Nelson Mandela has died

Dutchowl
...
His wife, though, what a mess.

I'm guessing you mean his ex-wife, Winnie Mandela...Yeah. She is bad news...

We surely arent short on idols to idolize these days... regardless of their own actions or the fallout of their sycophants past, present and future actions.

... and my flag is ORDERED to be flown at half staff... for Mandela. President Obama has ordered US flags to half staff Immediately until Sunset, December 9, 2013 in Honor of Nelson Mandela. This is a man that was on the Western Terrorist watch list until 2008... and involved with the CIA since '62. I wonder what ATS is all about anymore when so many idolize folks with this history.. with no scrutiny. Why isnt Mandela put under the same microscope as others who have even less involvement with the CIA and etc. Rhetorical question, of course.

No great person.. or leader for that matter.. has a flawless record. Lets not be one sided here though. The man was a beast and to some certain folks..a savior/leader/idol.. depending on who you were. I like to judge idols and demigods on their legacy... and Mandelas legacy will be ( as in from his death FORWARD.. not his past he had "regretted") awash with blood of innocent people due to their skin color and ancestors actions.

Please read the copy of the handwritten manifesto written by Mandela : How to be a good communist.
A free download : archive.org...


I know.. we arent supposed to speak about Mandelas own racism toward whites even post incarceration or his 48,000 Soviet-made anti-personnel mines and 210,000 hand-grenades... that many should be thankful he was caught and imprisoned for before he could order their use. Verboten is discussion of what he was involved in during his imprisonment... in his supposed isolation.. or about his racist statements even relatively recently. Google is there. You dont have to read commentary with a slant, just read his own words. No matter though, his great legacy lives on. Youll get your bloodshed in his name some of you want.. and call it freedom fighting.

My flag will NOT be flown half staff for this idol.

Gemwolf

Dutchowl
...
His wife, though, what a mess.

I'm guessing you mean his ex-wife, Winnie Mandela...Yeah. She is bad news...

There are a few gems.. but my favorite Winnie quote is her 1986 peace loving statement : With our boxes of matches and our necklaces we shall liberate this country.

Advantage

Gemwolf

Dutchowl
...
His wife, though, what a mess.

I'm guessing you mean his ex-wife, Winnie Mandela...Yeah. She is bad news...

There are a few gems.. but my favorite Winnie quote is her 1986 peace loving statement : With our boxes of matches and our necklaces we shall liberate this country.

That speaks volumes.

I was going to post the history of that guy,but thought better of it, suffice to type that some people need to read his history, and the history of the ANC.
He left SA with one of the highest murder rates in the world, AIDS is rife, the tribal lands still have witch doctors who tell their people (males) to rape a virgin to get rid of aids, there is enough information if you care to dig for it.

I'm actually a bit in two minds about the passing of Mandela, and I'm neither going to hail a "saint" into the afterlife, nor am I going to pop the champagne.

I've left my critiques of Mandela on ATS over the years, mainly believing that the Western countries were so taken by the propagandist Mandela-industry that they would ignore the complexities of South Africa, and that our politics after the Mandela presidency were still viewed so simplistically that state violence, dispossession and racism against minorities would be entirely ignored, or even applauded.

But it's over now, at least in one sense.

As a young man I was elated when Mandela was released.
We knew that all sides had committed atrocities, but there was a Cold War in many countries.
I still believe to this day that SA's racial problems would have been resolved much sooner if it wasn't for US and Soviet interference at a crucial stage, and the fact that apartheid SA really felt there was a communist total onslaught against it (which there actually was).
Neither was it a simplistic black/white conflict beyond the ANC propaganda.
By 1994 there were many white activists dancing at UDM and ANC rallies (which is interestingly no longer the case now), and even traditional Afrikaans universities like Stellenbosch were openly playing alternative anti-apartheid music.
We were also tired of the apartheid fascism, the censorship, the global boycott and the military conscription to fight a CIA-inspired war in Angola.
Over sixty percent of whites voted for reform.

The ANC also led a war against other black movements like AZAPO, and notably Inkatha.
Usually they blame this on a mysterious "third force", although this was never proven, and it increasingly seems that the only "third force" was an invention of the ANC in cahoots with brow-beaten, career-driven liberal journalists and sections of apartheid's security forces.
There are still rumors of many conspiracies and secret talks, which ultimately indemnified all the politicians, and manipulated others into power.

There are also still rumors of who really organized the assassination of Chris Hani.
Then there were hits on the ex-MK members who had escaped from ANC concentration camps, like Quatro, and questions of why MK actually contributed so little to the struggle, and why so many were subsequently abandoned without compensation, while their exiled leaders seemingly enriched themselves with smuggling operations in countries like Zambia.

Nevertheless, Mandela's presidency was actually the best we ever had in many ways.
He kept the most crucial and educated sectors of the white, Indian and colored communities intact, realizing that their expertise would be crucial to facilitate upliftment and service delivery to the black majority.
In fact, he told us whites that we had a special responsibility to stay and help make things work.

Actually, when I came to dislike Mandela and revisit his terrorist past, or his involvement in the corrupt arms deal (that by now cost SA well over the initial R60 billion with no returns whatsoever, and planes and submarines we can't even use) it was well into the Mbeki era.
And to me Mbeki was a paranoid nutcase, and mentally unstable.
He was essentially toppled by his own party.

Well, that's all in the past.
Later one also almost pitied Mandela, and the party (and at times, the family) he was stuck with.
Rumor had it that they kept him alive artificially for months, and that he was practically "dead" in any case.
How convenient for them to pull the plug now, just as another American film about him is a local hit, and SA almost had its first major civil disobedience campaign (that united various segments of society in ways that I haven't seen since the late 1980s) against toll-roads and unfair taxation.
That pretty much seemed the standard propaganda response of the ANC - whenever their more racist, corrupt and undisciplined members threatened to cause alarm, they'd wheel out "Madiba" or his image to fix things.
That became more annoying than the man himself.
That the man himself was respected and even liked by his opponents is without question.

Whatever the case, he's free now.
Free also from the ANC.

And before there are accusations of white/black issues only, I'd encourage people to look at white tributes and facebook pages - Mandela was deeply loved and respected by most South African whites almost above and beyond what the ANC has become.

reply to post by alldaylong


I live in redneck country in the Appalachia's. Damn right. You say it like it's a negative thing or something. Go worship your Mandela the racist killer.


On Topic:
Good riddance to Nelson Mandela the terrorist racist who committed many crimes against humanity. I cannot believe how some people are trying to give him sainthood. He was a killer and hated white folk. I hope he burns in hell for eternity. His wife/ex-wife should have her picture beside the word 'EVIL' in the dictionary.

With so many negative comments it seems many online on ATS would be willing to become what they claim to hate by advocating more hatred. Some people seem to feel him being killed Iis a good thing. You are allowing your feelings to guide you to become exactly what you claim to hate.

Nelson Mandela learned from his life, the man that died wad different than the man that wanted revenge. He learned that when you give in to hatred you can become what you hate and become part of the problem. That kind of hatred only breeds more hatred.

The man that died was a great man that was able to get his message of forgiveness to the world. If people never let go of that anger or hatred than nothing changes.

His message will help change the world for the better. Everyone basically spouting off how much you hate him for his acts while younger are showing you are EXACTLY like his younger self. He succumbed to anger and hatred but he was able to rise above it after personally experiencing atrocities as opposed to the internet warriors who only read about them and choose to judge from the comfort of their homes.

Let me put it another way, anyone that takes pleasure in his death or that feels it was justified, you are advocating for the young Mandela. Basically you are agreeing 100 percent with the man that felt violence was justified. Which means that you are a part of the overall problem encouraging anger and hatred as opposed to love and forgiveness, Nelson Mandela's most important message.

What made him great is not his actions as a "freedom fighter" even though everyone that hates him and took pleasure in his death have proven to be no different than his younger self, it should not be good to become exactly what you hate. You feel you are justified but so did he and many others with their hatred.

What made him great is his ability to rise above that hatred. If you truly hate what he did when he was younger the only real way to fight against that is to accept his message when he was older. Giving in to that hatred makes you just as bad as his younger self which even he was not proud of.

Advantage
We surely arent short on idols to idolize these days... regardless of their own actions or the fallout of their sycophants past, present and future actions.






.

I can understand why Obama idolizes him. Obama has no qualms with terrorizing other countries and it's citizens all for what? I do not idolize Mandela. My parents taught me the history of his past, when I came home from school one day with an assignment to write a term paper on him in the 8th grade. My dad was furious in fact, and asked the teacher to change my topic, then explained to me his reasoning why. My dad was concerned that I was being taught to see Mandela as a hero. Most everyone in America has been given a watered down version of Mandela's past.

reply to post by MidnightTide


Answer my question: Are you one of the many people on this site who proudly proclaim you are armed and will fight a terrorist government here in America?

Taissa

Advantage
We surely arent short on idols to idolize these days... regardless of their own actions or the fallout of their sycophants past, present and future actions.






.

I can understand why Obama idolizes him. Obama has no qualms with terrorizing other countries and it's citizens all for what? I do not idolize Mandela. My parents taught me the history of his past, when I came home from school one day with an assignment to write a term paper on him in the 8th grade. My dad was furious in fact, and asked the teacher to change my topic, then explained to me his reasoning why. My dad was concerned that I was being taught to see Mandela as a hero. Most everyone in America has been given a watered down version of Mandela's past.

edit on 7-12-2013 by Taissa because: (no reason given)

Did your dad illustrate the true story of America to you and are you proud of it? Are you familiar with the past treatment of American Natives and Blacks in America? Are you a patriot?

You, as everyone else, will not answer this because it will show your hypocracy...

pikestaff
I was going to post the history of that guy,but thought better of it, suffice to type that some people need to read his history, and the history of the ANC.
He left SA with one of the highest murder rates in the world, AIDS is rife, the tribal lands still have witch doctors who tell their people (males) to rape a virgin to get rid of aids, there is enough information if you care to dig for it.

And what do you think of America?

starfoxxx
I'm glad he's finally dead. How many more times were we going to have too hear that he died when he never actually did.

When I heard it again yesterday, I did not know if it was another fluke or not..

Interesting that you say that, because my mom told me yesterday she thought he died years ago, and was surprised to hear that he "died again".

I mean this is just GOLDEN!!!!!!

I am literally so confused by white people...LOL!

The bias and systematic racism is so evident, yet most of you can't or refuse to recognize it!

Let one of the farmers organize the others and they begin slaughtering the natives and you will all be cheering them on calling them heroes? GUARANTEE IT!

You same people who are on this site screaming that you will oppose and fight a corrupt government? This is what younger Mandela was doing...fighting a corrupt government which was basically enslaving his people IN THEIR OWN LAND!!!!

Where do people who consider him a monster come off, I mean really? It's worldwide, systematic racism. And I don't want to hear your "well the white man brought civilization to them" bullshosh because I would rather live in a mud hut with no electricity than live as the natives did in South Africa!

DZAG Wright

Taissa

Advantage
We surely arent short on idols to idolize these days... regardless of their own actions or the fallout of their sycophants past, present and future actions.






.

I can understand why Obama idolizes him. Obama has no qualms with terrorizing other countries and it's citizens all for what? I do not idolize Mandela. My parents taught me the history of his past, when I came home from school one day with an assignment to write a term paper on him in the 8th grade. My dad was furious in fact, and asked the teacher to change my topic, then explained to me his reasoning why. My dad was concerned that I was being taught to see Mandela as a hero. Most everyone in America has been given a watered down version of Mandela's past.

edit on 7-12-2013 by Taissa because: (no reason given)

Did your dad illustrate the true story of America to you and are you proud of it? Are you familiar with the past treatment of American Natives and Blacks in America? Are you a patriot?

You, as everyone else, will not answer this because it will show your hypocracy...

Yes, I'm very familiar with Native American history, black history, etc, and not the public school version of it. There is nothing wrong with parents teaching their children proper history. My dad didn't support Mandela or his methods. Public school does not teach proper history, for blacks, natives, or just about anything for that fact.

DZAG Wright
I mean this is just GOLDEN!!!!!!

I am literally so confused by white people...LOL!

The bias and systematic racism is so evident, yet most of you can't or refuse to recognize it!

Let one of the farmers organize the others and they begin slaughtering the natives and you will all be cheering them on calling them heroes? GUARANTEE IT!

You same people who are on this site screaming that you will oppose and fight a corrupt government? This is what younger Mandela was doing...fighting a corrupt government which was basically enslaving his people IN THEIR OWN LAND!!!!

Where do people who consider him a monster come off, I mean really? It's worldwide, systematic racism. And I don't want to hear your "well the white man brought civilization to them" bullshosh because I would rather live in a mud hut with no electricity than live as the natives did in South Africa!

Are you honestly going to stereotype and characterize all whites as believing, supporting, and thinking the exact same thing? I understand what you are saying, that many people who want a revolution in this country to change things, has no problem with using violence as a means to do so, but not everyone feels the same. I see the hypocrisy but not everyone agrees with violence as a means to bring about change.

A TRIBUTE TO NELSON MANDELA
Try to look on the bright side of life.

reply to post by Taissa

Do you realize the more you talk against him and attack his methods (as what I can only assume is you claiming they were evil) and the more you promote happiness or relief at his death the more you promote his actual methods when he was young.

Even he did not like and was not proud of his methods in his youth. He rose above that.

If you feel he deserved death because of his youth than you are fundamentally no different than he used to be. He learned the error of his ways to promote love and forgiveness, can you?

If you imagine the people that started off being killed in retaliation were angels you are crazy. If you accept they were as evil as you portray Nelson Mandela and you do not support it you are a hypocrite.

The question is are you a hypocrite or are you crazy? Otherwise are you able to accept that a man rose above all the hatred to try and promote peace and love even though he never really experienced that in his life.

Taissa

DZAG Wright

Taissa

Advantage
We surely arent short on idols to idolize these days... regardless of their own actions or the fallout of their sycophants past, present and future actions.






.

I can understand why Obama idolizes him. Obama has no qualms with terrorizing other countries and it's citizens all for what? I do not idolize Mandela. My parents taught me the history of his past, when I came home from school one day with an assignment to write a term paper on him in the 8th grade. My dad was furious in fact, and asked the teacher to change my topic, then explained to me his reasoning why. My dad was concerned that I was being taught to see Mandela as a hero. Most everyone in America has been given a watered down version of Mandela's past.

edit on 7-12-2013 by Taissa because: (no reason given)

Did your dad illustrate the true story of America to you and are you proud of it? Are you familiar with the past treatment of American Natives and Blacks in America? Are you a patriot?

You, as everyone else, will not answer this because it will show your hypocracy...

Yes, I'm very familiar with Native American history, black history, etc, and not the public school version of it. There is nothing wrong with parents teaching their children proper history. My dad didn't support Mandela or his methods. Public school does not teach proper history, for blacks, natives, or just about anything for that fact.

LOL you still avoided answering!

How can you cheer for America's bloody history (and present), the men who killed so many in the name of Manifest Destiny, yet at the same time criminalize Mandela?