Are Alien Debunkers trying to Deny Ignorance or Are they trying to Block the Truth?

reply to post by AlienView

Eventually the truth will be known but for now the imagination and the potentials of the imagination must be kept open lest some hypothetical alien race passes us by as dull, stupid and lacking in creative imagination.

Thanks... the bet passes.

Closed minds fail in open spaces... a truth of our species.

Hi Alien View,

We can imagine that the entire gamut of possibilities will be found in the replies to any post asserting that Aliens exist. Further, many agree that they might exist but maintain that they cannot have come to Earth for the simple reason that they didn't see them here, that no official mainstream news gathering organization has reported them as being here, and because no government has asserted that they have arrived or intervened in our Earth's affairs.

Then there are those who consider that the only thing which can exist is that which we already know to exist, both personally and as a consensus. Hence nothing can be real unless there is overwhelming and undeniable evidence to prove it. Pictures or shut up, is what you often hear from them.

Also, there are those who are simply skeptical while keeping an open mind. However, they require some form of event or factual data, even if that from unexplained phenomena, to entertain the possibility that Aliens might exist and may even have visited our planet.

Finally there are those who mock and deride posts pointing to the existence of Aliens, and engage in character assassination of whomever believes them to exist. These behaviors are clearly hostile and are bent upon suppressing such opinions, either because they threaten their own reality construct, or because they threaten certain parties who value secrecy and seek to disinform to conceal the truth of an Alien presence.

Being a direct eyewitness to an Alien at fairly close range, right here on Earth, I can simply state that I wish I "knew" they didn't exist, but I no longer can have the comfort of seeking refuge in such a reassuring conclusion. Unfortunately, they do exist and some are here. If only it were not true...

Getsmart

reply to post by SecretKnowledge


I am on the five year version of ATS and have seen and experienced plenty don't get an attitude just because I proved your point wrong. Just accept the fact ATS has people with agendas other than denying ignorance.

I 100% believe in ETs and many other things. Having said that:

1). Until there is absolute evidence that aliens have visited Earth, either in the past or currently, its good to have 2 sides to the argument to keep everyone thinking.

2). If the general public is not supposed to know about an ET presence on Earth, it stands to reason that people would be employed solely to try to bring doubt to all ET related stories on news sites, blogs, etc. Some of the postings pose a great scientific rebuttal to the current issue. Others are completely ignorant, yet sadly they still convince people.

3). The only real debate, in my opinion, is whether ETs have had any contact with this planet. If anyone ever says to you, " I don't 'believe' in aliens," just smile and walk away. Anyone myopic enough to believe that in the vastness of time and space Earth humans are the only sentient beings...well its not worth exhausting yourself lol. Allow them their ignorance, I'm not sure they could handle the truth.

However, sometimes people don't actually mean that. My "tough guy" boss used to always joke and laugh at me about my theories while claiming he didn't believe in aliens. Finally, one night I got him to listen to the math about our universe, and he clarified by saying that what he meant was that we are as high up in evolution as possible. His exact quote, "there may be some crazy looking, six legged, reptile creatures on another planet working like we are, but they're not flying around space." Even though I obviously disagree, I respect that opinion.

I will never respect, "I don't believe in aliens." It's laughable...

4). Finally, and this idea is kinda stolen from X-Files, but what if the conspiracy is that there isn't any known contact with any ETs but in their effort to control the questioning faction of the public, they lead us on some wild goose chase. While we believers chase after their manufactured evidence, they have succeeded in diverting our attention away from their true evil agenda.


Anyway, I've been following this site for years but this is my first post. Sorry it was so long but if anyone wants to chat about ETs, science, or anything else please feel free to let me know!

reply to post by AlienView


I really think your post would be better received if posted the top 3 cases you feel have the most evidence.

1. Flight 1628 in Canada
www.abovetopsecret.com...
Pilot and crew confirm the UFO, Radar confirms the UFO. Pilot alarmed enough to make heading change.

Pilot did some interesting renditions of the ufo if you used google images to search for "flight 1628"

2. Phoenix Lights
www.abovetopsecret.com...
Witnesses are many, flare explanation is a joke, Governor at time has gone on the record with some interesting comments.

3. Trumbell county police sighting.
www.abovetopsecret.com...
Not the mass sighting like the Phoenix lights, but well documented by recordings and multiple witnesses.


There are many more , if people are interested, I think they will wind up believing. But I see no need to get up in arms about it if not.

Some of the many more can be found here...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

And of course we have one of he most famous of all noteworthy debunkers who eventually saw the error of being a debunker:

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Dr. Josef Allen Hynek (May 1, 1910 – April 27, 1986) was a United States astronomer, professor, and ufologist.[1] He is perhaps best remembered for his UFO research. Hynek acted as scientific adviser to UFO studies undertaken by the U.S. Air Force under three consecutive names:
Project Sign (1947–1949),
Project Grudge (1949–1952), and
Project Blue Book (1952 to 1969).
For decades afterwards, he conducted his own independent UFO research, developing the Close Encounter classification system, and is widely considered the father of the concept of scientific analysis of both reports and, especially, trace evidence purportedly left by UFOs

In response to many "flying saucer" sightings (later unidentified flying objects), the United States Air Force established Project Sign in 1948; this later became Project Grudge, which in turn became Project Blue Book in 1952. Hynek was contacted by Project Sign to act as scientific consultant for their investigation of UFO reports. Hynek would study a UFO report and subsequently decide if its description of the UFO suggested a known astronomical object.
When Project Sign hired Hynek, he was initially skeptical of UFO reports. Hynek suspected that UFO reports were made by unreliable witnesses, or by persons who had misidentified man-made or natural objects. In 1948, Hynek said that "the whole subject seems utterly ridiculous," and described it as a fad that would soon pass.[3]
For the first few years of his UFO studies, Hynek could safely be described as a debunker. He thought that a great many UFOs could be explained as prosaic phenomena misidentified by an observer. But beyond such fairly obvious cases, Hynek often stretched logic to nearly the breaking point in an attempt to explain away as many UFO reports as possible. In his 1977 book, Hynek admitted that he enjoyed his role as a debunker for the Air Force. He also noted that debunking was what the Air Force expected of him.

Turnaround
Hynek began occasionally disagreeing publicly with the conclusions of Blue Book. By the early 1960s—after about a decade and a half of study—Clark writes that "Hynek's apparent turnaround on the UFO question was an open secret."[4] Only after Blue Book was formally dissolved did Hynek speak more openly about his "turnaround."

UFO origin hypotheses

In 1973, at the MUFON annual symposium, held in Akron, Ohio, Hynek began to express his doubts regarding the extraterrestrial (formerly "interplanetary" or "intergalactic") hypothesis. His main point led him to the title of his speech: "The Embarrassment of the Riches." He was aware that the quantity of UFO sightings was much higher than the Project Blue Book statistics. Just this puzzled him. "A few good sightings a year, over the world, would bolster the extraterrestrial hypothesis—but many thousands every year? From remote regions of space? And to what purpose? To scare us by stopping cars, and disturbing animals, and puzzling us with their seemingly pointless antics?"[9]
In 1975, in a paper presented to the Joint Symposium of the American Institute of Aeronautics & Astronautics in Los Angeles, he wrote, "If you object, I ask you to explain – quantitatively, not qualitatively – the reported phenomena of materialization and dematerialization, of shape changes, of the noiseless hovering in the Earth's gravitational field, accelerations that – for an appreciable mass – require energy sources far beyond present capabilities – even theoretical capabilities, the well-known and often reported E-M (sc. electro-magnetic interference) effect, the psychic effects on percipients, including purported telepathic communications."[10]
In 1977, at the First International UFO Congress in Chicago, Hynek presented his thoughts in his speech "What I really believe about UFOs." "I do believe," he said, "that the UFO phenomenon as a whole is real, but I do not mean necessarily that it's just one thing. We must ask whether the diversity of observed UFOs . . . all spring from the same basic source, as do weather phenomena, which all originate in the atmosphere", or whether they differ "as a rain shower differs from a meteor, which in turn differs from a cosmic-ray shower." We must not ask, Hynek said, what hypothesis can explain the most facts, but we must ask, which hypothesis can explain the most puzzling facts.[11]
"There is sufficient evidence to defend both the ETI and the EDI hypothesis," Hynek continued. As evidence for the ETI (extraterrestrial intelligence) he mentioned, as examples, the radar cases as good evidence of something solid, and the physical-trace cases. Then he turned to defending the EDI (extradimensional intelligence) hypothesis. Besides the aspect of materialization and dematerialization he cited the "poltergeist" phenomenon experienced by some people after a close encounter; the photographs of UFOs, some times on only one frame, not seen by the witnesses; the changing form right before the witnesses' eyes; the puzzling question of telepathic communication; or that in close encounters of the third kind the creatures seem to be at home in earth's gravity and atmosphere; the sudden stillness in the presence of the craft; levitation of cars or persons; the development by some of psychic abilities after an encounter. "Do we have two aspects of one phenomenon or two different sets of phenomena?" Hynek asked.[12]
Finally he introduced a third hypothesis. "I hold it entirely possible," he said, "that a technology exists, which encompasses both the physical and the psychic, the material and the mental. There are stars that are millions of years older than the sun. There may be a civilization that is millions of years more advanced than man's. We have gone from Kitty Hawk to the moon in some seventy years, but it's possible that a million-year-old civilization may know something that we don't ... I hypothesize an 'M&M' technology encompassing the mental and material realms. The psychic realms, so mysterious to us today, may be an ordinary part of an advanced technology."[13]

See whole article here:
en.wikipedia.org...

And finally and in my opinion, one reason we have so little, if any physical proof of alien visitation and intelligence may have to do with the nature of what we are dealing with which may not have a physical or corporal presence in our universe/dimension. For as one of the greatest physicists of the 20th Century Albert Einstein said:

“Concerning matter, we have been all wrong. What we have called matter is energy, whose vibration has been so lowered as to be perceptible to the senses. There is no matter.”

So now you see them and then you don't, but make no mistake about the presence of these alien intelligences they are very real - DENY IGNORANCE and deny the debunkers.

-AlienView

It's interesting to note that most of these 'alien-related' government groups and agencies were started after WWII – about the time of the Cold War. America and USSR were both involved in developing high altitude spying aircraft in deep secrecy, covered up by misleading and spurious code names of the agencies and projects that supported them.

Slightly more than half of the total world-wide active visitation/abduction/witness accounts are from America, who just happened to be most active and successful in developing their spy apparatus, with massive budgets and multiple agencies responsible for them.

Couple that with the huge rise in sci-fi movies during the 50s/60s and the general paranoia at that time and you have a perfect cocktail for wild invention, with aliens being tied to many subjects – like Egyptian hieroglyphs, for example, where absolutely no correlation or suggestion was there previously.

reply to post by AlienView

AlienView


And finally and in my opinion, one reason we have so little, if any physical proof of alien visitation and intelligence may have to do with the nature of what we are dealing with which may not have a physical or corporal presence in our universe/dimension.

Or... now stay with me here... it may have to do with the lack of Alien visitation.

Yeah, wild speculation, I know... but still within the realm of possibilities, no matter how remote.

AlienView
So now you see them and then you don't, but make no mistake about the presence of these alien intelligences they are very real - DENY IGNORANCE and deny the debunkers.

-AlienView

Maybe the thread title should have been "Are Alien Bunk Purveyors trying to Embrace Ignorance or Are they trying to Seek the Truth?"

AlienView
So now you see them and then you don't, but make no mistake about the presence of these alien intelligences they are very real - DENY IGNORANCE and deny the debunkers.

-AlienView

How very convenient for you. Prove it.

About this 'deny ignorance' phrase bandied about here all too often; are you calling me ignorant? I don't like that at all and take offense at that statement and what is assumed by it. I use fact, logic and science to form my judgements – what do you use?

I would say people who use YouTube and other unproven 'proof', statements by people I've never met, an overwhelming and desperate need to believe, an over-riding paranoia, constant suspicion of others and a mistrust of authority more like a description of ignorance. But I don't know you so I wouldn't dare to presume.

reply to post by draknoir2


From a hard-science point of view, I definitely agree with your point. On the other hand, if we are to consider the evidence and claims of close encounters, it becomes clear 'they' work in secret, behind the scenes of contemporary social reality, for whatever reason(s) that may well defy such anthropocentric myopism, and so it can be expected little in the way of evidence would emerge. I suggest that it makes sense to look at more 'unconventional' approaches to see what these methods have to say, in parallel with hard-science and social science.

This is without mention of the obvious pitfalls inherent in actually carrying out these research methods themselves.

pilotx
reply to post by draknoir2

 

From a hard-science point of view, I definitely agree with your point. On the other hand, if we are to consider the evidence and claims of close encounters, it becomes clear 'they' work in secret, behind the scenes of contemporary social reality, for whatever reason(s) that may well defy such anthropocentric myopism, and so it can be expected little in the way of evidence would emerge. I suggest that it makes sense to look at more 'unconventional' approaches to see what these methods have to say, in parallel with hard-science and social science.

This is without mention of the obvious pitfalls inherent in actually carrying out these research methods themselves.

The convenience of the secret, invisible, and unverifiable.

pilotx
reply to post by draknoir2

 

From a hard-science point of view, I definitely agree with your point.. I suggest that it makes sense to look at more 'unconventional' approaches to see what these methods have to say, in parallel with hard-science and social science.

This is without mention of the obvious pitfalls inherent in actually carrying out these research methods themselves.

Now you've got my attention. I'm curious, what types of unconventional approaches do you have in mind?

reply to post by AlienView


There is no evidence that any aliens are visting Earth.

There is no evidence that there is not alien life in the galaxy, and most people think the existence of such life is probable. Science almost daily comes up with more evidence supporting this.

Saying that UFOs are not aliens means you refute alien life in the same way that saying Iain M Banks novels were not written by Shakespeare means you refute Elizabethan plays

reply to post by JadeStar


Right from the start, when the unconventional methods are mentioned, people generally tune out. It is more convenient to deny the whole range of phenomena off-hand than to invest energy and attention in something that is well-known for hoaxes, misattribution, fraud, delusions, ridicule, suppression of information, active disinformation, etc.

An unconventional method then is to press on despite, and at some points specifically because of, active opposition. Finding the inner drive to keep inquiring by any and all available means is a personal thing. The how or why of it doesn't matter. It's whether one chooses to press on that's the test, on the constant backdrop that one may indeed fail to make much or any headway given the elusive nature of the subject. Hope has to be alive, that among all the noise, at least 1% of it is a real, even if distorted or fragmented, view of something much bigger, and no matter how small of a piece of the puzzle, it begins to make a difference that like butterfly effect ripples outwards.

What's the most advanced element or platform within our reach to help tackle such questions? Some will say various technological equipment, such as telescopes, quantum computers, particle accelerators, artificial intelligence, etc., built on an incredible legacy of philosophy and scientific breakthroughs that are ever-expanding.

Nothing wrong with that, nevermind social problems of unequal access and distribution, but I propose the human body itself as a whole is and will always be the most advanced platform, instrument, vehicle on which everything else has always depended on and will only ever be an extension of. Not a big leap therefore to propose that all other unconventional methods are an extension of testing and applying its capacities towards this inquiry. Not a unique idea in the least.

Your other topic mentions what quality of evidence one finds acceptable. My suggestion would be repeatable first-hand experience, one that can be shared with others in everyday life. This isn't speculation, but can be backed up by some who have come forth publicly such as Jim Sparks. How would one reach that level of personal contact? Skyfloating put out a topic or two on this idea. I've been following up with something similar at another place, but in a much broader and more general approach. Got to tread carefully though, since it seems it's a very diverse phenomenon, if you follow what I mean. It's one thing to dabble, altogether another to prepare in whatever manner that seems appropriate. Whoever's taking interest in human intelligence is inadvertently passing along the message that there's untapped potential, be it for exploitation or facilitation.

I'm sure that's clear enough about unconventional approaches, which I like to keep open ended, since narrowing it down to what I or others use makes it seem like that's the only way, when in fact I believe multi-angled approaches are not only helpful, but necessary, if any practical headway is to be made beyond second and third hand accounts.

pilotx


Nothing wrong with that, nevermind social problems of unequal access and distribution, but I propose the human body itself as a whole is and will always be the most advanced platform, instrument, vehicle on which everything else has always depended on and will only ever be an extension of. Not a big leap therefore to propose that all other unconventional methods are an extension of testing and applying its capacities towards this inquiry. Not a unique idea in the least.
I'm sure that's clear enough about unconventional approaches, which I like to keep open ended, since narrowing it down to what I or others use makes it seem like that's the only way, when in fact I believe multi-angled approaches are not only helpful, but necessary, if any practical headway is to be made beyond second and third hand accounts.

You seem to be going to great lengths to avoid giving specific examples. Could it be that they are on a par with channeling, scrying and dowsing?

reply to post by InhaleExhale


It's an assumption that there are smarter people than you or I? No it's not.

Draknoir2, just trying to avoid derailing or going off-topic. It's all so preliminary that I wouldn't make a topic about it. Besides, I see contact as of secondary importance and for the purpose of personal development, which I believe must come first in order to connect with higher intelligence.

More specific methods have to tie in with a long-term path to self-development. Going in solely with the intent to obtain personal evidence would mean neglecting this, which might lower the chances of it working, and if it does, could end up not being very desirable.

AlienView
How can the alien presence be seen if those who would deny even its possibility blind you with rhetoric to the truth of what is occurring and what you are seeing?

This is a good point. Like I mentioned before, since if what goes on takes place at a higher plane out of our current limited reach, it's like the 2D stickperson trying to get a grip on a 3D object. Budd Hopkins and Karol Rainey illustrate this really well time and again. Without taking a leap, having some hope, one could never even imagine the existence of something in a higher dimension, much less find ways to interact and establish repeatable first-hand contact by leveling the playing field. Again, this is not an original idea, but can be found everywhere:

Threads by Skyfloating
Tuning in to Extraterrestrial Contact
www.abovetopsecret.com...

The ET-Contact Manual
www.abovetopsecret.com...

ET-Channelers: Con Artists vs. Genuine Messengers
www.abovetopsecret.com...

An author that's been mentioned here before, Lisette Larkins, writes specifically about this.

Brad Steiger also highlights the importance of grounding, and of holding on to whatever path or self-development that resonates in order to find stability. John E. Mack mentions the overwhelming aspects of the transition to this higher plane, and of a possible progressive aspect to it, as does Jim Sparks, Kim Carlsberg, and others. In Passport to the Cosmos, he outlines the ongoing interactions of various natives and shamans of different traditions, something that's been spanning back into their history and legends. Even Karla Turner in her own encounters would walk up to a hill and try to invite contact.

Take the use of magick, as one specific example out of countless paths. I know next to nothing about it, but have heard certain popular methods being used specifically in contact scenarios, such as the middle pillar exercise in order to ground. It's described in:

Gradius Maximus
Writing the ATS Grimoire - Communal sharing of all wisdom Occult and Paranormal
www.abovetopsecret.com...

It isn't a big stretch to create one's own methods based on what one comes across. Call it an eclectic approach. In many ways they fit the profile of magick whenever there's visualization, concentration-relaxation, trance, conviction, specific intentions, release, and positive emotions.

This doesn't mean accepting blind belief, only that if a working hypothesis requires an ongoing leap of faith in order to test a theory, it may not be conventional, but this isn't dealing with something conventional to begin with. If this can be replicated across a number of people, it means you're dealing with something after all. Take Michael Raduga for one, who does propose a theory (it isn't real), and sets out a path (a test) to verify this, not just himself, but with many others. At one point, he does say he was pulled out of body, but then managed to take control. Other researchers in the field draw different conclusions.

You are right. Shakespeares saying " Methinks thou dost protest too much" says it all. If I doubted the alien presence before, I dont now! Good Job!

And yet for all of the abductions and channelling there's almost no new, verfiable information about our universe given to us by these "advanced ETs".

It's about what one would expect if we're talking about delusional humans.

reply to post by pilotx


You will never prove the existence of a paranormal phenomenon through metaphysics and pseudoscience.

You might reinforce your personal convictions or affect the BELIEFS of others, but you will have proved nothing.