Khufu Cartouche in Great Pyramid 20,000 Years Old?

reply to post by Scott Creighton


Thanks for letting me know Scott.. I had not heard of these recent developments... I shall read and absorb....

Regards.

PA

reply to post by Scott Creighton


Very interesting... very interesting indeed... It is the first I have heard of the claims of Humphries Brewer... And what he reports does seem to tie up with my own opinion of the origination of the markings in the relief chambers...

Now all we need is the test to be carried out and we can shed some light as to the veracity of these marks... But what happens if they are discovered to be created by Vyse I ask? Would modern Egyptology then revise their theories regarding the inception of the Great Pyramid given that this is the only piece of evidence supporting the current theory? I think not.... although common sense would dictate otherwise...

Given the tone of your previous threads and your obvious depth of knowledge what is your opinion Scott? I assume like me you believe the Vyse markings to be counterfeit, but what is your opinion on the claim that Kufu originally constructed the Great Pyramid?

Also, what are your thoughts regarding the "Pyramids as machines" theory... Energy producing/light producing/sound producing....

I would be very interested in reading your responses....

Kind regards.

PA

PerfectAnomoly
reply to post by Scott Creighton

 

Now all we need is the test to be carried out and we can shed some light as to the veracity of these marks...

SC: I am not sure now that this is a possibility. As I understand matters, the testing of the samples has now been halted and are now in safe storage at SGS Laboratories pending criminal investigation. As I understand it, negotiations are ongoing with the Egyptian authorities (I presume to repatriate the samples but don't quote me on it). I have contacted SGS Laboratories asking for confirmation of the present situation. I'll post any update as and when it arrives (though doubtful given the highly sensitive nature of this and the potential for criminal prosecution).

PA: But what happens if they are discovered to be created by Vyse I ask?

SC: For this to happen the Egyptian authorities would need to actually test material from the actual cartouche itself and date it to ca.1837 CE (would they even reveal such information?). Given that this would be a destructive process, one must question the likelihood of this ever occurring. (Although it didn't stop the Catholic Church from having a fragment of the Turin Shroud tested).

PA: Would modern Egyptology then revise their theories regarding the inception of the Great Pyramid given that this is the only piece of evidence supporting the current theory? I think not.... although common sense would dictate otherwise...

SC: It is certainly the most tangible piece of evidence linking Khufu (Khnum-Khufu) to the Great Pyramid although, of course, this does not mean it was constructed as his tomb. If it ever transpires that the Khufu cartouche dates to modern times then I think it is safe to denounce it as a fraud perpetrated by a known fraudster, Howard-Vyse. Excluding this material then the connection then goes all the way back to Herodotus who claimed that Suphis (or Sophis) constructed the Great Pyramid, a name that etymologists and linguists have transliterated into 'Khufu'.

PA: Given the tone of your previous threads and your obvious depth of knowledge what is your opinion Scott? I assume like me you believe the Vyse markings to be counterfeit...

SC: I certainly think that, given the character of the man as a known fraudster, it has to be a real possibility or, indeed, probability. The man simply is not a credible witness. We need further scientific evidence to fully determine the truth of this and this is something I have been asking to happen for some considerable time in my books and articles.

PA:... but what is your opinion on the claim that Kufu originally constructed the Great Pyramid?

SC: To be honest I don't have a problem with that because, imo, Khufu was not a king of the 4th dynasty that Egyptologists attribute him to. If you consider the KIng's List of Abydos you will see that the name that is supposed to be 'Khufu' actually reads 'Ra-ufu'. Now this is a fairly complex argument and I won't go into it here but I have reasonable evidence that proves the name really is 'Ra-ufu' as opposed to a variant of 'Khufu' that conventional Egyptology asserts. It is my opinion that Khufu was much more ancient than the 4th Dynasty and that it is 'Ra-Ufu' (the name we find in the King's List) that existed in the 4th Dynasty ca.2,500 BCE.

SC: Also, what are your thoughts regarding the "Pyramids as machines" theory... Energy producing/light producing/sound producing....

SC: I think the work of Christopher Dunn is quite exceptional in demonstrating a very high sophistication in working very hard stone by ancient civilisations--there is simply no doubt about that. My own view, however, is coloured by the evidence that has actually been found within the pyramids and some of the ancient texts that tell us why they were built--as storage facilities to ensure the rebirth of the kingdom (not the king) after the astronomer-priests had observed that the orientation of the heavens had changed and believed this would bring about flood and fire some 300 years in their future. The king ordered the construction of the pyramids to protect "all that was of esteem" in the kingdom to ensure its revival, its recovery. And when you consider the primary evidence of vast quantities of all manner of seed types found in, under and around the Step Pyramid along with the tens of thousands of storage/distribution vessels found there also and combine this with the secondary evidence of massive grain storage in the Great Pyramid, you have to ask yourself--is there perhaps some truth to these ancient texts that describe such a function for the pyramids. I believe there is and this explains why no body of any king has ever been found in any of the early, giant pyramids and explains also why the so-called 'sarcophagus' of G2 at Giza was found (by Belzoni in 1818) to be filled only with earth, stones and some fragments of bull bones (there was a reason for this), I could go on but will stop here. Suffice to say, there is no empirical, primary evidence whatsoever that the Giza pyramids (or any of the others) were conceived as tombs (although some were used as such with intrusive burials).

You might find my paper 10 Facts that Contradict the Pyramid Tomb Theory of some interest.

Regards,

SC

SasquatchHunter

Rosinitiate

AliceBleachWhite

I challenge anyone to produce ANY form of verifiable legitimate working complex writing system that's even just 10,000 years old.

I challenge you as a 'scientist' to want to support genuine scientific testing.

Again, if the data comes back at 20,000 years or older. Would you support a public and transparent testing of the orchre or has your scientific itch been scratched with what is already known and hell with new data presented?

Really? Is Alice a scientist or claim to be one? Does it matter? No it doesn't the evidence is so overwhelmingly against it being possible for the Pyramid to be 20,000 years old its an established fact. We could sit here for the next 100 years with anyone using facts to debunk this crap. The poster just asked you to do something you should be able to do to support your claims of a 20,000 year old Pyramid of Giza.

Some guys selling a cheap DVD are making these claims so it must be true!!!!!!!! Who cares about a mountain of evidence VS one DVD.

At the same time, there is an overwhelming amount of evidence suggesting the great pyramid is significantly older than we think (recent carbon dating puts it at 3500 BC) and also suggesting it is significantly older than the 1st through to 4th dynasty pyramids. See my earlier posts in this thread (page 5 or 6 I believe).

Considering the fact that the components of the great pyramid that were carbon tested weren't necessarily integral parts but rather surrounding quarry material and inner chamber material, one could technically conclude that this shows ACTIVITY or some form of construction work around or within the pyramid at around 3500BC BUT the actual pyramid could have been standing well before that time. What supports this strongly is the Sphinx, since all carbon dating on any of its vital components pushed the date back to 4500-5000BC. Lets not forget that the ancients Egyptians were a civilisation who took great pride in their knowledge and placed the upmost importance on sharing their beliefs and wisdom, and yet they did not document once the purpose or construction of the great pyramid and the sphinx. Doesn't that strike you as odd? Especially considering that they are significant records associated with the smaller, imperfect pyramids?

Why would Khufu commission the greatest building of the ancient era, have it incorporate various (undiscovered officially at the time) mathematics such as pi, phi and so forth, and then have his people practically pull off a MIRACLE in regards to constructing it - only to not have any of these details ever mentioned, to have no significant attachment stated between the pyramid and himself (his fathers 'tomb' was 30 miles away, why would he?), and to have no hieroglyphs inscribed detailing anything important. That is all logical to you, yeah? Am I missing something here?

The list goes on and on.

Once again, no one should automatically jump to the conclusion that the pyramid is 20,000 years old because of one apparent test, but one thing for sure is that the great pyramid and sphinx definitely appear (by the principles of science and logic) to be older than our current understanding, and potentially older than the ancient Egyptians themselves (unless they are older than we think!).

It's all food for thought anyway. The past is done, but I personally would sure like to know in great detail what happened on Earth between. 40,000BC and 5000BC. This is an absurdly long time for the human civilisation, yet we literally show a few signs of life between those two points (Venus figurines, lion man figurine) and then we have a relatively advanced civilisation pop up with a very distinct belief system and an attempt to share their knowledge of the previous however many years. We are silly as modern men to completely dismiss the stories of the FIRST advanced civilisations, especially when all their records show their belief systems were directly linked to humanoid, earth manifesting entities. It is very possible that there were advanced civilisations in the past, rather than the assumed model of hunter gatherers for 195,000 years then suddenly advanced civilisation crops up.

If you really don't like that idea, then you can simply accept that the Ancient Egyptians were A LOT more advanced than we accredit them to be, and that over the next 1000 years of their civilisation they degraded in knowledge and technology. Which in itself begs more questions. Why did they start out so knowledgeable and declined? But let me tell you straight, and I don't like using this as a point much but I've had enough of trying to provide multiple angles of evidence all the time - I am a mechanical engineer to Masters Degree level - and I've had various experience across enough fields to feel comfortably enough to comment on this, despite my relatively young age;

THE GREAT PYRAMID CANNOT BE BUILT BY THE EGYPTIANS AS WE KNOW THEM!

If you don't want to trust me, don't. But I know what I'm talking about, I know about manufacturing and material usage for tools, I know how to achieve good tolerances and surface finishes, and the techniques and internal designs required for some of the complex geometry displayed around Egypt. Copper tools and a windlass? # off! They were more advanced than that. The open extrusion in the Kings Chamber for example has practically 90 degree straight faces with a smooth surface finish. This is NOT something you achieve by banging granite with copper lol, or by sanding with some sort of grit material. But hey ho, you probably won't believe me - which is why I won't go into the other engineering based miracles they pulled off if they only had copper tools and a windlass.

We have still many things to discover about our past and the past civilisations, and I honestly think the great pyramid and the sphinx are prime examples of that.

reply to post by Scott Creighton


it seems the theft happened in 2002 - not sure but here is more info on the event:
weekly.ahram.org.eg...

www.egyptindependent.com...

english.ahram.org.eg...

I remember watching something on the history channel years ago about a known archaeologist who himself was a skeptic until he studied the weathering on the Spinx, and figured out it was at least 10K years old. What ever happened to that theory and that archaeologist?

This story really seems to be all over the place. Todat I read in Spiegel That the two students did NOT remove any part of the Khufu cartouche as it was "sacred to them" but on their promotion site they say this:

"This enabled us to take the samples of the king's cartridge." - Source.

The term cartouche was first applied by French soldiers who observed that the cartouche of the King's name resembled a muzzle-loading firearm's paper powder cartridge (cartouche in French).

Dr Hawass also commented in Egyptian Independent newspaper that the researchers "... the Germans told the inspectors of the site that they are filming a documentary about the pyramid." (Thanks to Brettrix for the Source). This must have occurred some time ago since Hawass has not been in charge now for about two years.

It seems the students along with a Film company attempted to crowd-fund the completion of their documentary (but failed to raise the funds needed). Does this mean then that they have actually had the tests completed on the material and that they were trying to make a documentary of their 'activities''? If they have the information from the Lab already and if that information is in any way controversial then I suspect it will not be released as part of some 'plea-bargain' with the Egyptian authorities.

SC

AliceBleachWhite

Scientists in every concentration love to eat other Scientists for breakfast, lunch, dinner, or even just a snack if it frees up funding and gets their own projects notice for funding.
It's not as bloody as it sounds, but, at the same time, it is.
If there was a 20,000 year old pre-dynastic advanced civilization that could be proven, whoever could saddle that pony and ride it would have name-brand recognition the likes of Einstein, and no lack of funding.
The field has had generations and generations of eager minds chomping to make such discoveries and become part of History themselves in doing so.

edit on 12/2/2013 by AliceBleachWhite because: (no reason given)

All very true, but If everyone made amazing discoveries, we'd all be Einsteins and Da Vinci's and such. Most of the people that have contributed most to our technology and advancement were not strictly scientists. Some were, obviously, or became scienstist, but they still had a lot of weird stuff going on.

A lot of them had a very peculiar interest in the same topics people on ATS like ;p (the occult, the vedas & buddism, etc)

I guess my point being that, even someone without a scientific, could make amazing discoveries, but i'm quite sure scientists would be very scared to even look at the data out of fear for their reputations.

Take the giza pyramid... No offense, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to at least admit they're not tombs. Even if all else is correct, and they're built when Egyptologists say they're built, it's still a big change of perception of how the AE thought and worked.

Ofcourse Egypt doesn't like their standard model challenged... They live of the tourist industry...

Sorry for my poor english :-)

They should have kept quiet about it until after the testing was finished, or at least labeled the sample as something else entirely. They blew it by saying anything before the release of the results.

So what would this tell us if the pyramids are in fact 20,000 years old, or perhaps even older? Me thinks that TPTB wouldn't like that because it would make the bible less credible than it already is, not to mention, many other historic inaccuracies would be exposed. Good job I say. We need answers. S&F

GargIndia
reply to post by Aazadan

 

The rollers and springs corrode, and metals are subject to creep. The building will have to be 'maintained' forever.

You forget that pyramids have stood for so long without any care.

Pyramids are great feat of engineering, even from modern science perspective.

I didn't forget any of that, it was in the post prior to what you quoted. I gave examples of technologies we have that the Ancient Egyptians would have loved to know about. We have much more high tech methods these days, however despite that we cannot make a building as perfect as the Pyramid. It withstands earthquakes better than anything we have built, it has stood without maintenance for 5000 years at a minimum, and it incorporates engineering techniques that we still don't understand today.

Hi Restricted,

Restricted
They should have kept quiet about it until after the testing was finished, or at least labeled the sample as something else entirely. They blew it by saying anything before the release of the results.

SC: Hmm... the plot thickens. It now seems that paint WAS taken from the cartouche of Khufu and that it HAS been C14 dated. The result... sit down folks... the result of the C14 dating apparently dates the pigment from the Khufu cartouche to "centuries". Not millennia as you might expect but "centuries". Here is the Google translation from the Arabic of Professor Ahmed Saied (apparently of Cairo University) who has been following and commenting on this story:

Saied: "...they have analyzed samples of the cartouche of Khufu and reached the result, which is that Khufu did not build the Great Pyramid and that the ink used in the cartridges to jot down details constructed the pyramid is not old, but the age of the pyramid itself is larger than life, cartouche centuries, which confirms that the pyramid is not due to Khufu ..." - Source (4th paragraph).

It certainly seems that Professor Saied is saying that:

a) The paint samples were taken from the Khufu Cartouche (and it seems many years ago).
b) The samples HAVE been analysed (in Germany).
c) Results of the tests HAVE been returned.
d) The paint "is not old" but "centuries".

If true then this proves that Howard-Vyse did indeed, as many have long suspected, forge the Khufu Cartouche inside the Great Pyramid.

Okay--I think merry hell is about to break loose now.

Regards,

SC

reply to post by Scott Creighton


Literally and good. The truth at last!

randyvs
reply to post by Scott Creighton

 

The great pyramid is a remnant of a
bygone world.
This is what is truly upsetting those who claim all knowledge of antiquity.
Twenty thousand years age is confirmation of a disposed world before ours.
Thus exposing the truth of a world wide flood. Confirmation of the Biblical is
uppsetting for the elite and their beloved evolution you know ?

edit on 1-12-2013 by randyvs because: (no reason given)

I too believe a great flood took place. IMO, I believe there was once a great global society where all cultures existed together as a whole. Egypt being the central hub for all. A time where there was great knowledge never seen since. Again, this is only my opinions, but I think they knew a great flood was coming, and they had two choices. To either stay or leave. I think most decided to leave.

I f they find the testing to be at 20.000+ years, It changes everything! Many religious texts will even have to be reconsidered. And I think there are many out there who don’t want to see that happen.

reply to post by AliceBleachWhite

Yeah, because we all know that once the tourists come walking in, that will be the first thing they notice.

If a few paint chips will help bring great knowledge of our past into light, than I say take a cup full just to make sure.

reply to post by Propulsion


There was a 7 day flood around 5200 years before when it rained non-stop for seven days and ocean levels rose dramatically.

This event sank the city of Dwarka on the Western coast of India.

There was no worldwide deluge, and no such signs are available.

The pyramids were never under-water.

The Egyptians were NEVER a central civilization as you infer.

The modern humans have a view of history that is highly distorted. Unfortunately the political dispensation is very comfortable with this view of history as it serves their purpose.

LeviWardrobe
reply to post by randyvs

 

TO a time that is impossible to explain with todays history. From there it's just common sense.

Not impossible to explain. There is scientific evidence [it is accepted in the global scientific community] that humans, as we are today, have existed for at least 200'000 years. Do you think we were spear throwing nomads for 190'000 or so years, then suddenly created written language and started building cities? Nobody should be surprised if the giza complex is shown to be 20'000 years old. All it'd prove is that we were around making stuff 20'000 years ago. It is not "common sense" to assume older civilizations prove a global flood. I don't get the connection at all. It's just biased thinking. If we made things 10'000 years ago, we could make things 20'000 years ago. Evolution doesn't move that quick. We were essentially as capable 10'000 years ago as we were 20'000. If the date were pushed back 100'000 years, that'd be surprising. But anything over the past 50'000 years isn't really surprising.

Science is a frontier field. There is no 'end game'. Yeah, the story of our race is probably incomplete. Science keeps moving forwards. In 100 years we may have made discovered of even older civilizations that were lost to time. Reclaimed by nature, or lost to catastrophes or roaming glaciers. You're argument isn't even an argument. Humans have been around for ~200'000 years. We're bound to amend our history every once in a while. 20'000 years is not astounding.

edit on 1-12-2013 by LeviWardrobe because: (no reason given)

edit on 1-12-2013 by LeviWardrobe because: (no reason given)

I agree with your perspective. If man has been running around doing his/her thing for the past 200,000 years, why would it not be possible for man to build the pyramids 20,000 years ago? Why not even 50,000 years ago or even longer than that? I think it is ridiculous and naive to think 4500 years ago is somehow the magical number where man (all of a sudden), decided it was the perfect time to get it things into gear.

I would love to know if the Bosnian Pyramid were the real deal. Only because it would show those egotistic a-holes in Egypt that there were others out there who could build even bigger than what they have going in Egypt.

reply to post by Propulsion

If a few paint chips will help bring great knowledge of our past into light, than I say take a cup full just to make sure.

A great thought is worth thinking.

reply to post by Scott Creighton


So no more Khufu?
Did khufu even existed? or the real kings name was Raufu?

Also I don't believe the GP was build only for seed storage in case of emergency for a few centuries (so much sophistication and sacred geometry only for some seeds?),insteed it may was used to keep sacred knowlege that was meant to survive inside for thousands of years to enlighten future generations Imo it has an age of at least 14,000 y

I believe after the ice age(, cataclysm, flood or whatever happened) Ancient egyptians established in this area becouse of the already ancient to them sites and probably regained the knowlege from the builders of the pyramids, then rebuilded and did some maintenance to the site. and tried to copy the first ones... but that doesn't mean they could understand everything the original builders left for them inside. (I wonder if we could today)

There was no doubt that ancient egyptians holded sacred knowlege, that might have come from the pre-cataclismic Giza Structures (GP, Sphinx, Osirion)

Pythagoras was supposed to have stayed to egypt for some years for the purpose of collecting all available knowledge and especially to learn information concerning the secret or mystic cults of the gods and sacred knowlege and geometry, Pythagoras received instruction from the Egyptian priest Oenuphis.
Also as plato states an egyptian priest of Sais translated to greek the story af Atlantis, and both civilizations talk about a time when Gods lived on earth. and their weird technology (flying ships, flying chariots, lighting bolts,and various supernatural characteristics.)]

Couldn't there be a pre - ice age advanced worldwide civilization that the ancients refer to as Gods?, Even Mayans had a similar story.

Take a look at us while in most of the world we are supposed to be advanced and have technology, there are still some tribes living in caves or like nomads like prehistoric people. If after 14000 years a future archeologist happens to come across some findings of those tribes would it be normal to assume that 14000 before all humans on earth lived like that?


If only we had access to the great library of alexandia.... how many questions would be answered about ou past....

Rosinitiate

AliceBleachWhite

The vandalism itself immediately discredits any legitimacy these STUDENTS might have had to begin with.

I'm sorry but it discredits them? So they obtained 20,000 year pigment from where exactly?

Then the uproar over the vandalism is phooey? Or they damaged the pyramids in a grand hoax? Doesn't seem rational.

My question is how do we KNOW for certain the 'paint' is from the pyramid? Unless the testing was under controlled scientific conditions are we to just take their word for it?
This is not newsworthy as it is all hearsay unless they can prove where the paint was from, how exactly it was tested, etc.