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On the Origin of Morality: The Sam Harris v Wm Lane Craig debate pt 2

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posted on Dec, 5 2013 @ 12:24 PM
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SisyphusRide

AfterInfinity
reply to post by SisyphusRide
 


Lyle and Erik Menendez.

en.wikipedia.org...

I find your tactics as filthy as your accusation, Sisyphus. Since you evidently can't build a stable argument, you're embarked on a smearing campaign.


I do not take wiki links... it's not in stone over there.


Because your Bible is, right? I don't think I need to add anything more to that. My point is clear.




posted on Dec, 5 2013 @ 12:25 PM
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I will not pick a sentence out and try to make claims to save face for Craig... I do not expect the opposition to do it either.

I am speaking on the whole 12mins of his speech and the context in that 12 min rebuttal.



posted on Dec, 5 2013 @ 12:26 PM
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reply to post by SisyphusRide
 



I will not pick a sentence out and try to make claims to save face for Craig...

YOU JUST DID!!!!

again. wow.



posted on Dec, 5 2013 @ 12:26 PM
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AfterInfinity

SisyphusRide

AfterInfinity
reply to post by SisyphusRide
 


Lyle and Erik Menendez.

en.wikipedia.org...

I find your tactics as filthy as your accusation, Sisyphus. Since you evidently can't build a stable argument, you're embarked on a smearing campaign.


I do not take wiki links... it's not in stone over there.


Because your Bible is, right? I don't think I need to add anything more to that. My point is clear.



no God is right... I don't know much about the bible, sorry you'll need a pro


God is the truth and the truth is love... not rape.

get with it...



posted on Dec, 5 2013 @ 12:29 PM
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wildtimes
reply to post by SisyphusRide
 



I will not pick a sentence out and try to make claims to save face for Craig...

YOU JUST DID!!!!

again. wow.


I gave you the exact sentence yes... and it culminates his 12mins

and now we are onto why Harris thinks the Professor and Doctor that Craig mentions are psychopaths?

and I'm not laughing or smirking or smiling... btw



posted on Dec, 5 2013 @ 12:32 PM
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reply to post by windword
 



Rape, for example, is NOT morally wrong in the animal kingdom.

I don't see how you can make that statement, either that morals exist in the animal kingdom, or, if they do, their moral standard (as opposed to behaviour) is that rape is moral.

I find the premise that rape, or child molestation, or torture, are not inherently wrong to be appalling. Saying that the only reason it is wrong is that it violates "subjective free will" is ridiculous -- with your standard, it is just as right to say that banning child molestation violates the subjective free will of pedophiles.



posted on Dec, 5 2013 @ 12:32 PM
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you didn't think I'd find it did ya? lol that's why you edited your post to remove it...

but I have it quoted and saved in my post, no worries



posted on Dec, 5 2013 @ 12:32 PM
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reply to post by SisyphusRide
 


Wild literally just posted the quote where the atheist dude explains that his psychopathy comment was not a personal assault on the followers but a commentary on their religion as a result of several things he explained beforehand. He provided a premise, several pieces of well-reasoned evidence, and a conclusion which he then explained was not a personal assault but an observation of that which transcended its individual components aka Christians worldwide. I think he did express some incredulity that they hadn't thought about what he was explaining, but that's about it.

So instead of explaining how he's wrong, you can just keep complaining about how rude he was.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Click that link. I dare you. Click that link and keep beating your dead horse.
edit on 5-12-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 5 2013 @ 12:33 PM
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reply to post by SisyphusRide
 


What the hell are you talking about?



posted on Dec, 5 2013 @ 12:36 PM
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wildtimes
reply to post by WarminIndy
 



but it does come from somewhere spiritual within you, because you appealed to the emotions and compassion.

Animals like domestic dogs also feel emotions and compassion.
Daily 'witnesses' to this are on the internet. A dog saving a baby from crawling into the surf. Waiting for its master to come home. Dogs, cats, horses, elephants grieving when a companion (of any species) dies.

Harris's point is that we are social - deeply social - creatures. My dogs become agitated when one of us is out of the house, and are ecstatic when we come back home 'to the den.'

My horses moped and sulked when babies were separated from their moms for weaning.

Have you seen The Horse Whisperer?

Higher mammals HAVE EMOTIONS and COMPASSION.
So, it is as Harris says: we are intrinsically emotional and compassionate because we, as a species, need each other, and need love.


And you know that I believe God put that in them.


My little dog is lying beside my chair right now, but he's growling at some sound outside. He really thinks he has to defend his home, even though he is all of five pounds.

But I do believe animals were created to be our helpers and friends. I also believe that when the message to man of being the caretakers of earth, was not that we are lords over the earth to exploit endlessly and tear it up, but that we were given the special command to take care of it. That includes animals, we aren't their lords, we are the co-inhabitants, but we have been given the ability to take care of animals and the earth.

Darn, now Christians are going to say I am a New Ager, but they don't read that command. It says man is to take care of it. We aren't doing a very good job of it.

And I think Adam and Eve really went overboard in replenishing....(which by the way begs the question, why would they be commanded to replenish, if they got the first earth??? Something else was here before them).

God made animals special, God made everything special, but mankind screwed it up. That's what I think.



posted on Dec, 5 2013 @ 12:38 PM
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reply to post by WarminIndy
 



God made animals special, God made everything special, but mankind screwed it up. That's what I think.


So you support homosexuality and having sex for fun in the animal kingdom?


edit on 5-12-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 5 2013 @ 12:39 PM
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reply to post by WarminIndy
 



God made animals special, God made everything special, but mankind screwed it up. That's what I think.

And that's where you and I agree.
(Besides that...you are a sort of "New Ager", Indy.
You just are. No shame. No harm, no foul. Embrace it!)
edit on 12/5/13 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 5 2013 @ 12:41 PM
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wildtimes
reply to post by SisyphusRide
 


What the hell are you talking about?


I am talking about his whole 12min rebuttal... do you need the time index for where it starts?

I can tear this Harris guy up and burn down all his strawmen he uses in this debate on my own.

let's do a fact-check shall we? do you want to start at the beginning of the video?

I am highly into this very thing.



posted on Dec, 5 2013 @ 12:43 PM
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reply to post by adjensen
 


So, are you saying that "God's objective morality" doesn't apply to animals, but only to humans? How is that objective morality?

My cats delight in torturing mice and ducks participate in gang rape. Are they immoral?

Where is the universal divine command of morality?



posted on Dec, 5 2013 @ 12:43 PM
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reply to post by SisyphusRide
 


List your points one by one. Put 'em up. Let's have it all.
edit on 5-12-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 5 2013 @ 12:45 PM
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reply to post by SisyphusRide
 



I can tear this Harris guy up and burn down all his strawmen he uses in this debate on my own.



No. Really: NO. You can't, and you haven't. Or you'd have done so by now.

Do I need the timestamp? No, I don't. I already posted JUST HIS REBUTTAL. I also provided a source for the transcript. I do, however, need a new VSS on my Honda. I called a mechanic that was recommended to me by my last AWESOME mechanic....

I'd already done the legwork, I KNEW what was wrong. The guy said, "So, you think you need a new VSS?"

I said, "no, I'm POSITIVE" (my neighbor guy had the computer tool to plug into the port behind the ashtray).
"It should only take a few minutes." (which I gauged by watching a mechanic on youtube do the task).

The mechanic finally called me back and said he'd had to talk to the Honda dealership, and THEY TOLD HIM it would cost $250. He didn't even know what the part cost.
Lame.

And here you are, trying to call yourself an "apologist" with only a first-grade (kindergarten?) level of knowledge of the Bible and Christian apologetics.





edit on 12/5/13 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 5 2013 @ 12:51 PM
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wildtimes
reply to post by SisyphusRide
 



my claim that was Harris thinks everyone in the world are psychopaths and delusional.

WHICH IS PREPOSTEROUS, and A LIE.

Now you're insulting my ability to navigate a computer? Gha. I watched the ENTIRE DEBATE before even making this thread. I reviewed his rebuttal and quoted from the transcript what HE SAID.

Wow.

You've been shot down, Sis. He did NOT say that everyone in the world are psychopaths and delusional!!!
edit on 12/5/13 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)


I wonder, would Sam Harris think I am a psychopath and delusional?

My belief in God hasn't led me to doing all this crazy stuff. The only issues that I have are with really, really, really bad people. And even people who claim to believe in God can be really, really, really bad.

As Medea says, I can do bad all by myself....

You heard of the Horse Whisperer, I'm the Kid Whisperer...


No, really I am not. But I can do bad all by myself, so that's why I know I need help to be good. But I'm not psychopathic or delusional...

Now my dog has pooped on his pee pad, I have to go divine the message...



posted on Dec, 5 2013 @ 12:53 PM
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reply to post by windword
 



So, are you saying that "God's objective morality" doesn't apply to animals, but only to humans? How is that objective morality?

My cats delight in torturing mice and ducks participate in gang rape. Are they immoral?

Actually, that's not what I said. I said that we have no way of knowing whether they are aware of morality, which exists whether they know it or not. The acts of someone (or something, per your cats,) are inherently moral or immoral, but the person (or cat) is not moral or immoral if they are unaware of the morality of their acts. Along the lines of not incarcerating someone for a crime if they were mentally ill and didn't realize that it was wrong -- the act is still wrong, inherently.

So your cats are acting immorally, because torture is inherently wrong, but unless you can demonstrate that they are aware of that fact and torture mice anyway, I don't think that you can say that they are immoral.



posted on Dec, 5 2013 @ 12:56 PM
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AfterInfinity
reply to post by WarminIndy
 



God made animals special, God made everything special, but mankind screwed it up. That's what I think.


So you support homosexuality and having sex for fun in the animal kingdom?


edit on 5-12-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)


Let's not even have that discussion....

Animals have sex for fun? I thought that pure hormonal.

I don't think any gay chimpanzee is cruising the trees saying "look, that chimp is foiiiiiinnneeee".



posted on Dec, 5 2013 @ 12:56 PM
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AfterInfinity
reply to post by SisyphusRide
 


List your points one by one. Put 'em up. Let's have it all.
edit on 5-12-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)


maybe we should do a new video and new thread... of the oppositions choosing?

this thread is already torn to hell thanks to your gracious appearance in it


I don't respond well to attacks, I'm working on it though.

when I surround myself with intellectuals I become one them...

but when I surround myself with atheistic "do what ever we wanters" I stoop... its a fact of life.

survival of the fittest eh?



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