what it has to say. I judge people the same way.

Cheers

BHR

Really? I couldn't tell, it looked to me as if you were judging him without even knowing the entire story.

Yea, sit down.

Shattered OUT...

Originally posted by ghost
We can debate this forever, but the bottom line is this: The Pentagon said, both the YF-22 and the YF-23 prototypes improved upon the origional contract requirements! Either plane could forfill the ATF mission easily.

Now as for the marits, I feel Both plane had areas of advantage, and areas of disadvantage! I feel it came down to politics over product. The F-23 was the better design, but General Dynamics (who was on the F-22 team) pulled strings at the Pentagon to get the Contract. (NOTE: General Dynamics is the company who Cheated the US tax payers out of $5 Billion on the Navy's A-12 program (which was cancled in 1991) At the end of the Day, the proof of the ATF won't come from DC, or tests at Edwards AFB, but when it has to face an enemy in Air to Air combat, and the lives of Americans are on the line!

I'll admit Noprthrop builds expensive planes, but they deliver on their promises every time (Look at the F-14, the E-8, B-2, and the E-2)!

Tim
ATS Director of Counter-Ignorance

Well said. I think in terms of ability, the Raptor was the better all around aircraft - it had more ballance in it's abilities.

The Black Widow was probably a bit more extreme. It's stealth was superior as was it's speed.

My guess is that with the way I expect the Raptor to be used (mostly BVR engagements, and in large scale war as an interceptor), the Widow may have been a bit better. However, I think with the unforseen nature of war, the Raptor may be better able to deal with a wide range of situations do to it's better agility.

The reason the yf-23 is known as the black widow II is pretty simple. During world war 2 we had a night fighter known as the p-61 black widow. I figured I would mention this as shattered's reference to the yf-23 as a black widow II seems to have generated some confusion.

Originally posted by Sugarlump
The reason the yf-23 is known as the black widow II is pretty simple. During world war 2 we had a night fighter known as the p-61 black widow. I figured I would mention this as shattered's reference to the yf-23 as a black widow II seems to have generated some confusion.

Actually, I recall reading an article that the test pilots called it BlackWidow II because it sort of looked like the BlackWidow spider, however, there was never any BlackWidow I, but there was a WWII aircraft BlackWidow, so they named it II.

Shattered OUT...