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Ravenna Revisited - The Portage County Police UFO Chase.

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posted on Dec, 4 2013 @ 05:22 PM

"It went PSSSSSHHEW, straight up; and I mean when it went up, friend, it didn't play no games; it went straight up."

Police Officer Dale Spaur

Was asked by a good friend a while back to create a new thread on this case and review all the defunct info/image links and condense all the info back into one OP -I realize most researchers on here will be aware of the basic facts but for those who haven't read about it then the incident really is a fascinating one involving an 86 mile police car UFO chase, multiple separately located witnesses, close range object descriptions and a highly questionable government investigation and version of events -it's also interesting to note the unknown object was reported to be 'putting out light beams', performing highly unusual flight characteristics and emitting a buzzing or humming noise which went up in pitch as the object accelerated.

Back in 1966 the case caused a huge amount of media coverage so it's a bit of a mystery as to why so many people outside UFO research haven't even heard of it today but it is worth pointing out that the events were the inspiration for Stephen Spielberg's police car UFO chase at the beginning of classic film 'Close Encounters of the Third Kind' -it's probably also worth mentioning that despite the incident being one of the most intriguing UFO cases in the last 50 years (IMHO) the Colorado Committee's Dr Condon willfully ignored it and elected to omit it from his own report (along with a great many other unexplained police/pilot UFO cases).

Due to the huge amount of info out there about the case will try to give an ongoing sequence of events with quotes from relevant links in each section -the aftermath; the way the police witnesses were treated and the way the USAF conducted itself (and attempted to debunk the incident without even consulting its own scientific consultant) would make a thread in itself so the thread might be a bit of a big one but hopefully worth it as the true nature of the object involved still remains extremely controversial.

The Chase:

News Article:

Full image

The sightings occurred on April 17th, 1966 with the first report actually coming in from a female civilian witness in Summit County, Ohio who described a brightly lit object 'as big as a house but too low to be a plane' flying over her neighborhood (apparently police officers in patrol cars laughed about it) but then later on two other officers, Dale Spaur and Wilbur Neff also witnessed a very strange object coming over the treeline of a hill whilst investigating an abandoned car on Route 224 near Ravenna.

According to the officers the object then came from the South and hovered directly over their patrol car, illuminating the immediate area with an intense light making it 'as bright as day' -they also stated the car's head-lights 'did not make nearly as much light as the object did' and also that it was 'like looking at a welder's torch'.

* The report also states that another Deputy Sheriff situated on the other side of the hill in Atwater also witnessed the UFO over the treeline in the direction of Spaur and Neff but unfortunately wanted to remain anonymous (considering what happened I can't really blame him).

As they checked the car, Spaur noticed something rising out of the woods behind them:

"I always look behind me so no one can come up behind me. And when I looked in this wooded area behind us, I saw this thing.... As it came over the trees, I looked at Barney and he was still watching the car.. and he didn't say nothing and the thing kept getting brighter and the area started to get light..."
The object was about fifty feet in diameter, with a bright, well-defined light beam shining down from the bottom.
"When Barney Neff saw the object he just stood there with his mouth open for a minute as bright as it was, and he looked down. And I started looking down and I looked at my hands and my clothes weren't burning or anything, when it stopped right over on top of us. The only thing, the only sound in the whole area was a hum... like a transformer being loaded or an overloaded transformer when it changes..."
"I was petrified, and, uh, so I moved my right foot, and everything seemed to work all right. And evidently he made the same decision I did, to get something between me and it, or us and it, or whatever you would say. So we both went for the car, we got in the car and we sat there..."

As it mentions above, the two officers then got to their patrol car and radioed in a report, they were then instructed to pursue the object by Sergeant Schoenfelt (who was trying to get a 'photo unit' to the scene) which they did at speeds ranging up to 100 mph whilst constantly reporting their position to other squad cars from different jurisdictions.

It's stated several other officers also witnessed the UFO and joined in the chase, a good example being Officer H. Wayne Huston who saw the object being pursued by Spar and Neff's sheriff's cruiser and joined in 'bumper to bumper'.

Spear and Neff turned south on Route 183, then back east on Route 224, which placed the object to their right, and out the left window. "At this time,” said Spaur. "it came straight south, just one motion, buddy, just a smooth glide . . ." and began moving east with them pacing it, just to their right at an estimated altitude of 300-500 feet, illuminating the ground beneath it. Once more the UFO darted to the north, now left of the car, and they sped up to over 100 mph to keep pace with it.
As the sky became brighter with predawn light, Spaur and Neff saw the UFO in silhouette, with a vertical projection at its rear. The object began to take on a metallic appearance as the chase continued. Spaur kept up a running conversation with other police cars that were trying to catch up with them. Once when they made a wrong turn at an intersection, the object stopped, then turned and came back to their position.
Police Officer Wayne Huston of East Palestine, Ohio, situated near the Pennsylvania border, had been monitoring the radio broadcasts and was parked at an intersection he knew the Portage County officers would he passing soon. Shortly afterward he saw the UFO pass by with the sheriff's cruiser in hot pursuit. He swung out and joined the chase.

Officer Huston:

As they approached Unity, Ohio, East Palestine patrol-man Wayne Huston drove to the edge of Route 14 and waited to see if he could observe the subject of the last quarter hour of excited radio traffic. In the northwest he saw a light approaching that quickly took on detail and flew almost straight overhead about 900 feet up, going over 80 miles an hour. Huston later described it as a flattened ice cream cone, a dark dome-like top and a cone shaped light from a bright bottom. The light looked like a focused beam in smoke or fog would look, and it was tilted to the rear of the object's direction of travel.

posted on Dec, 4 2013 @ 05:23 PM
The chase then continued 86 miles from Randolph to just across the state line into Pennsylvania and, as well as police reports of the UFO moving from side to side above the road, changing its speed and gaining or losing altitude, there's also this strange account describing how the object 'came down and waited near a bridge' for the pursuing police officers.

Spaur said the lines of the object were very distinct, "Someone had control over it" he said. It wasn't just floating around. It can maneuver."

The deputy said the chase slowed down near Rochester Pa., when the cars "got tangled up in a mess of bridges. But when I came out from under the bridge it came down and waited for us, just as though it knew these two cars were following it."

"I know nobody's going to believe it, but it's true" he said


At one point, said Spaur, they made a wrong turn at some bridges. When they got back on the right road the object was there -leading them. "IT DROPPED to an altitude of 500 feet and stopped and waited for us when we got tangled up. When we got on the road again, it started moving again,” Spaur said.

Pennsylvania police officer Frank Panzenella also witnessed the object which he at first thought was 'an airplane on fire'.

He parked at the Atlantic station and got out. The object had hovered not too far away. It had an outline like a football cut in half along its length, and the flat bottom was all lit up—Panzanella thought he had seen individual lights around the bottom rear when it passed nearby—and an antenna-like projection at the rear. A penny held at arm's length would not have covered it

It's also stated in the reports that when Deputy Spaur and Neff's police cruiser got low on fuel (they actually had to borrow petrol to get back home) they then pulled over to enlist the help of Officer Panzenella -the UFO also stopped and was witnessed by the officers hovering above Harmony Township at approximate altitude of 1,000 feet before 'shooting straight up' to an approximate altitude of 3,500 feet.

There is speculation that the vertical ascent of the UFO was due to incoming jet aircraft scrambled to pursue the object and it's also stated the officers could actually see the planes coming into the area yet the U.S. Government denies any such action took place.

Also relevant is the report that the officers did hear dispatch traffic on their police radio concerning the aircraft scramble and a notation was entered in the records of Columbiana County radio log stating that "P-13 contacted a Pittsburgh PD unit and they scrambled some jets, that flew under the object."

Police Officer Spar:

According to Spaur, as the four officers stood and watched the UFO, which had stopped and was hovering, there was traffic on the radio about jets being scrambled to chase the UFO, and "... we could see these planes coming in... When they started talking about fighter planes, it was just as if that thing heard every word that was said; it went PSSSSSHHEW, straight up; and I mean when it went up, friend, it didn't play no games; it went straight up”

Police Officer Frank Panzenella:

"The object was the shape of half a football, was very bright and about 25 to 35 feet in diameter.... The object continued to go upward until it got as small as a ballpoint pen. Relative to the moon, the object was quite distant and to the left of the moon. We all four watched the object shoot straight up and disappear."

Though Neff, Spaur, Huston and Panzanella asserted that they'd heard radio confirmation that the UFO was tracked by radar at the GPA, officials at the airport would deny that such an event had ever occurred, and that such a statement had been made via radio

Also some other possible witnesses to the radio traffic:

On April 27 and 28 I visited several state police, sheriffs' offices, and city police radio stations in eastern Ohio, to see if their operators had anything to offer. I got an intriguing report at the Salem, Ohio, police station, from officers Ray Esterly, Lonnie Johnson, Lt. Richard Whinnery, and radio operator Jack Cramer, all of whom had heard the radio traffic on the 17th. Esterly and Johnson, on a hill in Salem, had seen three jet planes apparently chasing a bright object, in the direction in which the deputies were traveling. At the same time, Cramer and Whinnery, in the police station, heard what they believed to be the voice of a pilot, over the radio. "I'm going down for a closer look. . . . It's about 45 feet across, and it's trailing something "

There were also reports of an NBC afternoon news broadcast on Monday, April 18th, 1966 which stated that a jet trainer with the 459th Troop Carrier Wing (Youngstown AFR) flew near the UFO and heard a humming noise but can't seem to find out any more info about that (if anyone knows any please post).

Below is the relevant government document denying the scramble and also a relevant paragraph from the APRO Bulletin May 1966 edition stating press reports about the Air Force Reserve pilots were withdrawn.

"Press reports first quoted unidentified Air Force Reserve pilots at Youngstown, who reportedly said they had attempted to chase the object but its 100-mile-per hour speed was too slow for their jet trainers. Later these reports were withdrawn when AF officials at Youngstown said no planes were scrambled."

APRO Bulletin, May 1966

posted on Dec, 4 2013 @ 05:23 PM
Other Witnesses:

By the time the 86 mile chase was over it was being reported that 'hundreds' of civilians in two states had witnessed the UFO and that it was 'reported by at least six or seven other police departments in Ohio' -it's also mentioned that the radio dispatcher even suggested the police officers open fire on the object and that the two main deputies involved wore out two new sets of tires chasing it.

As well as info about other police/civilian witnesses there are also news articles below and the first one contains details of another sighting by Police Chief Buchert who was situated in Mantua (18 miles northwest of the spot on Route 224) and a possible photograph he captured of the object.

News Articles:

Hundreds Of Ohio People See UFO

Hundreds of persons in both states reported seeing the 'brilliant and shiny' object early Sunday morning.


Two Ohio Deputies Chase Flying Saucer

First Hand Info On UFO

Chief Saw The Saucer And Got The Picture

UFO Chased Into County

Patrolman Huston:

By now, police officers in three counties had overhead the radio discussion of the UFO chase. Patrolman H. Wayne Huston (of East Palestine, Ohio) realized that Spaur and Neff were traveling in his direction. Via radio, he told Spaur and Neff that he would join the pursuit. The police officers asserted that the object was usually one-half to three-quarters of a mile ahead of them.

Huston would later describe the object as initially appearing from a distance to be somewhat conical in shape -- resembling a flattened ice cream cone due to the beam of light shining from its underside (the "ice cream cone" description was echoed in Close Encounters).

Officer Kwaianowski:

Just before Panzanella caught up to Neff and Spaur, he spoke on the radio to Patrolman Henry Kwaianowski of Economy Borough. Kwaianowski insisted that, for two or three minutes, he had observed a metallic, football shaped object at the same altitude as two passenger jets.

Officers Johnson and Esterly:

Two Salem, Ohio police officers, (Lonny Johnson and Ray Esterly) had overheard the radio traffic, and suspected that, given its direction of travel, the UFO might pass over Salem.

After looking in the directions reported by the other officers on the police radios, Johnson and Esterly say they spotted the object shortly after 5:30 a.m. They said the object was at between one and three miles away from them, and at about 10,000 feet, at the same altitude as a passenger jet. They claim that they saw two smaller jets approaching the UFO from about 10 miles away. They radioed their observations as they occurred, then when the UFO and the three jets disappeared from view, Johnson and Esterly returned to their headquarters.

Other Civilian Witnesses:

Several civilians claimed to have seen the same or a similar object on the day of the UFO chase. Most of these claims were reported in local newspapers. Some of them were interviewed by NICAP members, but none of the witnesses were known to have been interviewed by U.S. Air Force investigators.

In Benton Harbor in extreme southwestern Michigan, in the early morning hours of April 17, three garbage men making their daily rounds reported seeing an unusual object hovering over a hotel and emitting a light so bright that they insisted they "couldn't look straight at it." (Clark, 457) They notified police, who arrived in time to see the object shortly before it flew away.

Sometime between 5.00 and 5.30 a.m., two couples together in a car driving near New Castle, Pennsylvania reported seeing a bright light moving in the sky. Initially thinking that it was a reflection from an airplane, they stopped the car to get a better look. The object stopped when their car stopped. They quickly became convinced that it was no normal aircraft, due to its shape, which one witness described as resembling an "ice cream cone" (though another witness thought it looked more like a "hamburger" (Clark, 457). The object began to move again, and the witnesses followed it in their car for a few minutes before the object accelerated out of view. This account received very sketchy reportage, with the witnesses unsure of the precise time they saw the object. Clark noted that some interpreted this encounter as a second UFO in the same area, though he also notes that, without a firmly-established timeline, this interpretation is speculative.

Thelma James of Newton Falls, Ohio claimed to have seen an unusual aerial object. She had woken at about 3:50 a.m., and unable to sleep, looked out her bedroom window. She saw a bright light slowly ascending in the sky. Clark notes that this was almost certainly the planet Venus, which, from James's perspective, would have risen above the horizon at 3:35 a.m. However, at about 5:15 a.m., Jones noted that a second light, much brighter than the first, had also appeared in the sky, but closer to the horizon, and to the southeast of Venus. This second light seemed to be crescent shaped, and was a very bright yellow color. It continued moving through the sky and was lost to Jones's view at about 5:30 a.m. James's observations match some of the observations made by the police officers in the UFO chase. Clark writes, " is unfortunate that none of the investigators interviewed this witness, who saw both Venus and the UFO--in defiance of those who would soon insist that the two were one."


edit on 8-9-2016 by karl 12 because: (no reason given)

posted on Dec, 4 2013 @ 05:24 PM
Object description:

As well as the police statements above describing the UFO as 'the shape of half a football' and 'a flattened ice cream cone' there are also some other sketches and testimony about the object below -probably the most intriguing description is from the police officers where they state the UFO was "about 50 feet across and 15 to 20 feet high with a large dome on its top and an antenna jutted out from the rear of the dome" but the general consensus does seem to be some sort of large, dome shaped, metallic object projecting a type of cone-shaped light underneath (Chief Buchert also stated the object he saw was like 'two table saucers put together').



1. Projection, tilted from rear (trailing edge) 18' long, tapered to to tip

2. Dome-shaped top; partly metallic, partly self-illuminated

3. Glowing front (leading edge)

4. Cone-shaped light underneath

5. Glowing tip of trailing edge

6. Metallic surface

7. Sharp "drop-off" (Neff disagrees; remembers more rounded here)

8. Rounded "undercarriage"

9. Line separating metallic from self-illuminated portions


1. Bright spot to right of moon, a little above axis of symmetry of crescent

2. Crescent moon (bump in concave portion indicates "nose" of "Man in Moon")

3. TV antenna on nearby house, through whose elements Spaur and Neff saw the
UFO hovering before 1st upward elevation

4. Position of UFO after 1st elevation, above moon (now moving away, or disappearing)

(NOTE: Panzanella agreed with relative positions of levels of hovering; Spaur agreed with Panzanella's on-the-spot location of object relative to nearby houses; Spaur examined a photograph made from the spot he claimed to have been standing.)


1. Cone-shaped light underneath

2. Bright, self-illuminated solid appearing top

3. Dome shape

4. Cone tilted toward rear, of direction of motion, more so than shown here.

(NOTE: Huston testified to having seen, once, a project; only got one view of it.)

In this statement made (or shouted) by Deputy Spaur via his patrol car microphone to the radio dispatcher he goes into more detail about the light beam -it was also stated that the light from the object was so bright the officers 'could have driven without their own lights being on':

"It's about fifty feet across, and I can just make out a dome or something on the top, but that's very dark. The bottom is real bright; it's putting out a beam of light that makes a big spot underneath. It's like it's sitting on the beam. It was overhead a minute ago, and it was as bright as day here: Our headlights didn't make nearly as much light as it did. And this is no helicopter or anything like that; it's perfectly still and it just makes a humming noise."

Also here near the end of the pursuit:

The light it gave off lit up the ground over the road and over fields as we pursued it. At first it was about 150 feet up; then it rose to around 1000 feet. During the chase it changed altitude and direction, maneuvered smoothly, had a sort of dome-shaped top, and at times showed a projection on the top part, near the trailing edge. Not all of it was self-illuminated; part of the top trailing portion looked metallic; not shiny, but satiny. At times we measured its speed over the ground at about 103 miles per hour.

Also some comments here made about the size of the object:

One of his responses really drove home the enormous size of the object, and the seriousness of Spaur's reaction. "Suppose you held your arm out straight," I asked, "and pretended you were holding the object between your thumb and forefinger. In other words, how big was the image of the object, at arm's length?" "Hell," Spaur said, mustering a weary chuckle, "I'd have to hold both arms up!

posted on Dec, 4 2013 @ 05:25 PM
Weitzel Investigation:

William B. Weitzel was the former Chairman of NICAP Pennsylvania Investigative Subcommittee during the 1960's and I think it's got to be said he did a pretty thorough job of investigating this case -it's also been said that if a person want a comprehensive version of events then his report containing the taped interviews, witness sketches, signed statements etc. is a good place to start and his letter to Professor William Powers of Dearborn Observatory also does a great job of summing things up.


William B. Weitzel conducted an exhaustive investigation on behalf of the National Investigations Committee On Aerial Phenomena (NICAP), obtaining taped interviews, signed statements, sketches, and all pertinent data which was assembled into a massive report that was made available to congressional investigators.


William Weitzel letter to Professor William Powers, Dearborn Observatory

William B. Weitzel's letter to Professor William Powers - Page 1 / 2 / 3 / 4 / 5

Taped Interview (courtesy of Easynow):

Part 1:

Part 2:

Statement Documents:

Wayne Huston's written report

William Aker's written report

Patrolman Frank Panzanella's typed report

Deputy Sheriff Dale F. Spaur and Posse Member W. L. Neff written statement

Also some really interesting commentary and another witness sketch showing the size and context of the UFO out of the patrol car windscreen in the 'William B. Weitzel Report' file below -it contains some truly detailed information about this case and also quotes some pretty freaky examples of the discussion the Police Officers were having with Radio Dispatch Deputies Robert Wilson and John Bieghey during the pursuit (nearly shooting at the object, nearly crashing the car, possible radar confirmation etc.):

"It's a monster":

"P-13, Dale, do you have your 44 Magnum with you?" "I do," Spaur replied. "Take a shot at it!" Wilson suggested. Spaur thought this over briefly. From what he had seen so far, he was impressed, and didn't want to risk irritating the object. It was as big as a house, and looked quite solid. It could easily come back and settle on the car, squashing it like an egg. "I don't think I want to do that," he radioed back, and repeated his description of the object. "Listen, Bob," he added, "this thing's a monster! It's like looking down the middle of hell!"

Near Crash:

At the intersection of Routes 14 and 146, the object made a 100° turn to the left, going in the direction of Route 14. Spaur made an abrupt turn to follow it, and the cruiser slipped in some gravel. Spaur's racing experience paid off. He got the car back on the road, and headed east after the object. "Dale," Neff said, "we nearly turned over!" "Yeah," said Spaur, "can't you just see the obituary? 'Racked up while pursuing a flying saucer.' Barney, when are we gonna get some help on this?" Neff didn't answer. He had his head pressed up against the windshield, looking almost straight up at the object, which had elevated and slowed down "for them."

Commercial Airliner and Radar Confirmation

Again the object moved, this time straight up, and hovered again. A large commercial airliner, United Airlines flight 454 on route to Buffalo, N. Y., flew under the object. "Someone on that plane is bound to see it," Neff said. Panzanella walked to his cruiser, still watching, and called the Rochester base radio station, which serves several surrounding communities, including Conway. He asked the radio operator, John Bieghey, to call the airport, to see if anything was on the radar screen there, and to contact the pilot of the plane. He gave a description of the object and asked if any interceptor planes could be sent up. Bieghey did this, and called Panzanella back. "They've got it on radar, and are sending two up!" By coincidence, just as the planes were mentioned, the object accelerated upwards and shot straight out of sight.

William Weitzel is a philosophy instructor at the University of Pittsburgh in Bradford, Pa., and chairman of the local NICAP investigative sub-committee. In the latter capacity he has covered, examined and reported on the most significant sightings in his area. He considers the Ravenna sighting to be one of the most provocative, interesting and frustrating experiences on record and has dedicated a major portion of the past year to documenting all of its devious aspects and trying to obtain a solid explanation for what occurred and what was seen. This is his report:

Into the Middle Of Hell (PDF File)

posted on Dec, 4 2013 @ 05:25 PM
The Condon Report:

As it mentions in the first post William B. Weitzel's full report about the events of April 17th, 1966 were personally hand delivered to Dr. Edward U. Condon by NICAP's Richard Hall, apparently it was 'a huge case file' which Hall described as 'a model of thorough investigation and documentation' - the Condon Report published two years later doesn't even mention the case.

When the UNIVERSITY OF COLORADO UFO PROJECT was initiated in 1966, a copy of Weitzel’s report was hand-delivered to the director, Dr. Edward U. CONDON, for his consideration. The CONDON REPORT, published two years later, does not mention the case.

NICAP Case Report by Richard Hall


"I personally hand-carried and delivered to Dr. Condon a thick investigation report on the April 17, 1966, Portage County, Ohio, case prepared by William Weitzel. Police in several different jurisdictions had chased a low-level structured object that was emitting a beam of light down to the road. They chased it into Pennsylvania at high speed, and watched as it accelerated upward and disappeared into the star field background.

It was an impressive case that had caused a stir in Congress, and Weitzel's report was a model of thorough investigation and documentation. When the Condon Committee report was released two years later, I was astonished to find that there was no mention of the case at all. I never learned whether Condon had shared the report with the project staff. It had never occurred to me that he would simply ignore it."

The Quest For The Truth About UFOs: A Personal Perspective On The Role Of NICAP

posted on Dec, 4 2013 @ 05:26 PM
Official Investigation:

Due to the public furore about this case and considering claims by the USAF (and therefore the U.S. Government) that Project Bluebook was 'a systematic study of unidentified flying objects' with a view to 'scientifically analyze UFO-related data' you would think that their official investigation into these events would be a thorough, professional and impartial one.

The USAF initially contacted news agencies about the case on April 18th and interviewed local meteorologists in the hope that a weather balloon could have been responsible for the UFO (none were launched and winds were mild) -William Powers who was an assistant to Dr Hynek also spoke to Deputy Spaur on the telephone and after the call suggested to the Chief of Project Bluebook Major Hector Quintanilla that the officers may have mistaken the planet Venus for the UFO (after acquainting himself with more facts Mr Powers did later dismiss his own explanation as inadequate).

Major Hector Quintanilla then began his investigation which 'actually consisted of a two and a half minute phone call' by suggesting to Deputy Spaur that he had seen a mirage (Spaur insisted he had seen no mirage but a clearly defined metallic object maneuvering at very low altitudes), he then made another one and a half minute call to the officer attempting to get him to sign a document stating the UFO sighting had only lasted a few minutes -there's a full in-depth account of these events described in this pdf file around page 44.


The investigation by Major Quintanilla actually consisted in a two minutes and a half phone call to the sole Dale Spaur, starting with this question: "tell me about this mirage you saw." Then a second one minute and a half phone was passed again only to Dale Spaur. According to a written and signed testimony by Spaur, Quintanilla wanted him to sign a text specifying that the sighting lasted only a few minutes. When Spaur protested that it was at least a 60 miles car chase covering two states, Quintanilla put an end to the conversation.

Official Explanation:

After speaking to just one of the police witnesses for under five minutes here is the official explanation for the Portage County police UFO incident (BB case number 10073) as put forward by Major Hector Quintanilla.

The official Air Force evaluation has concluded that the case is explained "by an astronomical phenomenon." When asked for details, they explained that the officers had seen a satellite at first, and then had chased the planet Venus for forty-odd miles.

Project Blue Book (the official UFO investigative arm of the U.S. Air Force) determined that the witnesses had chased a communications satellite, then the planet Venus. This conclusion was rejected by the officers involved as ridiculously inadequate, and was furthermore subject to some wider criticism, contributing to the opinions of some observers that Blue Book was a failure as an investigative project.

The explanation was issued in the form of a press release and despite quite a large number of inconsistencies including the fact that no satellite was visible at that time over Ohio and that the police officers stated they could see the planet Venus, the moon and the UFO towards the end of the pursuit this official conclusion still stands today -according to Quintanilla the UFO's maneuvers and flight characteristics were just 'an optical illusion caused by their excitement and high speed of travel' and he also flatly denied that any jets had been scrambled.

William T. Powers from Northwestern University who had originally suggested the Venus explanation to Quintanilla in the first place had looked more extensively into the case and now stated that he could not agree with the official evaluation and that the hypothesis was incorrect -he also mentions in the letter to two of the police witnesses below that 'what you reported to me could not possibly lead to such a conclusion: a satellite satisfies none of the characteristics of your reported object'.

Letter to Spauer & Neff from Wm. T. Powers.

Dear Mr. Spaur and Mr. Neff.

I am the man who called from the Dearborn Observatory the night after the sighting and got Mr. Spaur's statement. I am an assistant to Dr. J. A. Hynek, director of the observatory and scientific consultant to the Air Force UFO investigating office.

Apparently I found out considerably more about this event than the Air Force investigator did, because I cannot agree with the evaluation publicly released a few days after his sighting. What you reported to me could not possibly lead to such a conclusion: a satellite satisfies none of the characteristics of your reported object. As a matter of fact, Dr. Hynek agrees with this. He was not consulted before this news release was put forth.

I thought at first that during the latter part of your experience, after you had lost the object and then re-acquired it, that you and Mr. Houston might have spotted Venus, and thought it was the same object at a higher altitude: I spoke to Major Quintanilla on the telephone at the time I gave him the results of my telephone interview, and told him of this idea. Now I have additional information, chiefly from Mr. William Weitzel, which appears to make that hypothesis incorrect. I now understand that you and other witnesses did notice Venus and the Moon, and saw the object in motion relative to them, as well as being able to see a shape. At no time, however, did I suppose that the earlier part of the sighting involved anything other than an airborne object.

As far as Dr. Hynek and I are concerned, this incident will require considerable additional investigation, before any conclusion at all can be reached - assuming, of course, that some kind of explanation can be found, which seems highly doubtful.

Page 1 / 2 / 3 / 4

posted on Dec, 4 2013 @ 05:27 PM

After the press release, one of the first folks to be officially informed about Bluebook's explanation was Portage County Sheriff Ross Dustman (Neff and Spaur's boss) who it's said 'laughed out loud' down the telephone -Police Officer Dale Spaur also had a thing or two to say about it and there's some pretty emotional testimony below in which he states he is definitely sure that the object wasn't the planet Venus and that 'he wouldn't have gambled his life, his partner's life or any innocent person on the highway' chasing it.

Sheriff Ross Dustman's statement:

Quintanilla related this conclusion via telephone to Portage County Sheriff Ross Dustman (Neff and Spaur's superior officer). Dustman said he "laughed out loud" after Quintanilla had finished his statement. Dustman was later quoted in a UPI story, stating that he rejected the Air Force assessment: "I go along with my men. It was not a satellite and it was not Venus. I've seen Venus many times, but I never saw Venus 50 feet above a road and moving from side to side..."

Sheriff Dale Spaur's statement:

"After hearing the Air Force release, well, it's, I don't know how much investigation they made but evidently it wasn't a very lengthy one or it didn't involve me. First of all I don't think we have a satellite that can go this low. . . I'm definitely sure that I wasn't chasing Venus or observing Venus and running wildly over the countryside; I'm not quite that bad off. I don't think for a minute in my own mind since I think about what happened that morning that I would have gambled my life, my partner's life or any innocent person on the highway. . . . Also the same object that I observed and that Wayne Huston observed that another officer in Conway, Pennsylvania, could observe the same thing still traveling from the west to the east and to the left of the moon—and which as I understand it, Venus was to the right of the moon, I don't know anything about astronomy but I'm positive of what I was chasing, and I also don't agree it was Venus. I was a nonbeliever before this and never had any thought in my mind that the Air Force couldn't explain every one of these things. I believe in what I saw and nothing is going to change my mind."

Police Officer Dale Spaur

More info, statements and opinions found in news archives.

Beaver County Times:

Explanation of UFO Rejected

Akron Beacon Journal:

Air Force Errs On UFO’s, Probers Back Portage Deputies

WASHINGTON — The offi­cial Air Force explanation of Portage County’s latest uniden­tified flying object was chal­lenged today by a private in­vestigating group.

The object that led two sher­iff’s deputies on an 86-mile chase across Portage and into Pennsylvania wasn’t Venus and it wasn’t a satellite, said the National Investigating Committee for Aerial Pheno­mena (NICAP).

“Our investigation has un­covered a lot of information which refutes the Air Force explanation,” said Richard Hall, an aide to NICAP Direc­tor Donald Keyhoe..

The main flaw which Weitzel found in the Air Force explanation was that the ob­ject which the law enforce­ment officers saw did not hold still, the way a planet like Venus should.

Wayne Huston of the East Palestine Police heard it de­scribed on his police radio and waited at an intersection for the object and its pursuers to pass by, Weitzel said. And he saw it “in detail, flying ov­erhead,” he added.

There were other things which various law enforce­ment officers saw the object do that a planet cannot do, Weitzel said.

It illuminated the ground in an isolated area around their car. It made a buzzing-humming noise which rose in pitch when it stopped hover­ing and started moving.

It made a spot of light move along, the ground as it flew.

Besides, said Weitzel, the deputies could see details of the object. It had a dome-shaped top, a cone-shaped bot­tom portion, and a brilliant, rounded undercarriage..


posted on Dec, 4 2013 @ 05:28 PM
Book Reopened:

"Their conclusion that the object sighted was the planet Venus is so ridiculous that the United States Air Force has suffered a great loss of prestige in this community."

Portage County Court Judge E. Cook

Book reopened on UFO chase

Think it's fair to say NICAP's William Weitzel who performed the initial investigation into events for NICAP wasn't too impressed with Quintanilla's explanation (or method of investigation) either and there's yet more relevant info below about how he and Portage County Judge Robert E. Cook wrote to U.S. Congressman William Stanton about it -Stanton in turn contacted the then Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara and also travelled to the Pentagon to meet with Colonel John Spaulding who promised 'an investigator would arrive there shortly'.

Weitzel thought that Quintanilla's explanation was preposterous and illogical. When he learned that Ohio Congressman William Stanton had expressed an interest in the UFO chase; Weitzel wrote him a detailed letter, outlining what he saw as the inconsistencies and shortcomings of Quintanilla's hypothesis. Portage County Judge Robert E. Cook (an acquaintance of Spaur and Neff) also wrote Stanton, defending the police officers' judgment, and characterizing the Air Force investigation as "grossly unfair" to Spaur and Neff. Stanton would eventually write to Secretary of Defense Robert S. McNamara to complain about Blue Book's handling of the case.

Stanton passed copies of Weitzel's and Judge Cook's letters to the Air Force Commanding General, asking for further investigation of the UFO chase. Two weeks passed with no reply, and a frustrated Stanton then went to The Pentagon himself to speak with Air Force Lt. Col. John Spaulding (who was Chief of the Community Relations Division). Spaulding agreed that Blue Book should have sent an investigator to the scene, and promised that an investigator would arrive there shortly.

That investigator turned out to be Major Quintanilla again and he re-interviewed one of the police witnesses Deputy Dale Spaur (this time for more than five minutes) -Spaur who was 'suspicious of Quintanilla' also asked William Weitzel to come along and tape the interview so that he could not be misquoted and there would be accurate record of the conversation (see videos here).

Dr. Hynek also shares his opinions on the meeting (as well as citing partial transcripts) in the free E-book below, he also goes on to mention how he thinks the case should be reclassified as a 'strong unidentified' and how the rule that Project Bluebook should not adopt an astronomical interpretation of a UFO sighting without the concurrence of the consultant astronomer was 'frequently and flagrantly violated'.

Major Quintanilla's objectivity is also called into question when Hynek states that 'his method was simple: disregard any evidence that was counter to his hypothesis'.


It required Congressional pressures to have Quintanilla make his way to Ravenna to meet and interview Spaur and Neff. This time, Weitzel was there because Spaur asked him to tape his interview with Quintanilla. A partial transcription of the tape reproduced in Dr. J. Allen Hynek's first book "The UFO Experience," is very telling of the ways and manner of Quintanilla when he interrogated UFO witnesses.

Free E-book - Page 130

J. Allen Hynek - The UFO Experience - A Scientific Inquiry (1972)

Official Conclusion:

Despite Colonel Spaulding from the Pentagon conceding that Quintanilla's investigation had been 'in error' and despite Quintanilla being pressured by Congress to re-interview one of the witnesses, the Major decided to stick with the testimony obtained his first 'investigation' and refused to change the evaluation.

When William Weitzel telephoned Project Bluebook he was told by Lieutenant Marley that there was 'No change of conclusion. Still satellite - Venus' -he also received this letter from Colonel Freeman about further inquiries on November 7th:


A letter arrived soon from Colonel Gerald Jorgensen, Chief of the Community Relations Division, USAF. The colonel indicated that the April 17 case was being re-re-re-evaluated. Or was it re-re-re-re-re-evaluated? I had lost track. Things were looking up again, but I felt no optimism. Things had looked up before. At any rate, the tone of Colo-nel Jorgensen's letter was encouraging, and hinted at a full scale USAF review of the case. I waited impatiently until November 7, when the following letter came from Colonel Freeman:

"I have undertaken this response relative to the Ravenna case and your recent letters to Colonel Holni, Colonel De Goes, Colonel Jorgensen, Colonel Mims, Lt. Colonel Rippler, Major Ouintanilla and myself.

"The Ravenna case has been adjudged as presenting no evidence of a military threat to the United States and an explanation has been recorded as to the probable cause. Only in the event new tangible evidence is discovered will there be any reassessment of the case.

"We respect your right to disagree with Air Force findings in this case and understand your desire to convince us of the correctness of your assessment. We cannot agree, however, that continued review of portions of the case already well known to the principals can or will prove fruitful. Hence, correspondence toward that end is futile."

That, in essence, is where this controversial sighting and its baffling, embittering and even tragic, aspects rests today. For some it has been a lesson in self control; for others, in bureaucratic confusion. For me, a lesson in futility.


edit on 4-12-2013 by karl 12 because: (no reason given)

posted on Dec, 4 2013 @ 05:28 PM

"The city officials didn't like police officers chasing flying saucers."

Police Officer H. Wayne Huston

Due to the Satellite / Venus debunk, the initial aftermath of the investigation was a difficult time for the police witnesses and it's said they experienced quite a lot of ridicule and mockery for being the victims of an optical illusion and making such a fuss over a planet -Deputy Sheriff Dale Spaur also took the brunt of the fallout as Major Quintanilla's statement to the media made no mention of any other police officers (or civilians) seeing the object.

Aftermath Of A Sighting

Haunted By A Saucer Named Floyd (pdf file)

He Chased A Flying Saucer Now His Life Is Shattered

Officers Buchert, Neff, Huston and Panzanella were also affected though and due to the media frenzy following the sightings Panzanella had to disconnect his phone, Buchert lost 20 pounds in 3 days and Huston even felt he had to change his name -Deputy Neff also remarked to his wife that now even if the UFO were to land in his back yard he 'wouldn’t tell a soul'.


MANTUA Police Chief Gerald Buchert saw the craft and photographed it. The pic­tures turned out badly, an odd fuzzy white thing suspended in blackness. Today, Chief Buchert laughs nervously when he speaks of that night.

“I’d rather not talk about it,” he says. “It’s something that should be forgotten . . left alone. I saw something, but I don’t know what it was.”

He laughs again and it is forced, high-pitched.


SPECIAL Portage Deputy W. L. Neff rode with Spaur during the chase. Now he won’t talk about it.

His wife Jackelyne explains, “I hope I never see him like he was after the chase. He was real white, almost in a state of shock It was awful.

“And people made fun of him afterwards. He never talks about it anymore,” she con­tinued. “Once he told me, ‘If that thing landed in my back yard, I wouldn’t tell a soul.’ He’s been through a wringer.”


PATROLMAN Frank Panza­nella saw the chase end in Conway, Pa., where he works. He saw the craft.

Now, like the others, he is silent. His friends say he had his telephone removed because of phone calls about that April morning.


H. WAYNE HUSTON has left his job as a police officer in East Palestine, 0h. He had worked there seven years. Sev­eral months after the saucer ‘passed above him in the night, The resigned from the force . . . going to Seattle, Wash., to drive a bus.

Huston has changed his name to Harold W. Huston. He, too, prefers not to speak of the strange object. But he will tell you: “Sure I quit because of that thing. People laughed at me. And there was pressure . . . You couldn’t put your finger on it, but the pres­sure was there. The city offi­cials didn’t like police officers chasing flying saucers.”

It’s Chasing Him Now, Flying Saucer Blasts His Life


Spaur and Neff became the object of `yell meaning" ridicule. Spaur wondered how effective his. testimony in court as to seeing a certain license number on a speeding car would be. What if the defense lawyer said, "Aren't you the fellow who chased Venus into Pennsylvania?" His phone became tied up day and night. He got an unlisted number, but that helped only a short while. Eventually he had his phone removed, but letters still came to him at the station, from all over the country, even from abroad. Blue Book's statement to the press had made no mention of Neff, Huston, or Panzanella. Spaur felt very much alone.

Media Circus:

The attention from the local media was only the beginning. Tiny Mantua and other parts of Portage County were soon overrun with reporters from all over. The UFO phenomenon was already decades old in 1966, but this sighting was one of the most dramatic -- and seemingly credible, coming from police officers -- ever reported.

"It was like we set off a bomb in this town." recalls Joan Buchert. "My husband lost 20 pounds in three days."

Harry remembers the endless phone calls and knocks on the door. "It was three days of living hell."

Strangers In The Night

edit on 10-12-2013 by karl 12 because: (no reason given)

posted on Dec, 4 2013 @ 05:29 PM
Dr Mcdonald:

Atmospherical physicist Dr James E. Mcdonald also personally invested 'a great deal of time' looking into the case and re-interviewing the witnesses -he also rejected Bluebook's explanation as implausible and wrote in his diary that Quintanilla did promise to change the official explanation to 'unidentified' (which is what Dr Hynek thought should happen as well) but unfortunately the Major never did.

Another critic was Dr. James E. McDonald of the University of Arizona, an atmospheric physicist and UFO investigator. After detailed research, he too rejected Quintanilla's explanation as implausible. During a meeting with Quintanilla, McDonald would record in his diary that he said he forwarded to the Air Force "information that proves the huge UFO which Deputies Spaur and Neff chased from Ohio to Pennsylvania couldn't have possibly been an Echo satellite and Venus! What do you plan to do about that?" According to McDonald, Quintanilla responded, "I'll change it to 'unidentified.'"

However, Blue Book never changed their conclusion, and recorded the Echo/Venus theory as the "official" explanation for the UFO chase.

In his lecture at Kent State University in 1968 Dr Mcdonald also discussed the incident and brought up factors like the size, height and description of the object, separately located witnesses and the fact that he had assurances that the official assessment would be changed -he also criticizes the 'ugly' interrogation of Deputy Spaur by Major Quintanilla.

* At the link Dr Mcdonald also mentions another similar police UFO case known as the Red Bluff Incident -this involved an object reported by officers to be performing 'aerial gymnastics' that were 'actually unbelievable' and the Bluebook explanation for this one is 'Aldeberan and Capella'.

McDonald: This case of April 17th, 1966 is a beautiful illustration of how the percentage of unidentified shall be reduced to a minimum.. I’ve interviewed three of the police officers, by the way, and spent a great deal of time looking into this case.

This one was explained in the 1st instance, in the 2nd instance and at present, by Project Blue Book as Echo Satellite and Venus, in the following (manner) sequence.

Air Force Explanation:
The officers saw a satellite go overhead, transferred their attention to Venus which was rising in the East, and followed Venus.

These men wore out their tires, got two other police officers involved in the chase; at times the object was only 200 ft. above them and they estimated it to be about 40-50 ft. in diameter. One of the officers, Wayne Huston, a police officer in East Palistine, heard the transmissions of the first car. They were coming down Route 14. He realized they weren’t far away. He went out and parked. Sure enough, down the highway came a high-speed car. It had two officers in it. Above it was an unidentified flying object. It was a luminous object that looked vaguely like an ice-cream cone upside down, and this officer sped up, caught up with them, and now there were two patrol cars going down (the highway) and they passed out of Ohio into Pennsylvania.

And this is (explained as) the Echo Satellite and Venus.

I wrote a memorandum to the Colonel in-charge down there and got an agreement at one stage of the game that they were changing their assessment. Then I found a month later that they had sent by your congressman, Stanton, assurances that a re-investigation on the part of the Air Force had confirmed the original explanation. That’s when I started speaking out.

I thought there might have been some hope in the summer of ’66 when I was up at Wright Paterson. My hope has not been rekindled since.The Portage County case finally was explained once and for-all as a confusion over the Echo Satellite and Venus. Unbelievable! You should hear the transcript of the interrogation by the Blue Book officer. It’s really ugly . . . the United States Air Force.”

September 24, 1968 Lecture, "UFOs: A Case Study in Public Mis-information" at Kent State University, Ohio

Also thought he asked some pertinent questions here and made an important point about USAF UFO explanations leaving a lot to be desired.

McDonald's 1968 Speech at Kent University, Ohio

So, what reason would the police officers have for lying in the above case? Are their identification skills really as poor as the "final?" explanations tried to make them out to be? In some instances, there were numerous witnesses that confirmed exactly what the officers reported.

The technology reported back then still has not been displayed in any military arena by any government we know, and the Air Force explanations for some of the better sightings left much to be desired.

posted on Dec, 4 2013 @ 05:30 PM
So what to make of it all then? As Dr Hynek put it, the crucial question was 'what did the deputies see rise over the treetops?' and I suppose it's a pretty astute one as the object then went on to hover directly over the officer's patrol car whilst illuminating the area with an 'intense light'.

If a person does accept the Project Bluebook's explanation (and a lot don't) then it seems they have to ignore large swathes of first hand witness testimony about the UFO maneuvering across the road, hovering over, pacing and accelerating away from the patrol car, coming down near the bridge, shooting straight up etc..

They also have to consider that the evaluation was the product of probably one of the least thorough investigations in UFO history consisting of a five minute telephone call to only one of the witnesses and factor in the satellite involved was not even visible in the sky at the time (as stated by Dr Hynek).

Also, it's repeatedly stated that the object the police officers were chasing was visible in the sky at the same time as the planet Venus (which was described as 'a white dot next to the moon') and that planets don't tend to make a loud humming noise like an overloaded transformer or put out beams of light that produce illuminated spots on the ground.


If the object was some sort of secret military test vehicle as some folks have suggested then I suppose some serious questions also need to be asked about the nature of the object; its flight charateristics (hovering capabilities, vertical ascent, high acceleration, high speed, high maneuverability etc.) and its appearance (no visible propulsion system, no windows, no irregular surface features, no exhaust or contrails etc).

As Dr Mcdonald already mentioned back in 1968 'the technology reported has still not been displayed in any military arena by any government we know' and as that statement remains true nearly 50 years later then what was the technology and who on earth was testing it?

Then of course there's the public safety factor in testing the object over heavily populated areas and the incredible irresponsibilty of flying it very close to public highways, endangering human lives and goading the police officers into an 86 mile pursuit (which inevitably ruined the life of one of the witnesses).

If none of those two then it really does leave us with a truly Unidentified Flying Object and no wonder the two scientists Dr Hynek and Dr Mcdonald wanted to officially reclassify the case 'a strong unidentified'.

Also what does it say about Project Bluebook's debunking agenda in the 1960's as this is by no means the only case where the official explanation is an extremely controversial one (link) -perhaps Dr Mcdonald had it right all along when he said that many of the truly interesting UFO cases have been 'swept under the rug in a most disturbing way'.

"As a result of several trips to project Bluebook,I´ve had an opportunity to examine quite carefully and in detail the types of reports that are made by Bluebook personnel.In most cases,I have found that theres almost no correlation between so-called "evaluations and explanations" that are made by Bluebook and the facts of the case...
There are hundreds of good cases in the Air Force files that should have led to top-level scientific scrutiny of this problem,years ago,yet these cases have been swept under the rug in a most disturbing way by Project Bluebook investigators and their consultants."

Dr James McDonald -Senior physicist at the Institute for Atmospheric Physics and professor in the Department of Meteorology at the University of Arizona

Also, not to go on about it but apparently about 30 or 40 per cent of Bluebook cases may have been 'miscategorized' by the USAF as 'identified' and the true number of credible cases grossly underestimated -there are even claims that the Bluebook team from the 1960's went back and substituted official summary cards for unexplained cases 'to reduce the number of unknowns at any cost' and researcher Brad Sparks has compiled a great list below.

"Much more disturbing are the indications from my limited review of BB cases that there may be as many as possibly 4,000 Unexplained UFO cases miscategorized as IFO's in the BB files. McDonald similarly stated in 1968 at his CASI lecture that from his review of BB cases he estimated that 30-40% of 12,000 cases were Unexplained, or about 3,600 to 4,800. These are mostly military cases and many involve radar".

Comprehensive Catalog of 1,600 Project BLUE BOOK UFO Unknowns


Similar police UFO pursuit in the same state 10 days earlier - report also states the UFO departed vertically like the Portage case (sourced by Kandinsky):

April 7, 1966; Mansfield, OHIO - NICAP - The 1966 UFO Chronology

Claims of missing (or suppressed) evidence in the Portage County case:

Lost Evidence Case #10: Persecution of Cops Who Said They Didn’t Chase Venus.

UFO sighting on same day as the Portage County incident by three municipal workers and a policeman in Western Michigan:

Area UFO Followed By Trouble

PDF Files:

Congressional Hearings:

Ohio Sheriffs' Instrumental In 1966 U.S. Congressional hearings on UFOs

New UFO witness - Catholic priest:

April 1966 Ravenna Case Revisited: New Interviews Reported

Ravenna UFO - Page 23:

REGIONAL ENCOUNTERS - The FC Files, A Century of UFO Sightings and Close Encounters in the Midwest (Page 22)

Page 7 - Tenacious Female News Reporter Causes Quintanilla High Level Pressure:

The Ravenna Case - NICAP UFO Investigator


NICAP Case Directory:

Ufologie Case Directory:
edit on 4-12-2013 by karl 12 because: (no reason given)

posted on Dec, 4 2013 @ 06:31 PM
Sheesh! Talk about case work. You did great.

As I was reading this. I called my dad whom use to be based at GPIA greater Pitt. With the 112 fighter wing. I remember he and a former Col. A very close family friend. Telling me of this event as a child. And that jets were scrambled.

I forgot about until just now.

My dad is laughing over the phone saying...." I told you "...

I thought he was yanking my tale.

This has happened more than once over the years. You have vindicated my father.

posted on Dec, 4 2013 @ 07:05 PM
reply to post by karl 12

I live in East Palestine - I use Route 14/Route 51 across the PA border to get to work every day along their exact chase route. Yes, Venus would be directly ahead/slightly left of their field of view at that time of the morning at certain times of the year - I know, I've seen it many times myself. But - BIG but..not once did I think it was an Ice cream cone-shaped UFO, no matter what or how much I was drinking the night before. I might have to ask some of the long-time locals here if they ever witnessed it themselves that day. If I recall, and you may have mentioned it already, it inspired the UFO chase scene in Close Encounters of the Third Kind (remember the toll booth scene with "Ohio"). Thanks for bringing it back to the forefront....S&F...

posted on Dec, 4 2013 @ 07:44 PM
reply to post by karl 12

Great case and the thread does it justice, have to say the thing that always strikes me with this is the ridicule factor and how many people got put off even reporting their own sightings. Like to think things are different now and I would say they are, but UFOs are still a joke topic in some circles.

posted on Dec, 4 2013 @ 08:19 PM
Really great post of the researched data. It shows how the cover up is done from several directions. Hard to believe how these type of events can force men to have to change their lives. It is a shame that the public often jumps to ridicule instead of curiosity and a search for the truth.

posted on Dec, 4 2013 @ 08:32 PM
reply to post by karl 12

Sounds super, as per usu Karl 12, thanks for sharing. Sadly this is just a tab, so I can come back later and dive in.


posted on Dec, 4 2013 @ 08:45 PM
Outstanding thread, karl! Sure venus is "loud" and can appear to move when traveling twisting routes. But the details given by the participants are very consistent and absolutely seem to suggest a lower-flying anomaly with distinguishing characteristics. The humming noise especially of note imo. I also see some intriguing similarities with Cash-Landrum.

Cash-Landrum Artist Conception

I hope some of those poor abused fellows get a chance to see reports like this and know that they have support.

Was it alien? Who tha' heck knows. Was it Venus? That's pretty stoopid. Definitely anomalous and unidentified.

edit on 4-12-2013 by The GUT because: (no reason given)

posted on Dec, 4 2013 @ 09:22 PM
here is another from the mid 90's where I grew up.

Interesting no doubt

posted on Dec, 4 2013 @ 10:09 PM

here is another from the mid 90's where I grew up.

Interesting no doubt

Your post is incomplete it appears..

But then I noticed your avatar and mood with location! It all makes sense..!!!

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