Who was correct, Jews or Christians? Was Eden our elevation or our fall?

DISRAELI
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

Even in the quoted article, the serpent is described as introducing a "poison" into human life.
Judaism agrees that the event was not a good thing.
The real difference between Judaism and Christianity is whether the antidote to the "poison" is to be found through obedience to the Law or through faith in Christ.
If you think that Christianity got it wrong, you will, of course, be wanting to submit yourself to the Jewish Law instead.

In my own thread on the fall (q.v.) I come up with a speculative alternative which might be called "indirect rise";

...or should the development of our conscious will be seen as a stage in our progress towards a future state in which our conscious decision-making has been re-aligned with God’s will? (Another version of the FELIX CULPA idea).

From "The Tree of what knowledge?"

edit on 1-12-2013 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)

A true slave mentality that thinks man belongs on his knees instead of standing tall. You shame yourself.

Why do you think poison and the snake as evil when medicine use it as their emblem and God himself states that it is the wisest of all animals?

Why do you think that the various snake cults and religions were so prominent in the times before Christianity and Constantine's killing ended them?

You sound like a literalist and I hope I have not insulted you by asking you to think.

Regards
DL

snoopy11
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

Neither,

"We did not rise,
We did not fall.
There was no Garden,
there at all.

God by reason of his own,
dictates the world
from his throne.

There was no serpent
sly and wise.
There was no fall,
there was no rise."

I agree for reality. Not for the esoteric view which is the right view for religions.
But your straight denial, even if true, does not fight the evils of religion and Christianity that has used Eden as a club to deny women equality all of these years.

For evil to grow, etc.

Regards
DL

Greatest I am
Why do you think poison and the snake as evil when medicine use it as their emblem and God himself states that it is the wisest of all animals?

All I did was point out that you are asking us to choose between Judaism and Christianity on a question where they actually agree with each other.
The idea that the serpent introduced a poison, and that an antidote for the poison was needed, was something I picked out of the article which you linked.

andy06shake
"Who was correct, Jews or Christians? Was Eden our elevation or our fall?"

Well we managed to get ourselves tossed out the party just because we got caught fraternizing with a reptile so I have to go with fallen rather than elevation.

LoL

edit on 1-12-2013 by andy06shake because: (no reason given)

Why did God put the reptile there and give it the power than Eve could not resist?

IOW, why did God set Eve up to fall?

Regards
DL

DISRAELI

Greatest I am
Why do you think poison and the snake as evil when medicine use it as their emblem and God himself states that it is the wisest of all animals?

All I did was point out that you are asking us to choose between Judaism and Christianity on a question where they actually agree with each other.
The idea that the serpent introduced a poison, and that an antidote for the poison was needed, was something I picked out of the article which you linked.

Oh well. I tried to get you to think and failed.

You should know that poison and it's toxicity are the best medicines and remedies for most unhealthy conditions.

It kills what ails us.

Regards
DL

reply to post by Greatest I am


I have not read anyone's post in this thread, only the OP.

There is something that should be explored here, in all seriousness. God, is perfect. I am sure no one can disagree on this point. Also, God knows all things beginning to end. Therefore, it is quite safe to assume that God knew exactly what was going to happen...

The question will be, was what Adam and Eve did then a sin? Or was it simply a matter of being faced with two choices, and Adam and Eve chose the lesser one?

Before Adam and Eve was a tree they were told not to eat of the fruit. Any other tree they could eat from, but not this one.

Was it a command? Or was it a posited as a you do not want to do this? Christians will say command the same as the 10 commandments, Others will say it was a posited you don't want to do this type of thing, rather than an absolute...

Why do I say this? Because, mankind was made for earth, from the moment of our creation we were made from the earth and to be on the earth... not in Eden, and God knew we would not be in Eden when he made us...

So, was it that Adam and Eve chose the lesser of two choices? Or did They sin terribly and then cast into earth (which we just happened to have been created from and made for)

I rather do not believe in original sin, because of this... We were made for this earth and from this earth and God knows all of what is past present and future...IN other words, He knew what Adam and Eve would do, and never created us for the garden, but for life on earth first.

This life teaches, without hardships we do not appreciate. And God knows what we do not.

reply to post by Greatest I am


what do we realize when we see what we are, and wish to cover our bodies... you are no longer an animal. The dog doesn't think anything of his butt, no animal does.

With this differentiation, a non-animalistic sense about us, we changed from the animal into half animal half something else correct, something higher came with this understanding.

There is a story in the Quran about the "Trust". God offered to all a trust, everyone refused, every rock every animal every species created refused this trust... only one accepted the trust... it was man.

"Surely We offered the trust to the heavens and the earth and the mountains and they refused to bear it and feared from it, and man bore it. Surely he is ever unjust ignorant" (33:72).

The Arabic word zaloomun translated as 'unjust', also means ready to bear loss. And this is very true, mankind is almost always willing to bear loss, for that which is greater.

Therefore, while Eden may have been a loss, it was only a loss in that we had complete innocence as an animal does, and now we do not. I am happy to bear that loss, to have something greater, and that greater thing is to no longer be an animal, but fully human, which comes with knowledge of our creator in a very real sense.

Only now, are we able to be higher than the angels. Which is exactly what the satan and his followers did not want... And God knows what we do not.

I don't want to know God as the dog knows his master, or the cow in the field knows his owner, but rather, I want to know God as the angels do. So is that wrong? Is this an evil desire in me, to desire to know my creator on a higher level? In my honest opinion it can only be evil in the eyes of the one who is the enemy of God Himself.

And God knows best.

Greatest I am

snoopy11
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

Neither,

"We did not rise,
We did not fall.
There was no Garden,
there at all.

God by reason of his own,
dictates the world
from his throne.

There was no serpent
sly and wise.
There was no fall,
there was no rise."

I agree for reality. Not for the esoteric view which is the right view for religions.
But your straight denial, even if true, does not fight the evils of religion and Christianity that has used Eden as a club to deny women equality all of these years.

For evil to grow, etc.

Regards
DL

It is an esoteric view, its an hermetic view.... there is no original sin... God made this Universe which is a physical Universe where good and evil things occur because he could make it no other way for whatever purpose he had to make a physical universe for in the first place was.

Evil does not grow, it happens by random events or we choose it to happen, it does not grow.

I do no subscribe to any religon they are divisive I set myself free from them to Love God.

God is by necessity 'Good' but allows evil to happen because there can be no other way in such a construct as a 'physical universe'.

Some say that better he had not created the Universe physical in the first place but kept it as a perfect idea inside the mind of God but this overlooks the possibility that God had to make the physical Universe, that God had no choice.

mOjOm

So they eat the fruit and what happens?? Well, they didn't die and in fact did become wise and God himself even said it himself in the quote further above when he said “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil;. Basically God lied about the Tree to Adam and Eve, the Serpent actually told them the truth and God punishes everybody.

Exactly. Not only that but the Yahweh guy in the garden had to physically look for them. Does that sound omnipotent to you? To me, that clearly says that the creators of the world in the beginning of Genesis (I know, redundant) is not the same guy who punished Adam and Eve's offspring.

So when I say that the guy who created Adam and Eve lied to them and is a sadistic figure of myth, I do no feel I'm truly insulting the Abrahamic creators of the universe or even their Jesus; I just have a beef with that godling in the Garden of Eden.

reply to post by mOjOm


No.

Adam & Eve had The Holy Spirit with them. They communed with God Himself directly. Everything was absolutely Heaven. No death, no war, no sickness and the list goes on & on. It would have been perfection as we cannot imagine, Agape.

Satan tricked them. After they ate from the tree, all of us were cursed. They chose knowledge of flesh over knowledge of the spirit (Spirit).

Since then this world became "death" itself, (Spiritual Death) as God said. But, our way out is Christ. Still, we follow the knowledge of flesh and are too foolish to seek in our spirit. We stress about the death, dying, saying bye to this world? Spiritual death is what should make us tremble. It is something we cannot understand. It is horrible. No explanation can be given how awful it is. That is the "death" we must fear.

How you say our Father is the liar I cannot fathom, especially after they had a truly personal relationship with God Himself. Ate the apple, bye bye Holy Spirit & welcome death & destruction. They were warned, yet disobeyed & caused us nothing but a tough time.

The fact that Satan & co is still blinding us is quite obvious.

One Man could only ever walk a sinless path, & His blood is that of our Father's. Take that blood, while we can. Start to seek in spirit, receive The Holy Spirit, deny the flesh, rid the curse. To crucify the flesh is extremely extremely difficult, but that fight is so worth it.

I wish I could speak to God and be in His presence 24/7 the way they did! Now, it is a spiritual battle 'cos of their disobedience. Many days I am angry at them, but, could I have done any better? In a way, even though I battle, I know it is all and it was always His plan.

And don't think God while in flesh had it easy. He was tempted just like us. But when He returned to Spiritual form, it was DONE! That tells us that to live in spirit is true knowledge. Living in flesh is tough. Yet, we still choose not see & hear (in the spirit).

KaelemJames
reply to post by mOjOm

 

No.

Adam & Eve had The Holy Spirit with them. They communed with God Himself directly. Everything was absolutely Heaven. No death, no war, no sickness and the list goes on & on. It would have been perfection as we cannot imagine, Agape.

They did not ask to be stripped of any of that nor did they tell the Holy Spirit to leave. They did not commune with the Genesis deities directly; they spoke only with the Yahweh mini-god face to face.

KaelemJames
Satan tricked them. After they ate from the tree, all of us were cursed. They chose knowledge of flesh over knowledge of the spirit (Spirit).

How did the serpent trick them? He said they would gain knowledge and not die as the little god in the garden said. They were ignorant and mortal to begin with then they became knowledgeable and still mortal... just like that little snake fella said.

KaelemJames
Since then this world became "death" itself, (Spiritual Death) as God said. But, our way out is Christ. Still, we follow the knowledge of flesh and are too foolish to seek in our spirit. We stress about the death, dying, saying bye to this world? Spiritual death is what should make us tremble. It is something we cannot understand. It is horrible. No explanation can be given how awful it is. That is the "death" we must fear.

Agreed. I don't believe in spiritual "death" but spiritual dormancy is something to be avoided. But do you really think that "spiritual death" can be accomplished by something so silly as eating a fruit? Any and all negative reprisals that were leveled against Adam and Eve were perpetrated by Yahweh and not a natural cause-and-effect from gaining knowledge. Gods, no wonder fundamentalists are afraid of their children learning science.

KaelemJames
How you say our Father is the liar I cannot fathom, especially after they had a truly personal relationship with God Himself. Ate the apple, bye bye Holy Spirit & welcome death & destruction. They were warned, yet disobeyed & caused us nothing but a tough time.

Again... the god in the garden punished them out of his own will. It was him, not Adam and Eve who is to be blamed for the "death and destruction". They were warned with lies. Lies that the serpent made clear and then they were punished for calling Yahweh out on it.

KaelemJames
The fact that Satan & co is still blinding us is quite obvious.

Ironic. He is "blinding" by enlightening Adam and Eve? Wouldn't that be Yahweh who attempted to keep them blind but failed and so then he punished them for opening their eyes?

KaelemJames
One Man could only ever walk a sinless path, & His blood is that of our Father's. Take that blood, while we can. Start to seek in spirit, receive The Holy Spirit, deny the flesh, rid the curse. To crucify the flesh is extremely extremely difficult, but that fight is so worth it.

I believe your Jesus has far less in common with Yahweh of Eden than you think.

KaelemJames
I wish I could speak to God and be in His presence 24/7 the way they did! Now it is a spiritual battle, thanks their disobedience.

So he can punish you for for all eternity when you take the bait in the trap he laid before you?

KaelemJames
And don't think God while in flesh had it easy. He was tempted just like us. But when He returned to Spiritual form, it was DONE! That tells us that to live in spirit is true knowledge. Living in flesh is tough. Yet, we still choose not see & hear.

edit on 09/02/2012 by KaelemJames because: Spelling added

I have no beefs with you Jesus. I just wish you guys would stick with the one god or just embrace polytheism because the gods and goddesses in the beginning of Genesis, Yahweh, and Jesus were obviously not cut from the same cloth.

reply to post by Cuervo


Hi,

The couple is expelled from the garden. God begins a sentence in v. 22 and breaks off without finishing it - for the man to live forever (in a sinful condition) is an unbearable thought, and God must waste no time in preventing it ("therefore The Lord sent him out of the garden").

The tree of life, then, probably served in some way to confirm a person in his or her moral condition. According to Genesis 2:15, the man was put in the garden to work it and keep guard of it. Outside the garden man will have to work the ground, and the task of guarding the garden is given to the Cherubim.

By allowing themselves to be manipulated by the serpent, the couple failed to fulfill their priestly duty of guarding the garden. Consequently, their priestly duty is removed from them as they are put out of the sanctuary.

Thus man loses the "life" power essential to ruling in God's Kingdom.

Since everything else God planted in the garden was good, the natural choice of something to choose from would be knowledge of evil. God's plan for Adam and Eve was to enjoy each other and their fellowship with Him without the influence of evil.

God did not want Adam and Eve to experience evil or even know about it. However, Satan had already rebelled against God and then tempted Eve to join him in rebellion against God. Satan used the oldest ploy in his playbook of deceit - God is a cosmic killjoy who is trying to keep something good from you.

Satan first asked Eve about the tree from which they were told not to eat. Eve told Satan they were not to eat of the forbidden fruit or they would die. Satan's reply indicated that God was a liar and that He just wanted to keep something good (the fruit) from them, saying, "God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil. So, Adam and Eve gained knowledge of the difference between good and evil through direct experience, instead of through instruction by God.

The text suggests that Adam and Eve had enjoyed daily walks with God through the garden prior to their fall (Genesis 3:8). The knowledge of evil brought fear and shame to Adam and Eve (Genesis 3:10). So, the knowledge of good and evil was not a good thing, since it ruined their innocent relationship with God and each other.

reply to post by KaelemJames


Once again, though, you are making connections that are extra-biblical. We have solid statements in the bible and you and I are reading the same words. I interpret them one way and you interpret them the other. The difference is that I interpret them without bias and read it as a person would understand a novel where Yahweh is clearly the bad guy and the serpent is clearly the liberator.

You read it and use other doctrine and scripture to clarify and modify the very straight forward story. You do so because it fits the common image of the serpent being Satan and Yahweh being the good guy.

If I interpret the OT and the NT without the aid of the church (something every Christian should try to do), Jesus has far more in common with Satan than Yahweh. He is seen as a liberator, light bearer, and one who brings forth the true colors of another.

Keep in mind, I'm not a Satanist nor a Christian. In fact, I side with Christians on many issues and I'm not too fond of the generic "Satanic" philosophies (capitalism, Ayn Rand, etc) but I still can't get myself to see the bible the way you do. You need a lot of artistic license to paint the god of Eden as a good guy where I'd rather just read it as intended. Deities are meant to be complex so the truth of Yahweh lying in the garden isn't exactly far-fetched.

reply to post by Cuervo


It's not the way I read it, but how 100's of scholars read it, and explained it. I used two different study bibles to explain what I wrote.

But, yes, I see things the way they do. You are correct

I am a believer, you're not. Our views will definitely differ.

But as a believer I study the scripture so I can make sense of things that is so easily mistaken, or interpreted by others incorrectly. Like this. People interpret it with knowledge of the flesh. They will most definitely believe worldly knowledge, as it was exactly done by Adam and Eve. As I said - we choose not to see and hear. We follow our flesh and push aside the spirit.

The Word should be studied, and be taken seriously. And by this I mean all the books of the Scripture. Even 1984 gets taken more seriously. By just reading it, without studying and meditating on it, it will not be of any help.

I can help explain things I study, but it will be explained away. No matter what I say, it won't count for the unbeliever. No one can change anyone, but oneself.

Warm regards

reply to post by Greatest I am


I was always under the impression that Jews dont consider our expulsion from paradise in the same way that Christians do.

I have read that they didnt see the expulsion as that of us from eden, but rather as God being expulsed from eden.

Earth WITH God was Eden. Earth without God was not.

We chose a division from God and that is why we were separated from him. Not because he judged us in the christian sense of sin and atonement. We stained our selves (wished to learn evil) and as a result we could no longer be with the unblemished. We did it. We judged ourselves (shame of our nudity). It was our choice to be without God (hid from him). It was Not his choice, (he called for us but we did not answer).

Sin is a weight. It is a filth that keeps you from the rising. It keeps you from the clean.

That is how I have accepted it and what I read anyways.

reply to post by KaelemJames


We appreciate and truly understand/know the good through adversity.

My husband and I have both been in horrible relationships before we met and married. Sometimes I wish I could have met him when I was young and always just been with him... but I know that before going through hell, I never could have appreciated him the way I do and can now...

Evil made me appreciate and understand/know my husband, who is good.

How much greater a gift is it to truly know God?

We are created for adversity, and without it, we could never know and appreciate God on the level we can now. This might be an adversity, but it was one we were made for, and because of it you can have a relationship with God unlike anything dreamed of...

So why be angry?

reply to post by OpinionatedB


I see things as you do. God knows all.

But, I don't agree on us not being "animals" thanks to Adam and Eve. They were in God's presence, imagine. When Moses saw "the back" of God, Moses's face shone. The glory of God shone upon him. People were afraid or "WOW-ed" when they looked at Moses. They were in awe.

Now imagine how Adam and Eve must have shone. Being in God's presence everyday whereas Moses saw His back? I know Adam or Eve did not see the face of God, but they experienced His presence on a level no other human has. Just imagine what beauty it must have been.

They weren't like animals before, but quite and totally the opposite. Being naked was of no issue 'cos they did not know evil at that certain time.

That was love (Agape). Today seeing someone naked, or thinking of them walking naked, we lean towards sexual love/ideas. The purest love (Agape) does not see the naked body as we do today. Adam and Eve experienced that LOVE

reply to post by Cuervo


When Adam and Eve ate the apple that introduced a nature of "sin". The knowledge of evil allows us to commit/choose sin and sin is anything that is against the will of God. That knowledge leads to always having a choice before us, which leads to some people making the wrong choices and death being the result.

We opened up for our selves the possibility of death and hell with that knowledge and choice. That in and of itself can seem daunting for some, to have that possibility before us.

At the same time, that knowledge allows us to overcome evil, and opens up the possibility of knowing God on a level unimaginable to even the angels. That to me is truly amazing.

So, in the after, if you are to ask the people who made the wrong choices if they liked having knowledge of good and evil, you might not hear them saying it was a good thing - contrary to popular belief.

The only ones who do and will appreciate that knowledge, are the ones who used it to know God better.

reply to post by KaelemJames


What they experienced, not even they understood, because it was in complete innocence, Anything in complete innocence can never be appreciated, not in truth, because there is no mode of comparison.

With the mode of comparison, evil, they can then truly KNOW God, on a much different level.

reply to post by OpinionatedB


True. In flesh no one can understand God, no matter. We experience love when we meditate, and it puts us on a plane/level words cannot explain.

Once you get that spiritual high, you seek it with such passion, it tires the soul and can lead to one falling of the path. It takes me at least 30 mins to fall away into deep meditation, and then only can I start experiencing love. When the tears of love starts to flow all that's of this world disappear.

I envy people (I know it's a sin) who can fall into conversation with God straight away. But, hey, I am still a baby. I will get there.

My wish is that people would just start to commune with our Father, and experience Him for themselves. It is impossible to explain one's spiritual relationship and experience, and the awesomeness of it. You have go and be there yourself to understand it.

It's beautiful.