On the Origin of Morality: The Sam Harris v Wm Lane Craig debate pt 2

windword
reply to post by SisyphusRide

 

there are plenty of videos out there where they ask atheists and democrats if they think rape is wrong...

we never get to the "yes" it is wrong part.

Neither does the Bible.

Ill leave someone more knowledgeable to you addressing if it is actually wrong, becuase it is not stated directly in the bible?

I have no idea...

but I will pull up another democrat atheist who happens to be a "female" struggling with answering "yes" it is wrong.

let me know...

reply to post by SisyphusRide


Are you even taking this seriously? Because if you're not taking this seriously, let us know so we can stop treating you like a serious, thoughtful, intellectual participant of this mature debate. I don't have any desire to debate politics, religion, or sexuality with someone who relies on the tactics and emotional maneuvers of a 12 year old.

And in response to the post directly preceding this one: by all means, continue pulling isolated examples off of Youtube. Because Youtube is the paragon of research material and should always be referred to in case of losing a fight you picked.

windword
Yes, you're wrong.

would your greatness mind expanding on or explaining this further?

reply to post by AfterInfinity


...ignored

reply to post by SisyphusRide

...ignored

...along with all the counterpoints and evidence that have proven you misrepresented Harris, misunderstand atheists, and are wrong. Just like Craig did.

AfterInfinity

SisyphusRide

WarminIndy
Is this the new way of saying "moral relativity"?

I don't think so myself, because in atheism there is not objective reality outside space and time which can not be questioned.

there are plenty of videos out there where they ask atheists and democrats if they think rape is wrong...

we never get to the "yes" it is wrong part.

Oh, I'll gladly answer that for you. I'll even explain why.

I feel rape is wrong, for a very simple reason. I can imagine the act happening to me. I can imagine the emotions it would instill, the rage and despair and misery. I can imagine the absolute powerlessness I might feel for weeks, months, years afterward. Knowing that someone would willingly violate me in such a vicious and personal manner and never even regret it. I would hate this world. I would want nothing to do with it, ever again. And just like that, a simple act would destroy me because it would destroy my faith in the one species who is capable of destroying this world and every living thing on it.

And because I am able to register those emotions, able to imagine that effect, and able to acknowledge what terrible things it would do to me inside, I would have little choice but to recognize that same potential in others. To know that that's exactly how others would feel if subjected to the same act. And that's why I feel rape is wrong. Because no one should ever make you feel like that.

No god gave me that sense of morality. Compassion and empathy gave me that sense of morality.

And that's your subjective view.

But there are atheists who do rape because they do not believe in your morality.

You say rape is wrong because you say how you would feel about it. But when someone else does not feel the same way you do, then you shouldn't say it is wrong for them, it is only wrong for you. Because your morality is AfterInfinity-defined and held within you.

But how are you going to convince others who do not see it as wrong, and how are you going to give them some sort of standard above AfterInfinity's definition of morality? That makes yours objective now, no longer subjective, if you say it is wrong for all people.

You say your morality does not come from God, but it does come from somewhere spiritual within you, because you appealed to the emotions and compassion. You have described feeling utterly destroyed, hurt and damaged in your person. But those are spiritual levels that you have reached. You might be damaged in your body for a short time, but the emotional damage is spiritual. So I think it does come from God, whether you realize it or not.

SisyphusRide

windword
Yes, you're wrong.

would your greatness mind expanding on or explaining this further?

Uh, okay......

he claims Craig is not offering an alternative view of morality...

so am I wrong in assuming atheism is?

You're wrong in assuming that atheists offer no alternative view of morality.

reply to post by wildtimes


here is the answer to your question "where did Harris call everyone psychopaths"

1:05 +40 sec

"this is completly "psychotic" and delusional to believe in these things" -Harris


care to refute?

reply to post by windword

I don't think that objective morality does exist, at all, but that's my opinion.

The problem with that is that without objective morality, there is no morality, because it is all down to opinion.

Since someone brought it up, consider rape. If you are a proponent of subjective morality, you cannot claim that rape is immoral, because to the one being raped, subjectively, it is immoral, to the one doing the raping, subjectively, it is not. Without an objective basis to evaluate whether it is, or isn't, a conclusion may not be drawn.

If the majority of society, for whatever reason, decided that rape was not immoral, your subjective morality has to fall into line with that thinking. It doesn't matter that rape is fundamentally wrong, because without objective and absolute morality, it is not wrong, it is simply a matter of opinion and whatever society's standards happen to be.

That's why people like Harris desperately want to find some source of objective morality which is not God. He wants morality, he wants to be able to evaluate and judge people, ideas and actions, and for that to be possible, he has to disprove subjective morality.

reply to post by WarminIndy

but it does come from somewhere spiritual within you, because you appealed to the emotions and compassion.

Animals like domestic dogs also feel emotions and compassion.
Daily 'witnesses' to this are on the internet. A dog saving a baby from crawling into the surf. Waiting for its master to come home. Dogs, cats, horses, elephants grieving when a companion (of any species) dies.

Harris's point is that we are social - deeply social - creatures. My dogs become agitated when one of us is out of the house, and are ecstatic when we come back home 'to the den.'

My horses moped and sulked when babies were separated from their moms for weaning.

Have you seen The Horse Whisperer?

Higher mammals HAVE EMOTIONS and COMPASSION.
So, it is as Harris says: we are intrinsically emotional and compassionate because we, as a species, need each other, and need love.

now that we have that all cleared up, can be get back on to the discussion...?

thank you

reply to post by wildtimes


Birds who say "You be good I love you" before dying, when there's a lot of people who believe animals are incapable of processing "human" emotion.

reply to post by SisyphusRide


Dude, I already posted his statement both on vid and via the transcript.

You claimed he said that Craig was a psychopath. He did not. He specifically stated that he was NOT SAYING that. He did say, however, that the God of the Bible was indeed capable of cruelty and injustice that would "embarrass the most ambitious psychopath", which is true.

Whatever. I'm done with you.

reply to post by wildtimes


you can start at 1:05 and listen to the context...

at this point in the thread things were going well, lets get back to that because I am not giving in to defending anything.

I don't have enough knowledge on the subject to defend it fully yet... I am attacking Harris' methods and dishonorable tactics.

reply to post by adjensen


This is why I DON'T believe that objective morality exists.

Even if you believe that God dispenses morality, he doesn't do it objectively. Rape, for example, is NOT morally wrong in the animal kingdom. The only reason that human's don't like rape is because it impinges on our free will to NOT be raped. When our subjective free will is violated, we see that as immoral, no matter if the person who is impinging their forced will thinks of it as moral.

I'm not an atheist, but I don't see God as good or moral. God and God's law just is. I don't believe in "Divine Command Theory" because there is no universal divine command outside of natural law.

reply to post by SisyphusRide

Here, I'll repeat the salient sentences of Harris's argument:

Now, I’m obviously not saying that all that Dr. Craig, or all religious people, are psychopaths and psychotics, but this to me is the true horror of religion.

It allows perfectly decent and sane people to believe by the billions, what only lunatics could believe on their own.

You're right. You're in over your head here.

reply to post by wildtimes


And I agree with him. The way he explains things is clearly thought out.

wildtimes
You claimed he said that Craig was a psychopath.

do you have the ability to hit the back button, or select a page number?

my claim that was Harris thinks everyone in the world are psychopaths and delusional. (The 98% majority theists on the planet.)

he speaks about many different beliefs in this 12min rebuttal... watch the 12mins fully, and you will not be ill informed.

reply to post by SisyphusRide

my claim that was Harris thinks everyone in the world are psychopaths and delusional.

WHICH IS PREPOSTEROUS, and A LIE.

Now you're insulting my ability to navigate a computer? Gha. I watched the ENTIRE DEBATE before even making this thread. I reviewed his rebuttal and quoted from the transcript what HE SAID.

Wow.

You've been shot down, Sis. He did NOT say that everyone in the world are psychopaths and delusional!!!

SisyphusRide
ahh.. people love being victims, so it's ok.

Rape away atheists...

I don't think this rebuttal is right or honest.

Rape is a horrible act carried out by people who have no regard for the dignity or respect of another person. I think there are atheists who do have dignity and respect for other people.

There are religious people who do not have dignity or respect for others. We see it all the time. I think you should go to the religious people who are doing this and punch them in the face, because they are lying about their religion.

WarminIndy might be religious, but WarminIndy ain't letting religious people slide in anything. They aren't getting by with it by me. And if you are Christian, then you know very well that the Bible says "judgment begins at the house of God".

When you have churches that cover up sex abuse of children (not only Catholics in this charge), and no judgment against them by other Christians, then we have thrown God-defined morality under the bus and backed up over it to drive over it again and again and again.

You know that God is not going to look at an atheist that has never raped anyone and judge them for it. The one thing you should know very well as a Christian, is that in the end, we are judged by our works. And even Christian people will be judged for their works as well. If you claim to be a Christian, then you know you are not getting out of being judged for your works.

But if you make the claim that this is the God you believe in, then you are going to have to accept His words. Let the atheists judge themselves, let the Hindus judge themselves, but you made a covenant contract with this God, so you will be judged according to the terms you agreed to. Others didn't agree to it, they can't be judged according to a contract they didn't enter into.

You know that God does not force anyone to agree to the contract, but if you willingly agree, then you have agreed to all the terms.

Where there is no law, there is no punishment. They didn't agree to living under that law by covenant, therefore they can't be punished. As non-Christian as that might sound, it's Biblical. I'm a Christian and willingly agree that my works will be judged. But that's my covenant with God. I can't force anyone else to enter the covenant. Therefore I can't apply a law that is not relevant to them. One thing Paul said was "The gentiles do by nature the things contained in the law, therefore are a law unto themselves". Gentile in that sense was for those who are non-believers. They do by nature, morality. So yes, the Biblical morality is that for non-believers, it comes by their own nature.

I hope you understand this, by saying atheists rape, the Bible says they already by nature know morality.