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10 FACTS You Must Know About The Jesuits

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posted on Dec, 10 2013 @ 08:49 PM
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Going to take a minute to follow up on my disinfo claim above, did a quick Google search on Lincoln and the Jesuits, most of it tied back to Rense, checked a couple of the other of the guys sources, fundie christian websites, at least one was SDA.

I pretty much let people spout what they will on here, but check the dates, and how well prepared he was. Nothing more than a google search, and some org says, "We gotta shut that down", unfortunately in this case they made it very obvious.

Sad Eyed Lady, Charles1952, and several others have made this a very interesting conversation. That being said, the shills need to be shut down.




posted on Dec, 10 2013 @ 08:53 PM
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reply to post by Fravashi
 


Thank you for the kind words. I think that is the highest compliment I have been paid at ATS, at least I feel that way at the moment. All the credit goes to the Holy Spirit who is my constant companion, as I prayed for what I wrote to be from Him, not me.

Forgiveness always. - It sets you free.

Like Jesus said: "They know not what they do."

Forgiveness - Matthew West video



edit on 12/10/2013 by sad_eyed_lady because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 10 2013 @ 10:17 PM
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adjensen
reply to post by BlueMoonJoe
 



This is a direct theme running back to Luther himself. What is your objection?

That it is indicative of him being a Presbyterian Minister with an axe to grind, writing inflammatory books in a period of anti-Catholicism in the US and UK. I'm sure even you would say that he is not an unbiased source.


Titling a book after a Lutheran theme is indicative of him being a Presbyterian minister? Impressive bit of divination there. I had to google it to find that out. As to the inflammatory axe-grinding, may I ask what it is regarding the text that allowed you came to this conclusion?

Regardless, I am not sure how he is seen as biased, yet your Jesuit university professor somehow isn't. Please explain how that works. When I see the following in the description of his book, I see a clear bias: "The teachings and redemptive works of Jesus as told in the Gospels are expressed by the Church in a coherent and consistent body of doctrine, the likes of which cannot be found in any other Christian body."

How is this less biased than Wylie? Just because you may agree with the bias doesn't negate its being there.


"All imbued with the doctrine of murder"? What is the source of that?


Footnote 1 in the text below.

The lawfulness of killing excommunicated, that is Protestant, kings, the Jesuit writers have been at great pains to maintain, and by a great variety of arguments to defend and enforce. The proof is as abundant as it is painful. M. de la Chalotais reports to the Parliament of Bretagne, as the result of his examination of the laws and doctrines of the Jesuits, that on this point there is a complete and startling unanimity in their teaching. By the same logical track do the whole host of Jesuit writers arrive at the same terrible conclusion, the slaughter, namely, of the sovereign on whom the Pope has pronounced sentence of deposition. If he shall take meekly his extrusion from Power, and seek neither to resist nor revenge his being hurled from his throne, his life may be spared; but should “he persist in disobedience,” says M. de la Chalotais, himself a Papist, and addressing a Popish Parliament, “he may be treated as a tyrant, in which case anybody may kill him.[1] Such is the course of reasoning established by all authors of the society, who have written ex professo on these subjects–Bellarmine, Suarez, Molina, Mariana, Santarel–all the Ultramontanes without exception, since the establishment of the society.”[2]



"Their numbers have prodigiously increased since"? What does prodigiously mean, what's his source for that claim, and what does it matter, anyway, since there is no citation behind "All imbued with the doctrine of murder".


You've lost me. Why would a footnote contain a citation when it IS a citation? He is explaining in the text in great detail what the doctrine of murder is.


You're citing a 150 year old piece of hate text that doesn't have credible sources behind it and was written by a biased source, but because someone bothered to publish it, you think that makes it credible? What's next, The Awful Disclosures of Maria Monk? Something by Alberto Rivera? Maybe a quote from The Da Vinci Code?


It really does help to read the stuff before you do the knee-jerk do on it. Given the way you keep misfiring, you are really not in a position to question someone else's credibility. You are pimping this idea that he is going off on some wild-assed screed ala Alex Jones or some such, but the merest glance at the actual text illustrates how far afield this assumption is.

He is quoting a Catholic addressing a Catholic Parliament regarding the Jesuit doctrine of murder based upon the long-standing body of work by eminent Jesuits. He also adds examples from those writings:


On what grounds, the Jesuits demand, can the killing of one who is no longer a king be called regicide? Suarez tells us that when a king is deposed he is no longer to be regarded as a king, but as a tyrant: “he therefore loses his authority, and from that moment may be lawfully killed.” Nor is the opinion of the Jesuit Mariana less decided. Speaking of a prince, he says: “If he should overthrow the religion of the country, and introduce a public enemy within the State, I shall never consider that man to have done wrong, who, favorting the public wishes, would attempt to kill him… It is useful that princes should be made to know, that if they oppress the State and become intolerable by their vices and their pollution, they hold their lives upon this tenure, that to put them to death is not only laudable, but a glorious action… It is a glorious thing to exterminate this pestilent and mischievous race from the community of men.”[3]

He quotes primary Jesuit sources to support his points Your assertion that he does not use credible sources is baseless.



posted on Dec, 10 2013 @ 10:34 PM
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reply to post by BubbaJoe
 


Heh. Ok, I registered 5 days ago and responded to this post. That part I get. But you lost me as to it being disinfo because it was too convenient. Uh, too convenient for what?



posted on Dec, 10 2013 @ 10:49 PM
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"I have decided to stick to love...Hate is too great a burden to bear." - Martin Luther King Jr.
reply to post by BlueMoonJoe
 



posted on Dec, 10 2013 @ 10:49 PM
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BubbaJoe
Going to take a minute to follow up on my disinfo claim above, did a quick Google search on Lincoln and the Jesuits, most of it tied back to Rense, checked a couple of the other of the guys sources, fundie christian websites, at least one was SDA.

I pretty much let people spout what they will on here, but check the dates, and how well prepared he was. Nothing more than a google search, and some org says, "We gotta shut that down", unfortunately in this case they made it very obvious.

Sad Eyed Lady, Charles1952, and several others have made this a very interesting conversation. That being said, the shills need to be shut down.


Yo, play fair. Am I "the guy" you are referring to? I didn't bring anything from Rense here (All else aside wtf is with that guy's hair?), but I am guilty of the fundie and SDA stuff, although I didn't know it was SDA until after the dog guy here pointed it out. I still don't know squat about them beyond they don't like Jesuits and I just learned that here as well.

I still don't get the dates being convenient thing, but I'm sorry about being prepared. I didn't know that was bad. But I am clueless about the org shutdown bit. Wtf is that about?

If I gotta be a shill, I just want to know who I am shilling for. That's only fair, right? And, hey, this thread was dead before I dropped in my all too convenient timing, so let's be clear about who is making this thread interesting--the prepared guy who apparently knows way too much and way too little at the same time.



posted on Dec, 10 2013 @ 11:04 PM
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This is not my thread, so I don't even have that authority over it. I'm a little saddened by what it has become. I'm a fan of conversation and exploring ideas, but that is no longer happening here.

I stated my position here:
www.abovetopsecret.com...
and in the post immediately following.

I appreciate my fellow poster's passion and can understand to some degree his hatred for the Church and the Jesuits. Apparently, that same passion has blinded him to what others are saying and what has been written here. It's unfortunate from my point of view, but as I said, understandable.

Since the OP's charges have been sufficiently dealt with, unless another poster comes in who is willing to talk about this, may I suggest a slight change in topic to one of these:

Why have the Jesuit numbers fallen from 30,000 to 17,000 in the last 60 years?

Have they been pulled back from the "Liberation Theology" craziness?

Why did they get involved in it in the first place?

Is there role in the future returning to education and service to the Church, or are they better suited to some new mission?

I wouldn't mind getting information on any of these topics, or any other that you can think of.



posted on Dec, 10 2013 @ 11:21 PM
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sad_eyed_lady
reply to post by BlueMoonJoe
 

Could you find that for me? This is all I read about your thoughts on this matter: It is wrong to conflate the Jesuits with Catholics in general. The Jesuits are their own special case and the disdain they have earned throughout history is anything but disinfo or limited to the SDA, as seen from the following quotes.

Before I originally posted that quote. I took the time to look up that $10 word "conflate" to be sure I was not misconstruing the meaning of what you said.


Definition of CONFLATE
1 a : to bring together : fuse



Uh, you got the right part, but you still missed the meaning. Truly, all I meant was that speaking to the special case of the Jesuits was not the same as speaking against all Catholics. As for the rest of it, go and be comfortable in your certainty, as I see no reason to continue engaging with you on this subject.

Fiat lux.



posted on Dec, 10 2013 @ 11:40 PM
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charles1952
This is not my thread, so I don't even have that authority over it. I'm a little saddened by what it has become. I'm a fan of conversation and exploring ideas, but that is no longer happening here.

I stated my position here:
www.abovetopsecret.com...
and in the post immediately following.

I appreciate my fellow poster's passion and can understand to some degree his hatred for the Church and the Jesuits. Apparently, that same passion has blinded him to what others are saying and what has been written here. It's unfortunate from my point of view, but as I said, understandable.

Since the OP's charges have been sufficiently dealt with, unless another poster comes in who is willing to talk about this, may I suggest a slight change in topic to one of these:


You are a piece of work. You get detailed points showing how your posts did anything but sufficiently deal with the op and instead of dealing with those posts, you disappear and pop up days later and proclaim things a done deal even though you cannot support your baseless claims.

I don't hate the Church, but I definitely hate the way Jesuits behave with their casuistry and the rest of their deception. That said, as you are a sterling example of the breed, at least we agree that there is no point in furthering this thread.

For the greater glory of God, indeed. Imagine the surprise your little bunch here would exhibit should you deign to explain the full Jesuitical meaning of that motto.

Cheers.



posted on Dec, 11 2013 @ 12:37 AM
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My best guess is that the Jesuits, always being academics, were swept up by the massive changes on college campuses in the 1960s and 1970s. They were so involved in the colleges and universities that they became contaminated with the same bug as the campus radicals.

The Che Guevara craze might have helped start the "Liberation Theology" movement. Certainly a few Jesuits were found fighting alongside him. It seems that a number of Jesuits just lost their way.



posted on Dec, 11 2013 @ 01:17 AM
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reply to post by charles1952
 


It's good to see your smiling face again.

Liberation theology is something sel has a hard time wrapping her mind around, especially when explained by theologians. I guess you read this already, but I got confused early on. i won't say how far I got. I would not enjoy everyone having a ROTFLMAO about my lack of understanding. Instruction on Certain Aspects of "Theology of Liberation"

Liberation Theology and Francis:

But Francis has opposed liberation theology in Argentina. According to the National Catholic Reporter, this seems to have to do more with keeping Jesuits from becoming politically active or working directly in community groups—which would be a departure from the more traditional role of the order—than it does with rejecting an interpretation of Catholicism that places an emphasis on the poor

What Are Jesuits? What About Liberation Theology? A Papal Explainer.

In a bio written about Francis:

These were the years of the military junta in Argentina, when many priests, including leading Jesuits, were gravitating towards the progressive liberation theology movement. As the Jesuit provincial, Bergoglio insisted on a more traditional reading of Ignatian spirituality, mandating that Jesuits continue to staff parishes and act as chaplains rather than moving into "base communities" and political activism.

ncronline.org...

So I think it is not the direction he will lead the Church.

I am keen to understand the direction he is steering this ship so I started to delve into his first encyclical which is very easy to understand. I will post a link to it if you are interested, but my computer is telling me it is tired and I can't get to it right now.

Here is a quote from it that I would like to share as food for thought.

" The great danger in today’s world, pervaded as it is by consumerism, is the desolation and anguish born of a complacent yet covetous heart, the feverish pursuit of frivolous pleasures, and a blunted conscience. Whenever our interior life becomes caught up in its own interests and concerns, there is no longer room for others, no place for the poor. God’s voice is no longer heard, the quiet joy of his love is no longer felt, and the desire to do good fades. This is a very real danger for believers too. Many fall prey to it, and end up resentful, angry and listless. That is no way to live a dignified and fulfilled life; it is not God’s will for us, nor is it the life in the Spirit which has its source in the heart of the risen Christ."



posted on Dec, 11 2013 @ 02:06 AM
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reply to post by BlueMoonJoe
 


Hi Pot,

So lovely of you to call one kind and gentle soul a piece of work for trying to take this thread to a higher level.

I don't think you enjoyed the idea of losing your podium.

I offer you 2 thoughts I had a while back.

1) A heart that carries malice is not a suitable dwelling place for the God who loves all, but the demons will abide happily within it.

2) You don't know really know the meaning of love or the worth of it until you love your enemies.

What say you about these two ideas?

Signed, Kettle whose not afraid of spiritual warfare and knows the difference between that and intelligent discussion.

Pesky little critter, aren't I?

Hope this doesn't make it any worse for you, but I am praying that you are lifted into the midst of the Trinity where you will be filled with the awareness of the God who loves you.



posted on Dec, 11 2013 @ 03:27 AM
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Pot, I am ready when you are to dissect the first encyclical of Pope Francis.

By logic, your sources claim the Pope is the Antichrist and they speak quite negatively of the work of the Jesuits. So from my eyes this is the reason all your posts are so important to you,. You see Pope Francis as the AntiChrist as he is a Jesuit pope. Or perhaps you just want to convince us he is the AntiChrist.

EVANGEL II GAUDIUM

This is your golden opportunity to review the heart of Francis teachings.:what he asks of Christians, his views and instructions on a variety of subjects. You want to be credible then show us how he is the Antichrist.

If you wish to pick apart this man who you perceive is a threat to the world, please pick any topic and we can all discuss it.

Wouldn't t you agree, the best way to discredit your enemy is not by what others say, but what he himself says?

Of course this is here for all to study, dissect and comment. So everybody with an ax to grind or not, please join in if you so desire,





edit on 12/11/2013 by sad_eyed_lady because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 11 2013 @ 05:13 AM
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Moderator note:

Please refrain from any name-calling or personal attacks

(please do not reply to this post)



posted on Dec, 11 2013 @ 09:10 AM
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reply to post by BlueMoonJoe
 



Titling a book after a Lutheran theme is indicative of him being a Presbyterian minister? Impressive bit of divination there.

The title of the book has nothing to do with his profession, which was being a Presbyterian minister.


James Aitken Wylie (1808-1890) was a Scottish historian of religion and Presbyterian minister. He was a prolific writer and is most famous for writing The History of Protestantism. (Source)

The title of the book demonstrates that he was not merely a Protestant historian, but that he was an anti-Catholic.


Regardless, I am not sure how he is seen as biased, yet your Jesuit university professor somehow isn't. Please explain how that works.

Here's how it works. Go read Hitchcock's book that I noted, and then we can talk about it. We can talk about the manner in which he portrays evils done by the Catholic Church, we can talk about how he treats the church's opponents, including Luther. But in the vacuum of you dismissing a highly acclaimed, comprehensive history of the church, simply because it was written by someone employed at St. Louis University, there is nothing to talk about.

I dismiss Wylie's work because I've read it and it's garbage, points of utter nonsense sourced from polemics and repeated to further an anti-Catholic agenda. Is the whole work worthless? Of course not, but when someone has a clear agenda, the text that serves that agenda needs to be dismissed in favour of less biased sources.


He is quoting a Catholic addressing a Catholic Parliament regarding the Jesuit doctrine of murder based upon the long-standing body of work by eminent Jesuits.

What he is quoting is yet another anti-Jesuit polemic.


For 60 years he (Louis-René de Caradeuc de La Chalotais) was procureur general at the parliament of Brittany. He was an ardent opponent of the Jesuits, and drew up in 1761 for the parlement a memoir on the constitutions of the Order, which did much to secure its suppression in France. (Source)

A non-credible source does not gain credibility by citing other non-credible sources.



posted on Dec, 11 2013 @ 10:31 AM
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reply to post by adjensen
 


TUPPER SAUSSY

RULERS OF EVIL

www.granddesignexposed.com...



posted on Dec, 11 2013 @ 11:23 AM
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reply to post by sad_eyed_lady
 


Dear sad_eyed_lady,

I'm sorry I was away, but I had to attend a conference over the weekend which kept us going from 7 a.m. until 9 p.m. each evening. That's something I don't do very well. Upon my return I slept for 20 hours.

I looked at the recent posts in this thread, prayed about it, and decided on the course I took. I've been amply rewarded. sad_eyed_lady, your post is wonderful. It is thoughtful, reasonable, and invites exploration and discussion. It leaves plenty of room to criticize the Jesuits, yet has a hopeful and inspiring tone to it. This is where a Jesuit thread (pro- or anti-) should have started.

No one has any right to laugh at your efforts in understanding a Papal Instruction. Remember that Jesuits have a Ph.D in addition to whatever other credentials they might have. This is not easy reading. Would you mind if I offered how I see it? (I see you saying "Go ahead," so I will.)

People can be trapped, or enslaved, in a couple of different ways. It can be a spiritual slavery such as is seen in those who are full of hate, greed, pride, etc. This slavery prevents us from being fully human and, if not corrected, robs us of a chance for eternal life.

There is also a worldly slavery. We see it everywhere. Poverty, disease, tyranny, sex trafficking, drugs, and violence, to name a few. This slavery shortens lives, robs people of human dignity, and turns them into creatures with no other thought than survival.

Both conditions are terrible, and both need to be addressed. Spiritual slavery is ultimately more important for those who believe in Eternal Life, but worldly slavery is obvious, in your face, gut wrenching. Further, unless a person can be raised up to the point where he can think of something besides his immediate survival, its difficult to do anything about their spiritual slavery.

The Jesuits, in the eyes of the Church, got carried away on the worldly slavery issue. They did things which provided no progress towards freeing people from their spiritual chains, indeed by taking fighting roles, they often made that spiritual slavery worse.

I think that the Instructions you linked to were one of several efforts to get the Jesuits and others to stop and rethink what they were doing, especially in South America, and "get with the program," so to speak.

As you point out, Francis was ahead of the curve in South America in warning about the dangers of Liberation Theology. But, also as you point out, he is fully aware of the traps to the soul which await those consumed by consumerism and greed. I don't think he's gone wrong yet, although he is looking at things from a different angle, he is still looking at the same Truth.

Great link and quote. Informative and very useful post. Thanks.

With respect,
Charles1952



posted on Dec, 11 2013 @ 03:57 PM
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reply to post by charles1952
 


Thank you for helping to clarify Liberation Theology.. Hopefully, it is on it's way out.

The link I posted where I mentioned my difficulty understanding theologians was written in the 1980's so this Pope wasn't the source. I have read many books written by men with S.J. after their names and found them to be quite challenging, yet understandable, but when it comes to reading encyclicals they are not what I call easy reading.

Francis' encyclical is quite comprehensible. JP2 had a brilliant mind said many a person, I wouldn't know. Someone gave me a book he wrote "Crossing the Threshold of Hope" and as my friend raved about it, I had to admit it was too complex for me grasp. If you can't grasp it you can't see the brilliance.

I read an awesome book years ago by Anthony de Mello, Jesuit and psychotherapist called "Awareness" It is a practical book that challenges your mindset and helped me greatly in my personal growth. Some claim it is not an easy read always saying it was worth the effort. I would highly recommend it to everyone. If one wonders what Ignatian Spirituality is about I would say this is an enjoyable way to painlessly understand it as it is not cramming theology down your throat, but uses it to help you in your personal development. I think this is probably the best contribution I can make on this thread, to endorse it. It is on my short list of books that have personally helped me to gain insight into understanding and bettering myself.
edit on 12/11/2013 by sad_eyed_lady because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 11 2013 @ 04:35 PM
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reply to post by sad_eyed_lady
 

Dear sad_eyed_lady,

I appreciate the reference to what you think of as a useful book. I'll trot down to our library and see if they can get a copy.

One of the things that make God, the Church and the Popes so interesting is the vast scope and complexity of life and spirituality.

During some periods, the Church has to fight for its existence. In others it has to resist being lured into a desire to be a rich, worldly institution. The Pope is always a man of prayer, but sometimes they are more mystical, and in others more active. Some Popes are brilliant scholars and academics, some are Popes of the people. There have been a few who have been brilliant statesmen who have helped changed the world's balance of power.

Francis seems to have a special emphasis on, and love for, the poor. It's said that the Church gets the Pope that they need, when it needs him.

With respect,
Charles1952



posted on Dec, 11 2013 @ 04:44 PM
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reply to post by charles1952
 





Why have the Jesuit numbers fallen from 30,000 to 17,000 in the last 60 years?


From what I have read, this is the case for all priestly vocations, not just Jesuits. The trend appears to be in the process of reversing its direction.

After years of decline, Catholics see rise in number of future priests


This year’s tally of 3,694 graduate theology students represents a 16 percent increase since 1995 and a 10 percent jump since 2005, according to Georgetown University’s Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate (CARA).


Date of article is Sept. 24, 2013
edit on 12/11/2013 by sad_eyed_lady because: (no reason given)



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