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reply to post by BlueMoonJoe
This is a direct theme running back to Luther himself. What is your objection?
That it is indicative of him being a Presbyterian Minister with an axe to grind, writing inflammatory books in a period of anti-Catholicism in the US and UK. I'm sure even you would say that he is not an unbiased source.
"All imbued with the doctrine of murder"? What is the source of that?
The lawfulness of killing excommunicated, that is Protestant, kings, the Jesuit writers have been at great pains to maintain, and by a great variety of arguments to defend and enforce. The proof is as abundant as it is painful. M. de la Chalotais reports to the Parliament of Bretagne, as the result of his examination of the laws and doctrines of the Jesuits, that on this point there is a complete and startling unanimity in their teaching. By the same logical track do the whole host of Jesuit writers arrive at the same terrible conclusion, the slaughter, namely, of the sovereign on whom the Pope has pronounced sentence of deposition. If he shall take meekly his extrusion from Power, and seek neither to resist nor revenge his being hurled from his throne, his life may be spared; but should “he persist in disobedience,” says M. de la Chalotais, himself a Papist, and addressing a Popish Parliament, “he may be treated as a tyrant, in which case anybody may kill him. Such is the course of reasoning established by all authors of the society, who have written ex professo on these subjects–Bellarmine, Suarez, Molina, Mariana, Santarel–all the Ultramontanes without exception, since the establishment of the society.”
"Their numbers have prodigiously increased since"? What does prodigiously mean, what's his source for that claim, and what does it matter, anyway, since there is no citation behind "All imbued with the doctrine of murder".
You're citing a 150 year old piece of hate text that doesn't have credible sources behind it and was written by a biased source, but because someone bothered to publish it, you think that makes it credible? What's next, The Awful Disclosures of Maria Monk? Something by Alberto Rivera? Maybe a quote from The Da Vinci Code?
On what grounds, the Jesuits demand, can the killing of one who is no longer a king be called regicide? Suarez tells us that when a king is deposed he is no longer to be regarded as a king, but as a tyrant: “he therefore loses his authority, and from that moment may be lawfully killed.” Nor is the opinion of the Jesuit Mariana less decided. Speaking of a prince, he says: “If he should overthrow the religion of the country, and introduce a public enemy within the State, I shall never consider that man to have done wrong, who, favorting the public wishes, would attempt to kill him… It is useful that princes should be made to know, that if they oppress the State and become intolerable by their vices and their pollution, they hold their lives upon this tenure, that to put them to death is not only laudable, but a glorious action… It is a glorious thing to exterminate this pestilent and mischievous race from the community of men.”
Going to take a minute to follow up on my disinfo claim above, did a quick Google search on Lincoln and the Jesuits, most of it tied back to Rense, checked a couple of the other of the guys sources, fundie christian websites, at least one was SDA.
I pretty much let people spout what they will on here, but check the dates, and how well prepared he was. Nothing more than a google search, and some org says, "We gotta shut that down", unfortunately in this case they made it very obvious.
Sad Eyed Lady, Charles1952, and several others have made this a very interesting conversation. That being said, the shills need to be shut down.
reply to post by BlueMoonJoe
Could you find that for me? This is all I read about your thoughts on this matter: It is wrong to conflate the Jesuits with Catholics in general. The Jesuits are their own special case and the disdain they have earned throughout history is anything but disinfo or limited to the SDA, as seen from the following quotes.
Before I originally posted that quote. I took the time to look up that $10 word "conflate" to be sure I was not misconstruing the meaning of what you said.
Definition of CONFLATE
1 a : to bring together : fuse
This is not my thread, so I don't even have that authority over it. I'm a little saddened by what it has become. I'm a fan of conversation and exploring ideas, but that is no longer happening here.
I stated my position here:
and in the post immediately following.
I appreciate my fellow poster's passion and can understand to some degree his hatred for the Church and the Jesuits. Apparently, that same passion has blinded him to what others are saying and what has been written here. It's unfortunate from my point of view, but as I said, understandable.
Since the OP's charges have been sufficiently dealt with, unless another poster comes in who is willing to talk about this, may I suggest a slight change in topic to one of these:
But Francis has opposed liberation theology in Argentina. According to the National Catholic Reporter, this seems to have to do more with keeping Jesuits from becoming politically active or working directly in community groups—which would be a departure from the more traditional role of the order—than it does with rejecting an interpretation of Catholicism that places an emphasis on the poor
These were the years of the military junta in Argentina, when many priests, including leading Jesuits, were gravitating towards the progressive liberation theology movement. As the Jesuit provincial, Bergoglio insisted on a more traditional reading of Ignatian spirituality, mandating that Jesuits continue to staff parishes and act as chaplains rather than moving into "base communities" and political activism.
" The great danger in today’s world, pervaded as it is by consumerism, is the desolation and anguish born of a complacent yet covetous heart, the feverish pursuit of frivolous pleasures, and a blunted conscience. Whenever our interior life becomes caught up in its own interests and concerns, there is no longer room for others, no place for the poor. God’s voice is no longer heard, the quiet joy of his love is no longer felt, and the desire to do good fades. This is a very real danger for believers too. Many fall prey to it, and end up resentful, angry and listless. That is no way to live a dignified and fulfilled life; it is not God’s will for us, nor is it the life in the Spirit which has its source in the heart of the risen Christ."
Titling a book after a Lutheran theme is indicative of him being a Presbyterian minister? Impressive bit of divination there.
James Aitken Wylie (1808-1890) was a Scottish historian of religion and Presbyterian minister. He was a prolific writer and is most famous for writing The History of Protestantism. (Source)
Regardless, I am not sure how he is seen as biased, yet your Jesuit university professor somehow isn't. Please explain how that works.
He is quoting a Catholic addressing a Catholic Parliament regarding the Jesuit doctrine of murder based upon the long-standing body of work by eminent Jesuits.
For 60 years he (Louis-René de Caradeuc de La Chalotais) was procureur general at the parliament of Brittany. He was an ardent opponent of the Jesuits, and drew up in 1761 for the parlement a memoir on the constitutions of the Order, which did much to secure its suppression in France. (Source)
Why have the Jesuit numbers fallen from 30,000 to 17,000 in the last 60 years?
This year’s tally of 3,694 graduate theology students represents a 16 percent increase since 1995 and a 10 percent jump since 2005, according to Georgetown University’s Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate (CARA).