Cirrus clouds form from heavy metals and mineral dust

Lead, zinc, tin, copper, silver, molybdenum and other heavy metals along with mineral dusts comprise the particles that form cirrus.

Mineral dusts suck up moisture.

Time, I think, for debunkers to get in and create some distance between aviation emissions and cirrus formation.

Most of us have watched the cirrus form from jet emissions. Most have seen the images of an entire sky finally obscured by jet emissions combining with each other to form cirrus. Most of us have heard of 30,000 feet for visible jet emissions. This study was done on cirrus 20,000 feet and up.

How did heavy metals get up so high? How come no indications of automobile pollutions up there? How come no marine stuff nucleating up there? What do you think about the only things that are up there and their place in this mineral dust/heavy metal process?

Links that follow are first a story on the study that brought this information to us. Second, the study itself. Third, a story on the moisture sucking mineral dust with proposals for geoengineering. Last, the Contrail Science website verifying 30,000 feet and also confirming for us that we've been watching jet emissions spread out to cover the entire sky.

Cirrus Cloud seeds indentified - will help in Climate knowledge

Cirrus clouds form around mineral dust and metallic particles, study finds

The team sampled cirrus clouds using instruments aboard high-altitude research aircraft, analyzing particles collected during multiple flights over a nine-year period. They found that the majority of cloud particles freeze, or nucleate, around two types of seeds: mineral dust and metallic aerosols.

From 2002 to 2011, the team conducted four flight missions in regions of North America and Central America where cirrus clouds often form. Before takeoff, the team received weather forecasts, including information on where and when clouds might be found.

More than 60 percent of cloud particles consisted of mineral dust blown into the atmosphere, as well as metallic aerosols.

Cziczo notes that while mineral dust is generally regarded as a natural substance originating from dry or barren regions of the Earth, agriculture, transportation and industrial processes also release dust into the atmosphere.

“Mineral dust is changing because of human activities,” Cziczo says. “You may think of dust as a natural particle, but some percentage of it is manmade, and it really points to a human ability to change these clouds.”

Cziczo’s team also identified a “menagerie of metal compounds,” including lead, zinc and copper, that may point to a further human effect on cloud formation. “These things are very strange metal particles that are almost certainly from industrial activities, such as smelting and open-pit burning of electronics,” Cziczo adds. Lead is also emitted in the exhaust of small planes.

Contrary to what many lab experiments have found, the team observed very little evidence of biological particles, such as bacteria or fungi, or black carbon emitted from automobiles and smokestacks.

Despite the length of the study and its different geographic locations, the researchers found similar outcomes: About 60 percent of the cloud particles they analyzed could be traced to mineral dust blown into the atmosphere, or to metallic aerosols.

Twohy said the scientists have not yet traced the origin of the dust to see how much of it came from natural versus anthropogenic causes. The metallic aerosols, she added, are unusual and may be easier to trace to specific sources. Containing elements like lead, zinc, tin and copper, they appear to be from industrial activities, according to other scientists in the study.

Clarifying the Dominant Sources and Mechanisms of Cirrus Cloud Formation

Dust dries clouds by gobbling up water vapor

they found that dust particles act to reduce the overall number of ice crystals by competing for the water vapor in ice crystal formation. This results in a net cooling effect of Earth's climate. Their findings have implications for possible dust seeding of cirrus clouds to offset effects of global warming.

Cirrus clouds can be formed by the homogeneous freezing of sulfate solution droplets at temperatures lower than -37 degrees Celsius in conditions of high relative humidity. However, their findings show that cirrus clouds can also be formed by heterogeneous nucleation on dust particles, which produces larger ice crystals that settle down faster and dry out the cloud.

Contrail Science

Contrails typically form above 30,000 feet, or around six to eight miles straight up.

It’s interesting because it shows that back in 1980 people were noticing contrails persisting and spreading to cover the whole sky. At that point people had even noticed it contributed to increased cloudiness.

reply to post by luxordelphi

From your first source:

The fact that mineral dust and metallic aerosols are identified would suggest that as mining, smelting, and industrialization have increased, so would cirrus cloud formation, though it may be more complex than that. Even so, I suspect somebody will use this new finding to suggest yet another geoengineering scheme to cool the planet by creating more cirrus clouds. – Anthony

It seems that Anthony was, indeed, correct.

See ya,
Milt

reply to post by BenReclused


Yes...mineral dust: the new geoengineering darling. Suck up all the moisture in the air and clouds disappear. Perhaps this would work for contrails as well. There seems to be some sort of logical flaw in this plan, though, because cirrus are forming from mineral dust; not disappearing from it. But perhaps the answer is more dust delivered to 30,000 feet. (We'll worry about the water cycle later.)

reply to post by luxordelphi

Suck up all the moisture in the air and clouds disappear. Perhaps this would work for contrails as well. There seems to be some sort of logical flaw in this plan, though, because cirrus are forming from mineral dust; not disappearing from it.

You are correct! There is, indeed, a logical flaw in that plan. That flaw is your lack of understanding of the process of nucleation. Perhaps, you should read up on that, before you continue on the road that we all know you're headed down.

See ya,
Milt

BenReclused
reply to post by luxordelphi

 

Suck up all the moisture in the air and clouds disappear. Perhaps this would work for contrails as well. There seems to be some sort of logical flaw in this plan, though, because cirrus are forming from mineral dust; not disappearing from it.

You are correct! There is, indeed, a logical flaw in that plan. That flaw is your lack of understanding of the process of nucleation. Perhaps, you should read up on that, before you continue on the road that we all know you're headed down.

See ya,
Milt

edit on 144America/Chicago11RAmerica/Chicago2013-11-30T20:28:01-06:00Saturday00000001America/Chicago by BenReclused because: Typo

Your mystification about the nucleation process here in this study is understandable because this study refutes previous thinking.

Our results demonstrate that mineral dust and metallic particles are the dominant source of residual particles, while sulfate/organic particles are underrepresented and elemental carbon and biological material are essentially absent. Further, composition analysis combined with relative humidity measurements suggest heterogeneous freezing was the dominant formation mechanism of these clouds.

The combination of in situ determination of IR composition, relative humidity measurements and ice crystal number densities from multiple field campaigns in different regions present a compelling case to consider heterogeneous freezing the dominant mechanism of cirrus formation throughout the study regions. These data stand in contrast to recent model studies which suggest the opposite.

So mineral dusts were a mistake...however they got there.

Where did the dust and metals come from a thousand years ago to make clouds back then ?

reply to post by luxordelphi


What about the cirrus clouds that existed before planes were flying?

How do you suppose the dust got up there then?

But you're right, you've discovered that clouds are formed form dust particles, better known as aerosols.

Even Mars has cirrus!

reply to post by luxordelphi

Your mystification about the nucleation process here in this study is understandable because this study refutes previous thinking.

No, this isn't about any "mystification" that I might have. It's about you not understanding this study, and what the "previous thinking" was:

a compelling case to consider heterogeneous freezing the dominant mechanism of cirrus formation throughout the study regions. These data stand in contrast to recent model studies which suggest the opposite.

What did you determine the "opposite" of "heterogeneous freezing" was?

So mineral dusts were a mistake...however they got there.

How so? The study didn't suggest that.

See ya,
Milt

Cziczo’s team also identified a “menagerie of metal compounds,” including lead, zinc and copper, that may point to a further human effect on cloud formation. “These things are very strange metal particles that are almost certainly from industrial activities, such as smelting and open-pit burning of electronics,” Cziczo adds. Lead is also emitted in the exhaust of small planes.

You ask why no automobile exhaust components - but what would those be? Petrol for cars was unleaded by the time the study started (2002) - he only fuel still containing lead is 100LL - which stands for "Low Lead" as opposed to previous leaded fuels - and that is still used in light aircraft - the "small planes" mentioned.

What other metallic compounds do you think would be indicative of pollution from cars?

This paper from 1998 titled "Electron microscope analysis of residual particles from aircraft contrails" notes that the particles they found appeared to be about 50/50 sourced from the aircraft exhaust and "ambient aerosol":

Here is hte abstract:

Ice crystal larger than about 5 μm diameter were separated from interstitial particles in aircraft contrails and evaporated. Residual particles larger than 0.1 μm were analyzed by electron microscopy. Soot, metals, and volatile organic substances, apparently from the aircraft exhaust, were found. However, the residual particles also contained high percentages of minerals, thought to be crustal in origin, that were often mixed with sulfur. The percentages of particles in our samples (representing the larger residual particles from relatively large ice crystals) identified as exhaust-derived and the percentage apparently derived from the ambient aerosol were roughly equal, suggesting that ambient particles may be important in contrail formation. Possible explanations for this are presented.

reply to post by luxordelphi

Time, I think, for debunkers to get in and create some distance between aviation emissions and cirrus formation.

And why would that be?

luxordelphi
Last, the Contrail Science website verifying 30,000 feet and also confirming for us that we've been watching jet emissions spread out to cover the entire sky.

Actually the emissions from jet exhaust make up less than 0.1% of a persistent contrail so that's not what is covering the sky

reply to post by luxordelphi


I commend you on trying a new angle, but I have asked before, and I will try once more. Why would someone who seems intelligent, completely disregard the obvious science in favor of a fantasy? Just based on this OP alone, you seem to completely understand, or at least have access to the science involved.

Why must contrails be chemtrails?

reply to post by network dude

Why must contrails be chemtrails?

Because they are, in the fantasy world of chem tales.

reply to post by luxordelphi


if we assume that the "chemtrails" are some sort of govt conspiracy to promote climate change,kill humans,manipulate some change......where is the evidence? Drought,cancer,alien zombies??

reply to post by blkcwbyhat

if we assume that the "chemtrails" are some sort of govt conspiracy to promote climate change,kill humans,manipulate some change......where is the evidence? Drought,cancer,alien zombies??

Questions that have yet to be answered by any chemtrail believer, and I don't expect to see an answer any time soon.

reply to post by luxordelphi


More great research for me to dive into. Thanks....S&F.

Along with the growing stock pile of patent's, proposals, and declarations of owning or controlling weather, we also have the motive.

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad says Europe 'stealing Iran's rain'

www.telegraph.co.uk...

Ya, ya, ya....I know....it's Ahmadinejad.....just as credible as any one of the "usual suspects" on this thread.

JHumm
Where did the dust and metals come from a thousand years ago to make clouds back then ?

Clouds back then were from natural sources and were a part of natural cycles. As far as anyone knows. This thread is about a recent study on cirrus clouds. Cirrus clouds are ice clouds that form at high altitudes - over 20,000 feet.

How Cirrus Clouds Form - And Why It Matters

The study/article doesn't really address historic cirrus formation. It addresses cirrus formation over a 9 year span ending in 2011. There are some surprises in the study - things that seem to refute previous studies/thoughts. These findings may try to revise ideas on past cirrus formation as well. All we really know for sure is that this is how cirrus is forming now. We have added a lot of variables to the environment since ancient times either to try to improve on nature or just in ignorance of environmental impacts or just as an unchecked by-product of civilization.

The heavy metals in the study are not from nature and the mineral dusts may not be either or the processes that formed them may not be natural. Combustion and natural sources, per the article, "don't seem to contribute much."

There are many poorly understood natural cycles in our world. When we impact on these cycles, we change them and sometimes we change them without meaning to because we didn't really understand what would happen or what side-effects our tampering and polluting might have.

Secrets of Cloud Formation, Revealed in the Amazon

Hundreds of years ago, the sources of cloud condensation nuclei were almost exclusively natural: Dust kicked up by the wind, soot carried off in the smoke of a forest fire, ash spewed from a volcano, sea salt cast off from a crashing wave, and so on. But since the dawn of the industrial revolution, that’s changed. We’ve been pumping our own particulates into the atmosphere as we burn coal, oil, and other fossil fuels.

In fact, there is so much particulate matter in the air in heavily developed regions like North America and Europe—mostly from pollutants—that scientists are unable to easily study which particles impact cloud formation and how. The “cleanest” atmosphere in rural North America, for example, has 2,000 or more particles per cubic centimeter; most are from pollution.

There are a few places where particulate signals are quieter. One is the oceans, far away from land. There, studies have shown that clouds form differently. Or put another way, clouds on land form differently than over ocean because of pollutants released on land. “The research suggests that this is from us, that we have changed clouds over land,” Martin says. But we still don’t know how, exactly, pollution has changed the process or how clouds once formed over land.

Fortunately, there’s another place to study clouds—over the Amazon, where particulate levels remain low. There, the atmosphere is so clean that it mimics air from the 1750s, prior to industrialization.

So my thoughts here would be these: best to deal with what is rather than what should be or what prior rules tell us should be happening. The study may only be describing a transitory situation based on the pollutions currently being released. Don't take it as law because it is only a description within the parameters of the test of what is going on.

luxordelphi
There are many poorly understood natural cycles in our world. When we impact on these cycles, we change them and sometimes we change them without meaning to because we didn't really understand what would happen or what side-effects our tampering and polluting might have.

And yet, just a post or so ago, you said:

But perhaps the answer is more dust delivered to 30,000 feet. (We'll worry about the water cycle later.)

So apparently you're for interfering with the natural cycles too, without understanding what would happen.

reply to post by AlphaHawk

Even Mars has cirrus!

Yes...and that's something to take note of, imo, that Mars and other planets in our solar system are developing weather.

What about the cirrus clouds that existed before planes were flying?

One of the things about them, then, was that they were used by indigenous peoples to predict future weather. Today, they are the focus of a number of supposedly still proposed geoengineering schemes. One of those schemes (see OP) was mineral dust at 30,000 or so feet. Metals of various kinds have also been proposed. These schemes, officially, are not taking place and yet their effects are coming up in this study. There is the concern.

A concern also is that mineral dusts were supposed to make clouds disappear and maybe they have made rain clouds disappear but they seem to be the particle of choice for cirrus.

But you're right, you've discovered that clouds are formed form dust particles, better known as aerosols.

I have discovered nothing - NASA et al has made these recent discoveries. From the article:

Cziczo notes that while mineral dust is generally regarded as a natural substance originating from dry or barren regions of the Earth, agriculture, transportation and industrial processes also release dust into the atmosphere.

“Mineral dust is changing because of human activities,” Cziczo says. “You may think of dust as a natural particle, but some percentage of it is manmade, and it really points to a human ability to change these clouds.”

The thing that I consider with the particles creating cirrus is: who was the last person in that room at 30,000 feet?

Witness2008
reply to post by luxordelphi

 

Along with the growing stock pile of patent's,...

AFAIK the stockpile of patents is decreasing - since most of the usual list are long out of patent - even the infamous Welsbach patent expired in 2010!!