Colorado's Masterpiece Cakeshop Must Serve Gay Couples Despite Owner's Religious Beliefs, Judge Ru

Darth_Prime

as i have written many times before i am the first to defend everyone's right and freedom to speech, thought, belief etc even if it is against me or my thoughts. but that doesn't have to translate into discrimination, do you have the right as a person to discriminate? yeah you do, but we should be looking at this from a bigger perspective, everyone gets caught up in the "Gay" and we have an agenda, and we are asking for special rights. but the bigger picture is if we allow discrimination for one person it will be for everyone, so it factors into Race, and Gender etc. the same thing you said the laws were for back in the 50's for Civil rights, this is also for civil rights.

I could really care less what people do in their own life.

Darth_Prime
serving someone in a business you own that is for serving the public has nothing to do with your personal belief, no one is saying they should be forced to "accept" another human being that is Gay, but that if you offer a service to people, it is for everyone.

Yes, it has everything to do with my personal beliefs. It is MY business. Not the public's, not the Govt's, not my neighbors. It is MY business. I operate it under MY beliefs and MY way.

Darth_Prime
they can believe whatever they want

Guess not.

Darth_Prime
reply to post by macman

 

as i have written many times before i am the first to defend everyone's right and freedom to speech, thought, belief etc even if it is against me or my thoughts. but that doesn't have to translate into discrimination, do you have the right as a person to discriminate?

Funny he views marriage as a religious ceremony like many Christians do, J dont think them believing it is a religious ceremony impacts your rights at all. However making them do something for the ceremony definitely impacts their beliefs.So whos discriminated against in this situation exactly?

yeah you do, but we should be looking at this from a bigger perspective, everyone gets caught up in the "Gay" and we have an agenda, and we are asking for special rights. but the bigger picture is if we allow discrimination for one person it will be for everyone, so it factors into Race, and Gender etc. the same thing you said the laws were for back in the 50's for Civil rights, this is also for civil rights.
serving someone in a business you own that is for serving the public has nothing to do with your personal belief, no one is saying they should be forced to "accept" another human being that is Gay, but that if you offer a service to people, it is for everyone.

Ok judging by your statement i assume your gay so lets be honest shall we gays are fighting for acceptance not rights.Luckily their is alot of people like me out there who really dont care. But if this wasnt about acceptance it wouldnt have went to court would it? The gay community has moved from getting the same rights to now seeking approval. If you remember the fight started to get civil unions they found most people dont care. So then i guess figuring that was to easy they said well you know we would like to get married too. And boom the issue blew up because people see marriage differently.

they can believe whatever they want

Obviously as long as they agree with you! Since the baker believes a wedding is a bond of a man and woman in a contract with god. See you have obviously never been to a christian wedding do you know they have a call to service? This is the guests inviting god to attend their union. Then they go into a call to prayer usually lead by the priest where they will pray for the couples happiness in their union.Then they move on to the charges this is where the priest explains they are entering a covenant with god! So to a christian a marriage is far more then just a tax break or two people who love each other it is a religious ceremony.

Yes i am Gay, thought you could tell by the "Drag Queen" title

anyway, i don't think a lawsuit is going to change anyone's mind abut issue as this, i may be young (23) but i know you cannot make someone change their mind, i have been discriminated many times before, i didn't file a lawsuit, it would not take back the humiliation and the thought that people are not accepting of other human beings because of their sexuality.

these people selected to file a lawsuit, and i agree the Media and other people who have an agenda will use this to their advantage, but i applaud these people bringing situations like this to the forefront, to show that you can't hide away discrimination that is clearly continuing

as i stated, if he believes a Marriage is between a man and a woman because of his religion that is his personal belief, but him making a cake is what his occupation is,to deny a cake to someone based on sexuality is discrimination, we can't argue that point because it is defined as discrimination.

we have laws that protect us from discrimination, i don't own a business so i can't claim to know what goes on, but if you open a public service you have to abide by the laws which you opened it under

Darth_Prime
Yes i am Gay, thought you could tell by the "Drag Queen" title

anyway, i don't think a lawsuit is going to change anyone's mind abut issue as this, i may be young (23) but i know you cannot make someone change their mind, i have been discriminated many times before, i didn't file a lawsuit, it would not take back the humiliation and the thought that people are not accepting of other human beings because of their sexuality.

these people selected to file a lawsuit, and i agree the Media and other people who have an agenda will use this to their advantage, but i applaud these people bringing situations like this to the forefront, to show that you can't hide away discrimination that is clearly continuing

as i stated, if he believes a Marriage is between a man and a woman because of his religion that is his personal belief, but him making a cake is what his occupation is,to deny a cake to someone based on sexuality is discrimination, we can't argue that point because it is defined as discrimination.

we have laws that protect us from discrimination, i don't own a business so i can't claim to know what goes on, but if you open a public service you have to abide by the laws which you opened it under

You just totally glossed over the issue. See he may have no problem with gay couples your assuming he does. His argument is marriage is part of his religious practice same as i showed you. And he doesnt want to participate in anything that in any way denigrates his religious beliefs. He feels by assisting this marriage he is undermining a covenant with his god! So hes choosing to abide by his beliefs and decline to make money baking the cake. By forcing him to do so what were telling him is effectively sorry we think your beliefs are wrong and by doing so destroying freedom of religion. In truth its probably a good thing becauses religions cause so many problems in the world but again not are place to decide what he believes.

If this baker had said you know guys were closing. Id bet they would have called him several expletives and left. But he didnt he explained to them about his belief in marriage and that is why there was a law suit! Because they knew if he just told them to take a hike they couldnt prove why he did this. The reason they chose baker was they knew he would argue his belief in court it was for no other reason than to try to show his beliefs wrong. And i know you know this as well if he had just looked them in the face after they asked him to bake a cake and said you know im really busy that day i dont think ill have the time (lie to them). And said nothing else they wouldnt have been able to take this to court. The whole purpose of this was to show him what his beliefs stand for.

dragonridr
Because they knew if he just told them to take a hike they couldnt prove why he did this.

The reason they chose baker was they knew he would argue his belief in court it was for no other reason than to try to show his beliefs wrong.

dragonridr
Ok judging by your statement i assume your gay so lets be honest shall we gays are fighting for acceptance not rights.Luckily their is alot of people like me out there who really dont care. But if this wasnt about acceptance it wouldnt have went to court would it? The gay community has moved from getting the same rights to now seeking approval. If you remember the fight started to get civil unions they found most people dont care. So then i guess figuring that was to easy they said well you know we would like to get married too. And boom the issue blew up because people see marriage differently.

For someone that doesn't care, you seem to know a whole lot about the big gay master plan to take over the world. It appears someone has provided you with the big gay agenda conspiracy planning manual ... le sigh ... and everything was going so well!

dragonridr
His argument is marriage is part of his religious practice same as i showed you. And he doesnt want to participate in anything that in any way denigrates his religious beliefs. He feels by assisting this marriage he is undermining a covenant with his god!

Then he needs to move to a state where discrimination against gay people is permitted in business. Simple as that.

reply to post by Willtell


I think most if not all would have issue with them refusing to serve a black, white, or asian person. Why should a gay person be any different...

Darth_Prime
Yes i am Gay, thought you could tell by the "Drag Queen" title

Believe it or not, some of the most fun I have had out, was at a club locally know for awesome drag queen nights.
I am straight, married, family person, Military/LE Vet, love boobies and work in both IT and Firearms. But, Drag shows are pretty fun.
I personally could care less what people do in their bedrooms.
My faith teaches me it is a sin, but I still love the person, not the action.
Being a Drag Queen does not equate to being Gay.

Darth_Prime
anyway, i don't think a lawsuit is going to change anyone's mind abut issue as this, i may be young (23) but i know you cannot make someone change their mind, i have been discriminated many times before, i didn't file a lawsuit, it would not take back the humiliation and the thought that people are not accepting of other human beings because of their sexuality.

Sounds like you were being a grown-up then.

Darth_Prime
these people selected to file a lawsuit, and i agree the Media and other people who have an agenda will use this to their advantage,

And I would suggest the business was targeted.
The Lawsuit is crap. It was done for hype and publicity, plain and simple.

Darth_Prime
but i applaud these people bringing situations like this to the forefront, to show that you can't hide away discrimination that is clearly continuing

We should not be applauding these people.
All they did was show that the bully force of a small group can force someone else to go against their beliefs.
If the tables were turned, would you have an issue?

Darth_Prime
as i stated, if he believes a Marriage is between a man and a woman because of his religion that is his personal belief,

Yes, and personal beliefs are allowed to be lived, not just thought of.

Darth_Prime
but him making a cake is what his occupation is,to deny a cake to someone based on sexuality is discrimination, we can't argue that point because it is defined as discrimination.

It is discrimination. No doubt about that.
I discriminate against things and people all the time. It is not this evil thing that the media and the small agitators have turned it into.

Darth_Prime
we have laws that protect us from discrimination, i don't own a business so i can't claim to know what goes on, but if you open a public service you have to abide by the laws which you opened it under

And when the laws are Unconstitutional, then what?

chrismarco
reply to post by Willtell

 

I think most if not all would have issue with them refusing to serve a black, white, or asian person. Why should a gay person be any different...

I personally don't.

I am not narcissistic enough to believe I can force someone, or should force someone to do something that goes against what they believe.

I have personally been almost walked out of places in the Barrio area of Phoenix because I am white.
Did I cry, bitch and moan? File a Lawsuit. March or protest??? No. I went somewhere that wanted my business.

Why does anyone have this belief that the best scenario is to force someone to do something against their will???

Would you force a person that hates you, I mean despises you, to go behind a wall and make you food???

Spit....Meet hamburger....

reply to post by macman


So if a business was the only business within 500 miles that sold tools, would you drive 1000 miles round trip to pick up a wrench?

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


Yes, that would be my choice.

I would not force someone to do business with more, or provide me a service.

reply to post by FissionSurplus


In my opinion, the true capitalist or entrepreneur only sees revenue, markets , income streams and green if they truly believe in their business and it's survival, if you have a way to sustain your business by canceling out income I'd say you're not in tune with today's dynamics of running a successful business.

If that strategy works for you then I say stick with it, however, word of mouth can make or break you and by directly rejecting customers you must also consider you will cancel out customers who might even remotely be connected or sympathize with that demographic who would otherwise add to your bottom line.

By the way the genesis of the refusal to deny service is part of the era that lay in the wake of Jim Crow laws, those signs more than likely were first presented at lunch counters in department and drug stores and the sole purpose of that message if you do your research was to reject service to blacks, now the usage of the sign has grown to encompass any reason that you do not want to serve a customer.

*** Disclaimer ... Haven't read the whole thread ...

If a cake shop doesn't want to make you a cake but they are forced to .... wouldn't you be a little suspect of the cake that they presented to you later? I mean ... isn't that like going to a restaurant and ordering a meal but sending it back to the kitchen and telling them to 'get it right'??? You just don't do that because you just know the chef will spit in it or something.

reply to post by FlyersFan


He just needs to rename his business to "Straight Cake" then maybe his point will be understood.

Benevolent Heretic
reply to post by macman

 

So if a business was the only business within 500 miles that sold tools, would you drive 1000 miles round trip to pick up a wrench?

Stupid argument you could use UPS see this statement is nothing but grandstanding. We can play what ifs but it doesnt change anything.

FlyersFan
If a cake shop doesn't want to make you a cake but they are forced to .... wouldn't you be a little suspect of the cake that they presented to you later?

It's not about this couple getting a cake from this baker. They had their cake long ago (in June, I believe). It's about holding the baker accountable to the law.

dragonridr

Stupid argument you could use UPS.

And could UPS deliver a meal because the restaurants in your town no longer serve white people?

reply to post by Pinke


No just been around long enough to watch the agendas change. At first gay and lesbians were pushing for civil unions that disappeared when they realized people were more then happy to give them the same legal rights. Thats when they started pushing for marriage. Goals change for some reason they feel the need for acceptance i dont think they intend to take over the world you seem a little melodramatic if you ask me. So you deny the fact that there is an agenda seems a bit naive to me but hey believe what you will.

reply to post by macman


Yes, if a Gay owner denied services to a straight person i would have just as many issue, i believe in Equality, we are all human.

how do we not know this owner took the opportunity to claim his dislike of same sex marriages? how do we know it wasn't the perfect opportunity for him to take his "Stand" against this "Sin"? how do we not know he knew this may get media attention?

likewise how do we know the couple didn't target the store knowing they would get denied and thus create media attention? we don't, and i wont argue that point, the only point i am trying to make is discrimination is wrong, and protected under the laws which they opened their business, if they want to disregard the laws than they pay the consequence

Benevolent Heretic

FlyersFan
If a cake shop doesn't want to make you a cake but they are forced to .... wouldn't you be a little suspect of the cake that they presented to you later?

It's not about this couple getting a cake from this baker. They had their cake long ago (in June, I believe). It's about holding the baker accountable to the law.

Odd so aparently no problem for them to find a cake so what was the point. Oh i get it you want to hold the Baker responsible for his beliefs. See sounds alot like they are trying to use the law to regulate his beliefs. In truth the lawsuit did nothing you and i know the baker would do it again this time hell be smart though either not finnish the cake on time or simply tell them hes to busy it will change nothing. Other than to teach others to lie i guess. You can not legislate people to get them to change their beliefs. So this wasnt about holding the baker responsible about anything it was for the publicity it would cause.