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Not to mention that they were found to be wrong in some of their zeal.
You have heard of the Galileo Affair?
Just an instance in which the Catholic science "lovers' were wrong.
reply to post by Elijah23
Exodus 20:4-5 "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them..." They pray to Mary. Nowhere in the Bible does it tell us to pray to Mary, or any other person, but it tells us only to pray to God the Father.
Matthew 6:6 "But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly." They pray to Mary because they believe that she intercedes for us. This is not supported by any Scripture, but Scripture states that Jesus intercedes for us.
Hebrews 7:25 "Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them."
Romans 8:34 "Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us." With out a doubt Mary was a holy woman. That is all.. She was not with out sin like the Catholics believe. Catholics believe that Mary never sinned. Again, this is not supported by any Scripture.
Romans 3:23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God..." There is only one person that never sinned, and that person is Jesus.
Hebrews 4:15 "For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are-yet was without sin."
1 John 3:5 "And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin." 1 Peter 2:22 "'He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth.'"
They believe that Mary was always a virgin, and had no children other than Jesus.
Matthew 13:55-56 "Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?"
Mark 3:31 "There came then his brethren and his mother, and, standing without, sent unto him, calling him."
Matthew 12:46 "While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him." Catholics argue that when the Bible refers to brothers of Jesus, that these are spiritual brothers and not blood relatives.
There is much more I'd argue, but I think my point is made. Catholics are hypocrites. BUT I will apologize that I did throw Caths into a barrel with the rest. I am sorry that my statement offended you.
Start with Christianity, for example. One reason I suggest that is that it's managed to survive and flourish unlike, say, Mithraism.
Science has told us that what we have in the Bible today, is almost certainly what was originally written in over 99% of the verses and words. So, were the various writers lying, telling the truth, or fooled? I don't know of another option.
I can't figure out what they'd get out of it by lying. They cut themselves off from the Romans and the Jews by taking those beliefs. They themselves got killed for their beliefs. If I remember correctly, only John died a natural death.
I'm open for discussion, of course, but it seems as though they really believed what they saw. Were they fooled, over and over? If so, how? Alien technology, magic tricks, what?
You won't ever have absolute proof, forget that right now. You will only have evidence pointing one way or the other. You have to decide with what you're able to discover.
I don't have any trouble disbelieving in Poseidon. There just isn't enough evidence or logic to maintain that position. I could be wrong, of course, but I'm sure enough that I'm not going to start worshiping him.
You know that there is something, or Someone, out there. Please keep checking evidence and reason.
These things were recorded with thirty years of Christ's death. There wasn't any time for oral traditions, besides, they said they were witnesses to it.
I am not sure any of them were writing what they saw, or just recording oral traditions. Especially in the old testament, many of the stories are shared by other believers.
By assembling pieces, and references from other writers of the period, the original text, almost completely, exists. There will be different ways to translate the original work, but nobody translates "white" as "black."
I am not looking for absolute proof, just a belief that hasn't been translated a 100 times over.
There are many who do. I'm willing to take the majority opinion of what a particular word might be translated as.
I do not have the skill to read the original language,
The split in the churches is terrible and a shame. With the exception of Martin Luther, who wanted to toss out parts of the Bible, it's not so much a question of translation as where to put the emphasis and whether to give any weight to the writings of the earliest Christians and the people who studied it for centuries.
but have seen enough contradictions to question many if not all of them. Especially here in the US, there is a church on every corner, and they all want to translate it to enrich their beliefs.
I am not looking for absolute proof, just a belief that hasn't been translated a 100 times over. I do not have the skill to read the original language, but have seen enough contradictions to question many if not all of them. Especially here in the US, there is a church on every corner, and they all want to translate it to enrich their beliefs. There are many religions older than Christianity, and if we base it on longevity, who is to say they are not right?
Without looking for the info, what I recall, only one of the gospels was written within 100 years of Christ's death, and then with the council of Nicea, much was left out, especially the coptic gospels.
I am not sure any of them were writing what they saw, or just recording oral traditions.
"A house divided against itself will not stand." - Jesus
ATS is becoming a sick joke as well with posts like these popping up here and there.
How many errors does a single article have to have before doubts begin to penetrate? Even the few statements that are true are either to the praise of the Jesuits, or are irrelevant.
I say all this, of course, in the kindliest possible manner.
Yep, because of the world political situation, the Pope suppressed, not abolished, the Jesuits for 41 years. There is a difference.
after a mature deliberation, we do, out of our certain knowledge, and the fulness of our apostolical power, SUPPRESS AND ABOLISH THE SAID COMPANY: we deprive it of all activity whatever, of its houses, schools, colleges, hospitals, lands, and, in short, every other place whatsoever, in whatever kingdom or province they may be situated; we abrogate and annul its statutes, rules, customs, decrees, and constitutions, even though confirmed by oath, and approved by the Holy See or otherwise; in like manner we annul all and every its privileges, indults, general or particular, the tenor whereof is, and is taken to be, as fully and as amply expressed in the present Brief as if the same were inserted word for word, in whatever clauses, form, or decree, or under whatever sanction their privileges may have been conceived.
Is there anything significant about "Fact #1" that is true? Give me a source.
The bull justifies itself by a long and formidable list of charges against the Jesuits. Had this accusation proceeded from a Protestant pen it might have been regarded as not free from exaggeration, but coming from the Papal chair it must be accepted as the sober truth. The bull of Clement charged them with raising various insurrections and rebellions, with plotting against bishops, undermining the regnlar monastic orders, and invading pious foundations and corporations of every sort, not only in Europe, but in Asia and America, to the danger of souls and the astonishment of all nations. It charged them with engaging in trade, and that, instead of seeking to convert the heathen, they had shown themselves intent only on gathering gold and silver and precious jewels. They had interpolated pagan rites and manners with Christian beliefs and worship: they had set aside the ordinances of the Church, and substituted opinions which the apostolic chair had pronounced fundamentally erroneous and evidently subversive of good morals. Tumults, disturbances, violences, had followed them in all countries. In fine, they had broken the peace of the Church, and so incurably that the Pontificates of his predecessors, Urban VIII, Clements IX, X, XI, and XII, Alexanders VII and VIII, Innocents X, XI, XII, and XIII, and Benedict XIV, had been passed in abortive attempts to re-establish the harmony and concord which they had destroyed.
reply to post by sad_eyed_lady
ATS is becoming a sick joke as well with posts like these popping up here and there.
Truly a sad response.
ATS has been like this. If you go back and read some of the threads from 2003 you will see that they are no different.
What is your motive?
Truth is my motive and a desire to see ATS to be a place where ignorance is denied. Claims made against the Jesuits have been discussed so often on ATS (search Jesuits if you doubt it). I am tired of hatred being spread on ATS based on lies.