"If I ever do stand before Jesus I'd thank him. Thank him for making it soo much easier for me to corrupt the masses. With all the zelots he allowed to live I gave them blades, told them what heatens the Middle Easterners were, and thus I began the Crusaides. With those he let preist tell to beleive anything as long as the word Jesus comes first I gave them maltoves, told them that you said that abortion is murder, and thus the clinics burned and doctors died. Finaly I'd thank him so much for the best gift of all, other faiths, for with them I was able to drive his followers into a frenzy of hate, and thus persicution began."

- an avatar of Lucifer, from a short story I'm writing.

Just thought this was a nice place to put it.

P.S.
I'd say somthing like that too.

i wonder why people avoid the simplicity of accepting jesus?

Originally posted by Son of the lost maji
i wonder why people avoid the simplicity of accepting jesus?

Because some people choose to question the truth/validity of such things.

Why didn't you do anything while your name and teachings were co-opted my evil men?

Why did you allow all the death and misery that was done in your name?

I would tell him that is is too late to fix all of the problems that have been created in your name and and your absence.

What the hell have you been doing for these past 2000 years?.

Good message that Jesus had, unfortuantly the messengers we've had since he left have been dissapointing to say the least.

I'll shrug and exhale a sigh, and say
"Oh well, I lived my life out good, but if it wasn't good enough for you, sorry."
And take whatever punishment, if any, they recieve (blinking out of existenceness, turning into a bug in my next life, going to hell etc)

But honestly, I dont care. I dont feel like living and worrying about the future, or the past, I just want to live day by day doing what I like to do, enjoy what little peaceful times a mortal soul has on this planet, and then, when the reaper takes me down the road, accept it calmly, look back, and nod with satisfying numbness.

Religion is too wrapped up to the rights and wrongs of life, and scare tactics and concerning thoughts of after-life etc. I say just live your life the way you want to live aslong as it doesnt affect others (mentally or physically) badly. If jesus existed or not back then, dont know, honestly dont care. Does god(s) exist? Maybe, possibly, who knows. But hey, if someone wants to condemn me for simply living in peace, well to be frank, screw them. If a God condemns me for that, he's not a very compassionate god, and not one I would want to even blink at thinking of worshiping.

My most common response about god is routinely: "I don't care, one way or another."

My second most common response is: "I'm sure if god(s) want anything from me, it/he/she/they will let me know."

If I die and find out Jesus does exist, then I'd certainly admit he existed. And if he could prove to me that the Christian god's course of action was ultimately the best, most moral course of action, then I'd admit that, too.

But I wouldn't apologize for how I have formulated my beliefs or my morality. I refuse to be responsible for figuring out which of the many documented faiths, if any, is the correct one.

My going to hell or not is not part of the basis for my moral/ethical beliefs. I try do what I think is right because I think it's right, not because it's going to give me a reward in some afterlife.

That's what I'd say. If Jesus didn't like it, then I guess I'd go to hell and suffer for eternity.

That's the breaks.

I think doing what is right gives me and everyone else rewards in this life. That's enough for me.

Originally posted by Thorfinn Skullsplitter
If god and jesus really does exist, and that supposed fateful day ever comes of my judgement, I would ask one question, and follow with a statement...

"Why did you ever make yourself known to humans?

If the bible is true, I believe you to be a vengeful, hateful, sadistic being with no true love for anything but death. I am glad I did not worship nor believe in you, for I could think of no fate worse then loving a thing as grotesque as you are..."

Bu Bu Bu Bu BULL .... BULL#! You would be too busy keeping the urine and # in you body.

Originally posted by infovacume

Originally posted by Thorfinn Skullsplitter
If god and jesus really does exist, and that supposed fateful day ever comes of my judgement, I would ask one question, and follow with a statement...

"Why did you ever make yourself known to humans?

If the bible is true, I believe you to be a vengeful, hateful, sadistic being with no true love for anything but death. I am glad I did not worship nor believe in you, for I could think of no fate worse then loving a thing as grotesque as you are..."

Bu Bu Bu Bu BULL .... BULL#! You would be too busy keeping the urine and # in you body.

How would he have urine and # in his body if he was dead ????

Well, I for one would exclaim:

Holy crap, it's Jesus!

The real question is what will *you* do when you find out that the REAL god is Vishnu or Buddha or Krishna or whatever? Or better yet, what will happen when you die and there is nothing? NOTHING.

I'm sorry but I did my best with what I had to work with. I tried to use the tools that I was given, a body, mind and spirit. I've tried to figure out your message by trying to find out what you really said. It hasn't been easy since it's been so long since you were here, and leave it to MAN to put his spin on things. It's also been hard to find the truth since there are so many contradicting interpetations of the TRUTH. Everybody seemed to have THE TRUTH, and only their interpetation was the correct one. Now I had a hard time with this one because the proof to show that they were right was to use the same book that everybody else does and a lot of times the exact same verse, but come up with completely different meanings. But if this book is the one and only TRUTH then how can all of these interpetations be correct? When they say the other interpitaions are wroung and only they have the real one. So I did what I thought you wanted me to do, to try and find the TRUTH. I guess I didn't find it, HOWEVER, I am just as sure that none of us know for sure. I was raised a Pentacostal, I am very familiar with the concept of fire and brimstone. I feel that my interpetation is correct, you KNOW that your interpetation is correct which I am happy for you. The reason I say I FEEL I am correct is that I am still searching and looking, sometimes it re-inforces sometimes it makes me wonder but it always makes me think and thats the important thing

Religion, IMO, is a handy dandy way to control masses of people. It works, and it has a history of working. It's the greatest con job in the history of the world. What else could possibly be used to make money hand over fist, influence social beliefs, and invoke pointless wars? Nothing else could. It's the ultimate tool of control. I believe in God, a creator, although I think the Bible is pure fiction.

>What will you do or say, in the end-judgement day-before our God, when God asks the question of one "I sent my son, did you not know him?"

BTW, I was baptised Catholic, had my comunion, etc..
But still, I would honestly start by proclaiming, "Holy $@^#!" After collecting myself, I would ask him if the Bible is accurate. If he said that it is, I would admit that I was wrong to not believe in him, but I wouldn't apologize for not worshipping him.

I would tell him that he does not deserve my respect, let alone worship. In the very pages of the Bible, it clearly states how he commited mass murder, and ordered his followers to commit mass murder (like Hitler & Manson did). Murderers don't deserve respect. By the way, isn't not killing people one of the 10 commandments? I also don't respect hypocrites.

I would tell him that his initial intensions were good, but his ego turned him into a conceited, ruthless, evil dictator. Reference: Worship me or burn in hell. I cannot worship someone who uses fear as a means to motivate. Wife-beaters typically use those means. And no, I don't respect wife-beaters either.

If he would let all that go and still presented me with the hell or heaven option.... buring for eternity doesn't sound inviting, so I guess I'd learn how to say bbbaaahhhhh and become one of his mindless sheep.

However, when I meet God, and I ask him if the Bible is accurate, I really believe he'll say, to paraphrase, "Of course not. Let me ask you something, and ponder it with common sense. After creating a universe billions of light-years wide, containing billions of galaxies, housing billions of stars, circled by billions of planets, do you really think I would spend all my time on Earth consumed by the demand to be worshiped? I'm God for crying out loud, I'm not that insecure."

JMO

[Edited on 5-5-2004 by D_Hoffman]

If, in the end, I'm wrong about Jesus then it won't really matter; but, if I'm right...then it will

Look, the Bible is a great guide in how to respect your fellow man and how to live a good life. And if you live by it then good things naturally come to you. It's a common sense thing.

[Edited on 6-5-2004 by Leonidas2]

ok, so i'm standing at the pearly gates and Saint Bouncer says "I sent my son, did you not know him?"
i say: "aren't I your son?"

Originally posted by Al_uh_Looyah
ok, so i'm standing at the pearly gates and Saint Bouncer says "I sent my son, did you not know him?"
i say: "aren't I your son?"

I'm going to vote for this as best all-time answer to this question!

If I was wrong, then I pray I erred on the side of good.

G

Will the Son of Man find faith when he comes???????

Its there somewhere in the bible.....i think its a rhetorical question.....NO HE WON'T!

So many people complain that religion seems to take away freedom of thought then ask "if God exist why did he allow this/that to happen?"

If God intervened in everything then that we ever done then that would be a real lack of freedom of thought.

Just because God wants us to follow certain laws and morals doesn't mean he will make us. In the end we will be judged by our actions.

I'm a not very good catholic.... I believe in God and try to live as Jesus taught, but tis difficult sometimes. I don't blame God for that. I make my own choices, just try me best.

Originally posted by weemart
believe in God and try to live as Jesus taught, but tis difficult sometimes.

Yeh it must be, it's hard to own slaves nowadays!
Apprently the bible premotes this:

A disciple is not above the teacher, nor a slave above the master (Matt. 10:24)

Let all who are under the yoke of slavery regard their masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be blasphemed. Those who have believing masters must not be disrespectful to them on the ground that they are members of the church; rather they must serve them all the more, since those who benefit by their service are believers and beloved. Teach and urge these duties. Whoever teaches otherwise and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that is in accordance with godliness (Tim. 6:1-5)

Exodus 21:20-21 "If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property."

Leviticus 25:44-46 "Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly."


Oh yeh, and sexism is frowned upon too so you can't really do much of that:

Timothy 2:11-14 "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."

Corinthians 14:34 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

Ecclesiastes 25:22 "Of the woman came the beginning of sin, and through her we all die." (from the Catholics Bible)

Oh and persecution of homosexuals , can't do that either in modern society. .

Leviticus 18:22:
"You shall not lie with a male as those who lie with a female; it is an abomination."

Leviticus 20:13:
"If a man lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination and they shall surely be put to death."


No wonder you cannot follow your religion friend, half of the stuff isn't allowed anymore.

won't happen.

Of all things God announced in the Old Testament, the book of Job, is,

"You will fear me, for I am your creator. Who are you to question what I do?"

Think about that. Sure you have been given a free will choice, but that doesn't take away the decision God makes.

In the same book, he says, "I MAY forgive, but I do not forget."

Ever wonder who the first pesron put to death by the jews was?

It was a soldier named Achan.

Who was his judge?
Not a council, not court, not a King, it was God. For a bar of gold and a remnant of cloth he was stoned to death. (Makes you wonder what you're going to do about all those office pens when God comes, right? )

There is not a church, nor any amount of tithing that is going to sway God's decision. Tithing was a Paulian priniciple. The tithe was the first fruits of your labor. Unblemished lambs, rams, sheep, doves, shewbread for the altar. Dare you to put a goat in the collection plate this Sunday.

What we want now is Jesus to come save us. But mankind had a chance and blew it. They listened to the Pharisees and the scribes, whom Jesus condemned 7 times.
He asks, "Woe be unto ye for you have laid men with burdens grievous to be born, how shall ye escape the condemnation of hell?"

Who are the Pharisees and the scribes? The pastors, priests, ministers, whatever you call the leader of the church. The scribes were those who worked in law.
So to the leaders of the churches and the policiticans in the greatest sense, Jesus calls a condemnation of hell.
The fun part: is how shall ye escape the condemnation?
The churches today preach unlimited forgiveness because it pays, but Jesus? He didn't preach unlimited forgiveness. He did condemn those who work in law for placing burdens on men without conscience, without thought, and no wisdom. Then, if I was making money off teaching the gospel, I might choose to omit a few verses in order to build that new church, or to get a raise, a new car, maybe a house.

It's all up to you. You can swallow the camel they feed you, or strain at the gnat. Now the camel is easy to see, but the gnat is a great reward.

G

What would I say to God? I would say, "I prayed every day in the name of Jesus. I did as my heart bid me to do. Now, are you going to send me to hell because I lived my life as a partnered gay man?"

There doesn't seem to be any easy answer to this question. Because there doesn't seem to be any one way to follow Jesus. If 'accepting Jesus' resulted in a simple state of holy knowledge, then I daresay this thread wouldn't even BE here. If being a Christian meant one thing and one thing only, then I daresay there would be only ONE Christian church. But as it is, we have such a multitude of thought to choose from. Catholic or Protestant? Baptist or Pentecostal? Presbyterian or Lutheran? If Lutheran, which synod? I think these splits and divisions indicate that it is virtually impossible to say there is ONE way to be a Christian, ONE way to read the Bible (which version, anyway?) and ONE way to answer that question.

I don't believe that God can be boiled down into four spiritual laws. This is what I learned from Campus Crusade: you witness to unbelievers following 'The Four Spiritual Laws.' I need not go into them here - anyone curious about what they are can just plug 'four spiritual laws' into Google and read what comes up. I think God is not about spiritual laws. My experience shows me that when one tries to codify God into laws that's when the killing starts. Because if God is about laws, then what do you do with the lawbreakers? Wasn't the old covenant about laws? Isn't the new covenant about daily revelation and living in the ever-changing, ever-breathing reality of constant inspiration?

Someone on this thread said something about God having blood on His hands. I do think it is odd that we are not supposed to do the things that God supposedly did all through the Old Testament. (Torah, to our Jewish friends) And I find it exceedingly troubling that in the name of 'God' or 'Jesus' our last 2000 years has been stained by brutal and vicious bloodshed. From the Crusades to the Holocaust to our current administration's horrible conduct in Iraq: we have invoked the name of God to help us wield our flaming swords. I find this current administration very troubling indeed: with John Ashcroft and George W. Bush professing to be 'Christians' - with the 'religious right' rallying behind Bushco and its machinations, crying 'holy war' against the Taliban and Al Qaeda and Islamic fundamentalism. I find it blasphemous that George W. Bush claims to be led by God. I find it ludicrous and hypocritical that with one hand our administration seems bent on smashing Islamic fundamentalism, while with the other hand building up Christian fundamentalism back home. Maybe God doesn't have blood on His hands. But those who claim to be doing His bidding certainly do.

As I said on another thread: if George W. Bush represents what it is to be a Christian, then I want no part of it.

--- happy Sunday!

Fortinbras