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Water Fluoridation will NOT kill you.

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posted on Dec, 6 2013 @ 12:27 PM
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AmenStop

superman2012

Jaxsprat
reply to post by superman2012
 


You are wrong people are not against fluoride they are against it In our drinking water


Why? Can you answer that without running to a website?

Yes easy answer. Because fluoride is a proven poisin that builds up in the body. It has NOT been shown to be safe for human consumption in any amount.

Stop lying to people about fluorides safety.

It builds up in the body? Were you here when we discussed that? How much accumulates in your body? How much water would you have to drink for the fluoride to build up into skeletal fluorosis? You would die from drinking too much water if you tried at one sitting. If you tried over time, you would have to wait close to 500 years.
It has NOT been shown to be harmful for human consumption at the levels in water fluoridation. It works both ways.




posted on Dec, 6 2013 @ 01:43 PM
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superman2012
reply to post by Rychwebo
 





I already know fluoride doesn't 'kill' you, just like small amounts of mycotoxins in our foods don't kill you, but they are certainly not making your health any better, they do quite the opposite, just in small amounts.

All available evidence points otherwise. You have studies done on water fluoridation that prove it to be harmful? I have not seen one. Fluoride is proven to aid in dental hygiene, what part of that are you disputing?

Edit: Just because you don't like my analogies, or don't understand them, does not make them a bad analogy. I tried to make it as simple as possible for you. Sorry that I can't think any more simply than that.

edit on 6-12-2013 by superman2012 because: (no reason given)


No your analogies just weren't analogous, from a viewpoint of someone who saw them with more understanding. They compared two very different things making them seem as if they were the same. You were going for too simple, so simple that you ignored the details of your comparative subjects. Salt = fluoride / bleach = fluoride. I don't see the comparison on a biological level. Unless you perhaps explained how fluoride plays a similar vital role like salt does, or showed me how bleach plays a vital role on the water's cleanliness as compared to fluoride. They just simply don't equate. I'm sorry for your misunderstanding and my understanding or your misunderstandings.

I may have missed it, but I haven't see positives for fluoride in your body, but I have seen negatives. So can you point out the positives, or somewhere that says it is essential for human life or performance? If the answer is no, why waste time supporting our exposure to it?

Here are just a few studies I pulled for the negative effects of fluoride.

Effects of fluoride on lipid peroxidation, DNA damage and apoptosis in human embryo hepatocytes

DNA damage, apoptosis and cell cycle changes induced by fluoride in rat oral mucosal cells and hepatocytes.

Studies on DNA damage and apoptosis in rat brain induced by fluoride

The most damaging thing I have been looking into is the presence of flouride AND aluminum in the body.


Czech researchers have shown that the body reacts to aluminum tetrafluoride as if it were a phosphate ion capable of triggering G proteins. G-proteins are water-soluble substances (i.e. hormones, neurotransmitters, and growth factors) that transmit messages from the outside to the inside of a cell.(177) Aluminum tetrafluoride is capable of switching on G proteins without hormones, neurotransmitters, or growth factors present.(178) 'This, notes Paul Connett, 'is the most worrisome aspect of fluoride subtle biochemistry." (179)



posted on Dec, 6 2013 @ 04:34 PM
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Rychwebo

superman2012
reply to post by Rychwebo
 





I already know fluoride doesn't 'kill' you, just like small amounts of mycotoxins in our foods don't kill you, but they are certainly not making your health any better, they do quite the opposite, just in small amounts.

All available evidence points otherwise. You have studies done on water fluoridation that prove it to be harmful? I have not seen one. Fluoride is proven to aid in dental hygiene, what part of that are you disputing?

Edit: Just because you don't like my analogies, or don't understand them, does not make them a bad analogy. I tried to make it as simple as possible for you. Sorry that I can't think any more simply than that.

edit on 6-12-2013 by superman2012 because: (no reason given)


No your analogies just weren't analogous, from a viewpoint of someone who saw them with more understanding. They compared two very different things making them seem as if they were the same. You were going for too simple, so simple that you ignored the details of your comparative subjects. Salt = fluoride / bleach = fluoride. I don't see the comparison on a biological level. Unless you perhaps explained how fluoride plays a similar vital role like salt does, or showed me how bleach plays a vital role on the water's cleanliness as compared to fluoride. They just simply don't equate. I'm sorry for your misunderstanding and my understanding or your misunderstandings.

I may have missed it, but I haven't see positives for fluoride in your body, but I have seen negatives. So can you point out the positives, or somewhere that says it is essential for human life or performance? If the answer is no, why waste time supporting our exposure to it?

Here are just a few studies I pulled for the negative effects of fluoride.

Effects of fluoride on lipid peroxidation, DNA damage and apoptosis in human embryo hepatocytes

DNA damage, apoptosis and cell cycle changes induced by fluoride in rat oral mucosal cells and hepatocytes.

Studies on DNA damage and apoptosis in rat brain induced by fluoride

The most damaging thing I have been looking into is the presence of flouride AND aluminum in the body.


Czech researchers have shown that the body reacts to aluminum tetrafluoride as if it were a phosphate ion capable of triggering G proteins. G-proteins are water-soluble substances (i.e. hormones, neurotransmitters, and growth factors) that transmit messages from the outside to the inside of a cell.(177) Aluminum tetrafluoride is capable of switching on G proteins without hormones, neurotransmitters, or growth factors present.(178) 'This, notes Paul Connett, 'is the most worrisome aspect of fluoride subtle biochemistry." (179)

I may have went to simple, but you are going way too deep with it.
Fluoride in large doses - shown to be harmful
Sodium Hypochlorite in large doses - shown to be harmful

with me so far? Pay attention to the message, not the chemistry.

All evidence points to water fluoridation to be beneficial.
All evidence points to sodium hypo in water to be beneficial.

One destroys bacteria that could harm you.
One aids in dental hygiene that left unchecked, could harm you.

There are plenty for the positives that I have listed throughout this thread with various links, etc. I will not be duplicating material in this thread just so that someone that refuses to read it thoroughly can have more links/studies/evidence/science that they will not read.


Edit: Essential to human life? Not that I have seen. But again, this just shows that you did not even read the first 3 posts in this thread saying that I was talking about the untruths and lies regarding fluoride. Have I ever stated it is essential to human life? I have said that it aids dental hygiene, and that I don't believe it to be harmful to anyone. As there are no studies proving that claim. Nor are there any people that have been shown to be harmed by properly dosed water fluoridation. No offence, but go back and read the thread.

edit on 6-12-2013 by superman2012 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 6 2013 @ 05:25 PM
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reply to post by superman2012
 





I may have went to simple, but you are going way too deep with it.


I like thinking deeply about things, it leaves little room for confusion and fallacies to creep in my head unnoticed. If I just accepted your analogies as true by their simplicity, then I would be ignoring all of their faults. If I accepted fluoride as healthy by the simplistic, on the surface arguments, then I would be ignoring all of the in depth information about fluoride's reactions in all areas of the body, down to the cellular level. Deny ignorance, you bet I will. I haven't exhausted all of the information out here, nor have you, so we are both ignoring all available data, but I have not ignored anti fluoride studies. If I find one of my bodies functions hindered, even slightly, by the presence of any substance, I may feel well, but I'm not as well as I could be. That is my end game, to be as well as possible. Not everybody cares, that's fine with me.


The rats were given fluoride in drinking water at the same level deemed "optimal" by pro-fluoridation groups, namely 1 part per million (1 ppm). Most pronounced damage was seen in animals that got the fluoride in conjunction with aluminum. The pathological changes found in the brain tissue of the animals were similar to the alterations found in the brains of people with Alzheimer's disease and dementia. The authors speculate that fluoride enables aluminum to cross the blood-brain barrier. These results are especially disturbing because of the low dose level of fluoride that shows the toxic effect in rats - rats are more resistant to fluoride than humans."


I linked to studies showing harmful effects by SCIENTISTS, should we let your scientist and mine battle to the death to see who wins?

I don't care to wage this endless argument. I am for total human optimization, nobody should have to CURE tooth problems with the addition of non essential toxic chemicals. I'm on the side of peak performance, the best possible health possible, not just getting through life. So I am on the side of science when it comes to fluorides effects, its not fluoride on its own that causes harm, and its not even the harms it does to bones and teeth, its the messing with hormones and your optimal health that concerns me.

For now we will just have to agree to disagree, fluoride is non essential, ergo potentially a risk and proven to be unsafe in humans and rats. I didnt even explore all the risks, but i provided links to some, and you disregarded them with ignorance and ease. Salt is essential ergo, a benefit. My teeth don't need fluoride to be healthy, I just have to be healthy to have healthy teeth. Prevention is always better than cure, as with all medication, there are side effects, even if you aren't aware of them.

You are fine with slightly poisoning yourself, even if you don't believe you're doing it, and I prefer not to have my electrical and chemical systems inhibited by something that allow increased odds for; dental fluorosis, aluminum to pass through the blood brain barrier, thyroid uptake of non essential molecules, whereby allowing essential iodine to pass by. Its not just fluoride alone, just like a pile of guns and ammo are harmless, but throwing humans in the mix is asking for trouble. The system we have evolved doesn't need fluoride, gluten, trams fats, or many other things, we will need about 50,000 more years to adapt to these new substances. For now, my paleo ancestors dictated my DNA and methylation of my DNA wouldn't be so successful with an uptake of fluoride being in everything that contains water. I'll listen to my DNA more than some guy that wishes to dictate the direction my DNA should go. I'd prefer to be a ruler than to be quelled by an authoritarian. You drink your fluoride with your healthy teeth, and I'll continue to avoid fluoride with my healthy teeth. I think xylitol has more benefits for your teeth anyways:


Xylitol is a “tooth-friendly”, nonfermentable sugar alcohol.[18][19] It appears to have more dental health benefits than other polyalcohols.[20] The structure of xylitol contains a tridentate ligand, (H-C-OH)3 that can rearrange with polyvalent cations like Ca2+. This interaction allows Ca2+ to be transported through the gut wall barrier and through saliva may remineralize enamel before dental caries form.[21] Early studies from Finland in the 1970s found compared to chewing sucrose-flavored gum, xylitol resulted in nearly two fewer cavities or missing teeth.[22] Cavity-causing bacteria prefer six-carbon sugars or disaccharides, while xylitol is non-fermentable and cannot be used as an energy source, interfering with bacterial growth and reproduction. The harmful micro-organisms are starved in the presence of xylitol, allowing the mouth to remineralize damaged teeth with less interruption. This same property renders it unsuitable for making bread as it interferes with the ability of yeast to digest sugars.[21] At least six grams of xylitol per day is thought to be needed for dental efficacy.[21] Xylitol also inhibits the growth of Streptococcus pneumoniae, as well as the attachment of Haemophilus influenzae on the nasopharyngeal cells.[21]


So what's your opinion of adding xylitol to drinking water instead? I mean it aids in oral hygiene, and considered a food instead of a poison. So what's with supporting old habits, have you tried solutions of problems instead of being in support of old ways of thinking. If your in denial of healthier ways to handle water, then I'm sorry for you. If you feel as if there are possibly healthier ways, use your energy to find new solutions instead of using your energy to support the ideas ALCOA would want you to have. I'm sure all of these arguments/studies are nothing to sway you, you are just as stubborn as I am apparently, I'm still on the fence, but I can't ignore studies that show negative effects either. Kinda makes me think.
edit on 6-12-2013 by Rychwebo because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 6 2013 @ 06:31 PM
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reply to post by Rychwebo
 




For now we will just have to agree to disagree, fluoride is non essential, ergo potentially a risk and proven to be unsafe in humans and rats.

Agreed.
It has not been PROVEN unsafe in humans in water fluoridation levels...which is what this thread is about. I don't give a rats ass about...well...rats.



posted on Dec, 6 2013 @ 07:28 PM
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reply to post by superman2012
 


This is as funny as any of the 9/11 threads about no inside job.

I am so glad that I can continuously be greater without fluoride or any of these other substances being ingested into my body, and certainly do not mind going the extra mile to rid myself of all the things that make others such easy, boring sheep.

But a day will come, and extremely soon, when you yourself will degrade just a bit further, but no one will be left to fix things.

We know you do not care, and we thank you for making such a hilarious thread, about how dosages of a poison that never occurs in nature can be "properly dosed" by some strange new set of rules that appeared , in the last century.

Surely it has no bearing on the incredible amount of new problems in health that have reared there heads over the last 60 years, and the fact no one wants to do a double blind study on something so beneficial, well that is just normal.

I guess we will just have to grin and bear it, while those who are so damaged on a DNA level tell us how science should work, until everything is totally lost...WRONG.

You just make it easier and better for us when we win, Thanks!



posted on Dec, 6 2013 @ 07:42 PM
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superman2012
reply to post by Rychwebo
 




For now we will just have to agree to disagree, fluoride is non essential, ergo potentially a risk and proven to be unsafe in humans and rats.

Agreed.
It has not been PROVEN unsafe in humans in water fluoridation levels...which is what this thread is about. I don't give a rats ass about...well...rats.


I have been trying to figure out your motivation.

Are you trying to protect your fellow man from the scourage of dental caries and you honestly buy into fluoride as the solution?

With the science being un proven, and fluoridation sold as a proven fact. Which we both agree has not happened, thereby making the sale a fraudulent one, if your true motivation was to protect your fellow man in any way you would not be for the mass dumping of a substance that has proven negative effects, I mean it is rat poison and no proven positive effect at your own admission. You did say that there have been no true scientific double blind studies proving the safety of rat poison as a dental caries solution.

So then it seems your motivation is to push the corporate line? For the profit of the chemical corporations over the safety of the general public. I just can not figure out why a flesh and blood man, would want to defend corporate profit over public health?
edit on 6-12-2013 by AmenStop because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 6 2013 @ 07:52 PM
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AmenStop

superman2012
reply to post by Rychwebo
 




For now we will just have to agree to disagree, fluoride is non essential, ergo potentially a risk and proven to be unsafe in humans and rats.

Agreed.
It has not been PROVEN unsafe in humans in water fluoridation levels...which is what this thread is about. I don't give a rats ass about...well...rats.


I have been trying to figure out your motivation.

Are you trying to protect your fellow man from the scourage of dental caries and you honestly buy into fluoride as solution?

With the science being un proven, and fluoridation sold as a proven fact. Which we both agree has not happened, thereby making the sale a fraudulent one, if your true motivation was to protect your fellow man in any way you would not be for the mass dumping of a substance that has proven negative effects, I mean it is rat poison and no proven positive effect at your own admission. You did say that there have been no true scientific double blind studies proving the safety of rat poison as a dental caries solution.

So then it seems your motivation is to push the corporate line? For the profit of the chemical corporations over the safety of the general public. I just can not figure out why a flesh and blood man, would want to defend corporate profit over public health?
edit on 6-12-2013 by AmenStop because: (no reason given)


I speculate its just to be right about something, no matter the cost.



posted on Dec, 6 2013 @ 08:25 PM
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The problem is

#1 flouridation is unnecessary.

#2 sodium flouride can not provide organic flouride as found in natural springs. That would be like eating rust (iron oxide) in order to provide your body with the organic mineral iron. DOESN'T WORK LIKE THAT.

#3 Why on earth would you have a sprayer system spraying a POISONOUS chemical into our drinking water??? Do you know how often industrial mixing equipment fails or functions incorrectly??? Our gasoline is supposed to be MAXIMUM 10% ethanol, but I have seen tests at dealerships showing over 90% ethanol. Shell had a big screwup a few years back and ended up paying out to replace a lot of failed fuel pumps and other fuel system parts (concentrated ethanol is very harsh on many rubber seals and other parts).

So what do you say we put cyanide sprayers into the water supply also (organic cyanide is found in many vegetables) and we'll just keep the concentration very low, and hope the machines never malfunction and overdose a whole city with poison.

That's the same argument as the flouride one.

Most western nations don't flouridate their water supply for a VERY good reason.



posted on Dec, 6 2013 @ 09:42 PM
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Now let us consider the reasons why they should keep fluoridating the water:

1. A toxic waste that cost industries money to dispose of can now be sold to government for profit.

2. Other industries will also benefit such as the US medical system [considered one of the most expense in the world and rated quite low world-wide] who will have more diseases such as cancer to treat and therefor greater profits.

3. There is no risk to the dental profession as if anything dentists are doing better than ever and probably because of fluoride have as much if not more cavities and rotting teeth to treat than ever. So you don't have to worry about your dentist unless he wants to give you a sliver [mercury amalgam] filling, or especially if he has to pull a tooth which has one in your mouth as by law it must be disposed of as a toxic waste.

4. Adding flouride to the water increases the toxicity of the environment and even if it won't kill you directly it can work synergisticaly with other toxins. and reduce the human life span or at least help the American medical industry to make more money.

5. Politicians are probably getting big rewards [kickbacks] from industry to avoid doing anything to jeopardize the status quo when it comes to fluoride so you can see how it is helping to keep your politicians fat and happy.

So why be so cynical people? If the government says its alright to fluoridate the water they know what is best for you just accept it - or buy bottled water instead and you can contribute to another industry instead.

FLUORIDE THE MIRACLE DRUG OF CRONY CAPITALISM !



posted on Dec, 6 2013 @ 09:48 PM
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reply to post by superman2012
 


Takin .2 micro grams of rat poison everyday won't kill you either.

Doesn't mean you should ingest the stuff.

My city became the FIRST in Canada to remove Fluoride from the water supply. They'll be doing research studies through the Universities here about it's effects on the population over the next 5 years.

I guess we'll know then.

Either way, the fluoride that was being used in our city was industrial grade, scrapped out of smoke stacks, since it is a industrial bi-product.

SO, yeah. I'm against water fluoridation, because if you actually take care of your mouth, the daily routine is plenty enough to keep your mouth healthy, without the need of the nanny state forcing what amounts to medication down my throat.

~Tenth
edit on 12/6/2013 by tothetenthpower because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 6 2013 @ 09:53 PM
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reply to post by tothetenthpower
 


All covered. Studies have been done. Still your choice. As stated in the beginning (and even underlined) this isn't about the issue of forced "medication". This is about the untruths and outright lies being repeated by scared people.
edit on 6-12-2013 by superman2012 because: your, not you



posted on Dec, 6 2013 @ 09:57 PM
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reply to post by Rychwebo
 

Suspect all you want. I have typed it in plain English for people to read over and study. All I have been refuting is the garbage science that frightened people have been spouting.

It is absolutely a persons choice to either be scared of something they don't understand, or do research into it and come to their own conclusion.

If you (for whatever reason) don't believe me because I am fully in support of water fluoridation and have seen ZERO science/studies or evidence supporting the "claim" that it is not beneficial, then read over RickyMouse's posts. His conclusions are more science supported than any in your camp, the "I don't believe it because I don't want to believe it" group.



posted on Dec, 6 2013 @ 10:46 PM
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Being relatively new to this whole debate I would like to thank you for making this thread, the replies I have read from others along with your logic has helped me plant my feet firmly in the ANTI crowd.
From what I have read I have seen no fear from anyone on the anti side (on ATS) concern over being force fed something we don't need but not fear, your sproutings of stop being scared of what you don't know really needs to be said into a mirror. I was once settled on your side where I willingly believed people because of their age, place in society or level of education.
Over the last couple days I have done my own reading and come to my own conclusion that it does not NEED to be there full stop .

I still believe you are not seeing the whole picture though, you believe that if it hasn't been shown to be harmful then all is hunky dory, you are forgetting that every individual is different from their consumption to their body make up to their metabolism and that there is an increased risk of over exposure when you add it to tap water

Would you say how old you are? It may help me understand your way of thinking.



posted on Dec, 6 2013 @ 11:35 PM
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reply to post by superman2012
 


The concentration of Sodium Fluoride in the bottom of the test tubes used for blood pathology is very high and is designed to preserve the blood for testing. It is not designed for re-injection into people, where it would likely kill them.

Many medicines are highly concentrated and would be too hard to administer controlled doses at high concentration, so they are diluted (with water) to make dosage easier and more accurate. I would go as far as saying that we all have had water injected into us at some stage in our life. Though, I must confess, I'm not sure of what you are getting at by your comment about injecting water?

As a diabetic myself, I am acutely aware of the roller-coaster of going from hyperglycemia (too much sugar) to hypoglycemia (too little sugar) that occurs because normal endocrine regulation of sugars is non functional. Neither are good for my long term health and neither are pleasant.

Please research into Thrombin and its inhibitory effect on Insulin and also note that minute amounts of Fluoride (like the small amounts provided in our water) increases the effect of Thrombin.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...



posted on Dec, 6 2013 @ 11:42 PM
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tothetenthpower
reply to post by superman2012
 


Takin .2 micro grams of rat poison everyday won't kill you either.

Doesn't mean you should ingest the stuff.

~Tenth
edit on 12/6/2013 by tothetenthpower because: (no reason given)


Tell that to the millions of people who are on Warfarin as a blood thinner.

To OP: just forget it, man. This site's thrown all pretense of rational thought and science out the window lately, it's disgusting.



posted on Dec, 6 2013 @ 11:54 PM
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Omg really? This is a 60s thing. It stops tooth decay, it's not a Russian plot



posted on Dec, 7 2013 @ 01:07 AM
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ShadeWolf

tothetenthpower
reply to post by superman2012
 


Takin .2 micro grams of rat poison everyday won't kill you either.

Doesn't mean you should ingest the stuff.

~Tenth
edit on 12/6/2013 by tothetenthpower because: (no reason given)


Tell that to the millions of people who are on Warfarin as a blood thinner.

To OP: just forget it, man. This site's thrown all pretense of rational thought and science out the window lately, it's disgusting.


They NEED the blood thinners or they will die , Warfarin is not in the tap water



posted on Dec, 7 2013 @ 08:02 AM
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Drinking Fluoride for your teeth makes as much sense as drinking Sunscreen for your skin.

If it's to fix a topical problem, tooth decay, then why are we ingesting it internally and saturating our bodies with it?
edit on 7-12-2013 by Konduit because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 7 2013 @ 10:24 AM
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I feel bad for you Superman. You laid out a great thread with facts which were cited and give a great argument, yet you still have to argue with people about it with every "what if" situation they can think of.

I may be wrong, but I thought water fluoridation was to help keep the water clean. Bacteria is eventually going to get in the water somewhere with the huge grid of water networks throughout the country (and world).

My only question is how often are they checking the fluoride levels in the water and how stable is it/ does it change constantly? I figure 3rd world countries and lower tech ones may have problems with this.

Ps- and for all those who keep complaining about the end of the world being in the water, stop drinking it. Quit your complaining and do something about it. Bunch o' whiners
edit on 7-12-2013 by ArnoldNonymous because: (no reason given)



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