Another couple found guilty of murder for parenting by "To Train Up a Child"

reply to post by OccamsRazor04




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“Look, I have two daughters who have not known a man; let me bring them out to you, and do to them as you please; only do nothing to these men, for they have come under the shelter of my roof.” (Gen 19:8nrsv).

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34 Then Jephthah came to his home at Mizpah; and there was his daughter coming out to meet him with timbrels and with dancing. She was his only child; he had no son or daughter except her. 35 When he saw her, he tore his clothes, and said, “Alas, my daughter! You have brought me very low; you have become the cause of great trouble to me. For I have opened my mouth to the Lord, and I cannot take back my vow.” 36 She said to him, “My father, if you have opened your mouth to the Lord, do to me according to what has gone out of your mouth, now that the Lord has given you vengeance against your enemies, the Ammonites.” 37 And she said to her father, “Let this thing be done for me: Grant me two months, so that I may go and wander[a] on the mountains, and bewail my virginity, my companions and I.” 38 “Go,” he said and sent her away for two months. So she departed, she and her companions, and bewailed her virginity on the mountains. 39 At the end of two months, she returned to her father, who did with her according to the vow he had made. She had never slept with a man. So there arose an Israelite custom that 40 for four days every year the daughters of Israel would go out to lament the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite. (Judges 11:29-40)

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11 From there they went against the inhabitants of Debir (the name of Debir was formerly Kiriath-sepher). 12 Then Caleb said, “Whoever attacks Kiriath-sepher and takes it, I will give him my daughter Achsah as wife.” 13 And Othniel son of Kenaz, Caleb’s younger brother, took it; and he gave him his daughter Achsah as wife. Judges 1:8-13

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4 Moses said, “Thus says the Lord: About midnight I will go out through Egypt. 5 Every firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, from the firstborn of Pharaoh who sits on his throne to the firstborn of the female slave who is behind the handmill, and all the firstborn of the livestock. 6 Then there will be a loud cry throughout the whole land of Egypt, such as has never been or will ever be again. 7 But not a dog shall growl at any of the Israelites—not at people, not at animals—so that you may know that the Lord makes a distinction between Egypt and Israel. 8 Then all these officials of yours shall come down to me, and bow low to me, saying, ‘Leave us, you and all the people who follow you.’ After that I will leave.” And in hot anger he left Pharaoh. Exodus 11

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13 One day when his sons and daughters were eating and drinking wine in the eldest brother’s house, 14 a messenger came to Job and said, “The oxen were plowing and the donkeys were feeding beside them, 15 and the Sabeans fell on them and carried them off, and killed the servants with the edge of the sword; I alone have escaped to tell you.” 16 While he was still speaking, another came and said, “The fire of God fell from heaven and burned up the sheep and the servants, and consumed them; I alone have escaped to tell you.” 17 While he was still speaking, another came and said, “The Chaldeans formed three columns, made a raid on the camels and carried them off, and killed the servants with the edge of the sword; I alone have escaped to tell you.” 18 While he was still speaking, another came and said, “Your sons and daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother’s house, 19 and suddenly a great wind came across the desert, struck the four corners of the house, and it fell on the young people, and they are dead; I alone have escaped to tell you.”

20 Then Job arose, tore his robe, shaved his head, and fell on the ground and worshiped. 21 He said, “Naked I came from my mother’s womb, and naked shall I return there; the Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.”

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4 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me, 6 but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments. Exodus 20

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Remember, O Lord, against the Edomites
the day of Jerusalem’s fall,
how they said, “Tear it down! Tear it down!
Down to its foundations!”
8 O daughter Babylon, you devastator!
Happy shall they be who pay you back
what you have done to us!
9 Happy shall they be who take your little ones
and dash them against the rock! Psalm 137

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Here's the Salon article that has the breakdown. www.salon.com...

Don't care for that site but it has them in a nifty go-to location.

Also BibleGateway.com has the bible online if you feel like reading it.

If it hasn't already been mentioned: Abuse of children has been proven to slow the normal growth and development of the brain, and leads to future mental and physical problems among the abused, and a number of other problems: acestudy.org...

There is a great slideshow and discussion of the study at www.documentarywire.com/bomb-in-the-brain

The authors of this book are monsters.


I am going to go and hug my kids now.

reply to post by Grimpachi


Many of these forms of discipline were done to me as a child.
This book is sick!

OrphanApology
Here's the Salon article that has the breakdown. www.salon.com...

Don't care for that site but it has them in a nifty go-to location.

Also BibleGateway.com has the bible online if you feel like reading it.

edit on 1-12-2013 by OrphanApology because: Be nice Jette.

(~note : "A" key only works when I cApitAlize it)

This website is hilArious.

Here they criticize ChristiAns for viewing their child As their property, yet in Another Article they defend Abortion by essentiAlly sAying the fetus is the womAn's body And therefore her property . . . . They Also support post birth Abortions . . . .

Of course this is All coming from the Atheist Acdemic left, According to SlAte.

In their defense slAte does Acknowledge thAt it is one crAzy justificAtion for infAntiside.

After-Birth Abortion
The pro-choice case for infanticide.
By William Saletan
www.slate.com...


Now in regArds to quotes from the Old TestAment it is cleAr those trying to Argue this cAse hAve An extremely low comprehension of ChrisitiAnity. ChristiAnity is bAsed on the NEW TESTAMENT with their God given by Jesus, the old lAws were trumped entirely by the new.

Trying to cAll this ChristiAn literAture As if it ActuAlly follows New TestAment lAw is disingenuous to the nth degree.

It is no different then me cAlling these AcAdemic Left Atheists As being representAtive of Atheism As A movement.

WhAt A joke.

-FBB

reply to post by Grimpachi


What is disturbing is that these "people" most likely go to a christian church. Most likely one of those more backwater fundamentalist ones. Then they gobble up a local idea and go with it, as is with this heinous book. You would think that adults would be of of a higher conscience. I was sadly mistaken....and it's not the first time.

Kratos

reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli


Are you seriously trying to justify the book and the people who wrote and follow it to the point of killing their child even adopted ones because …err..well “at least it isn’t abortion”?

That’s exactly how your post reads to me maybe I am alone in that thought but it seems like you are making equivocations.

I am sorry but I have no idea why abortion is even being brought up except maybe because Hana the girl that was tortured and murdered was adopted by the ones who killed her.

I am confused are you defending the book and the people behind and following it or not?

I hope you are not simply thread drifting because this is a serious issue and believe me I have restrained myself from saying some choice things tied to religion in this thread in hopes it could remain on topic.

reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli


My post and this topic has nothing to do with abortion. I linked to that particular article because it has many of the verses in one place. If you want to discuss abortion there are plenty of topics on ATS pertaining to abortion.

This topic has do with a Christian themed book condoning child abuse. It also has to do with the fact that somehow Christian believers do not think the bible condones child abuse, which it does.

If you had read the bible you'd know that the teachings of the new testament trumped the holy laws of the old testament. It didn't change the treatment of women or children. In no place did Jesus state that female children weren't to be traded like cattle nor children beat when they disobeyed their parents. In fact, many of the old verses are reiterated in the new testament:

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49 Therefore also the Wisdom of God said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and persecute,’ 50 so that the blood of all the prophets, shed from the foundation of the world, may be charged against this generation, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who perished between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, it will be required of this generation. Luke 11

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Here's from good ol' peace lovin' Jesus himself. Also if you think destroying whole cities or communities doesn't include child abuse then you are delusional at best:

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20 Then Jesus began to denounce the towns in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades.[a] For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. 24 But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.” Matthew 11:20-24

In case you've forgotten, Sodom was that city destroyed where the "holy" man who was saved as a result of offering up his virgin daughters in place of the two male visitors. He was such a good guy that he then offered up his concubine who was then brutally raped and died from the attack during the night. For this noble act he is spared. Funny thing Jesus makes no mention of that honorable man but rather of the city and how he is going to inflict much worse punishment by his own hand. What a great guy.

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Grimpachi
reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli

 

Are you seriously trying to justify the book and the people who wrote and follow it to the point of killing their child even adopted ones because …err..well “at least it isn’t abortion”?

That’s exactly how your post reads to me maybe I am alone in that thought but it seems like you are making equivocations.

I am sorry but I have no idea why abortion is even being brought up except maybe because Hana the girl that was tortured and murdered was adopted by the ones who killed her.

I am confused are you defending the book and the people behind and following it or not?

I hope you are not simply thread drifting because this is a serious issue and believe me I have restrained myself from saying some choice things tied to religion in this thread in hopes it could remain on topic.

edit on 1-12-2013 by Grimpachi because: (no reason given)

PleAse explAin where And how my posts hAve shown support for their behAvior?

I never defended the book And sAid they were NOT operAting under ChristiAn teAchings.

Nice try kiddo

-FBB

reply to post by OrphanApology


YeAh . . . . . pleAse try hArder.

ThAt exAmple is A huuuuuuuuuuggggggeeee stretch.

In regArds to posting from SlAte, I did so becAuse you And others like you Are trying to clAim thAt the teAchings of ChristiAnity promote violence AgAinst children.

I merely showed thAt your source Also gives voice to some insAne interpretAtions of "personhood" from Atheists.

-FBB

reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli


That’s why I asked for clarification SON. If you want to know where your posts came off that way it was the one I responded to. That’s how it read maybe I wasn’t clear enough explaining that to you. So to be crystal clear it was where you brought up abortion in a thread about child abuse, neglect, and murder by adopted parents following a Christian fundamentalist book.

Maybe I should quote you so you understand.

This website is hilArious.

Here they criticize ChristiAns for viewing their child As their property, yet in Another Article they defend Abortion by essentiAlly sAying the fetus is the womAn's body And therefore her property . . . . They Also support post birth Abortions . . . .

Of course this is All coming from the Atheist Acdemic left, According to SlAte.

In their defense slAte does Acknowledge thAt it is one crAzy justificAtion for infAntiside.

After-Birth Abortion
The pro-choice case for infanticide.
By William Saletan

For your review

reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli


The bible does promote child abuse. This is a topic about a Christian book that also promotes child abuse.

This isn't about atheists, obscure ideas, or anything else.

Also, it is not a stretch. Your rose colored glasses in regard to what's in the bible is what's a stretch. I would recommend reading the bible and actually researching the verses a bit before informing everyone how loving the new testament is in comparison to the old one. It isn't.

Destruction of a whole city includes the death and suffering of innocent children. If you don't think that's the case then that probably explains why so many Christians supported bombing the # out of Iraq.

The people who authored this book take a very literal interpretation to the bible as can be seen if you research them for five minutes. Unlike most believers they probably have read the bible a few times. Because of that and probably their own history of religious and physical abuse, they now wrote a great follow up that many follow.d

reply to post by Grimpachi


You cAn click on the bottom left of my profile And select "View Posts In ThreAd" from there you cAn reAd whAt I have posted previously.

In which you will find I AlreAdy denounced their Actions As those of SICK people.

An eye for an eye is not a Christian teaching . . . . you need to better educate yourself on this.

. . .

The world is full of sick people who claim to be things that they are not.

-FBB

I will Admit it wAs A nice Attempt At getting others to perceive my opinion As something contrAry to whAt it ActuAlly is.

PleAse try hArder next time.

-FBB

reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli


Then remain consistent. You remind me of groups that preach one thing then turn around and advocate another not realizing they are the same thing.

Opps..I may have hit a nerve with that but it remains true.

OrphanApology
reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli

 

The bible does promote child abuse. This is a topic about a Christian book that also promotes child abuse.

This isn't about atheists, obscure ideas, or anything else.

Also, it is not a stretch. Your rose colored glasses in regard to what's in the bible is what's a stretch. I would recommend reading the bible and actually researching the verses a bit before informing everyone how loving the new testament is in comparison to the old one. It isn't.

Destruction of a whole city includes the death and suffering of innocent children. If you don't think that's the case then that probably explains why so many Christians supported bombing the # out of Iraq.

The people who authored this book take a very literal interpretation to the bible as can be seen if you research them for five minutes. Unlike most believers they probably have read the bible a few times. Because of that and probably their own history of religious and physical abuse, they now wrote a great follow up that many follow.d

edit on 1-12-2013 by OrphanApology because: d

You do reAlize thAt Sodom wAs found to be without innocence?

Guess whAt, non-ChristiAns supported it As well. People of ALL wAlks do not prActice whAt they preAch (SURPRISE!). There is A Bible quote About something very similAr to this . . . hrrmm.


-FBB

reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli


So a whole city even the six month old infants were found to be without innocence? Are you actually paying attention to what you're writing?

Oh but the uh, the man who offers up his virgin daughters(if they are virgins they are likely aged under 10 for that time period). Offers them up to be brutally raped by an angry mob in place of male strangers he's never met before is the holy man.

But the CITY is the one without innocence. The whole place. Dogs, cats, women, babies. All evil. Burn them all. Sayeth thus.

LOL.

I'm done with this conversation. I don't know if you have actually read the bible.

I think this thread has really come down to an argument as follows. We all agree this is a horrible way to try to raise/train Children. We all agree that most Christians wouldn't think of treating their kids this way. The crux of the issue is whether Christianity and the Bible and the doctrines and teachings within are to blame for this behavior. Some say no way...that's like saying heavy metal music causes bad behavior in children and some say yes the bible directs people to behave this way. There is plenty of stuff in the bible that one could take literally that shouldn't be taken literally.

reply to post by OrphanApology


Not a single verse you posted has anything to do with this book or its' view of how to raise a child, or child abuse. So I will keep waiting while you find verses that support this book. I am sure you will simply keep posting verses taken out of context to support your view, despite the fact not a single verse (even taken out of context) has any bearing on the topic.

Grimpachi
reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli

 

Are you seriously trying to justify the book and the people who wrote and follow it to the point of killing their child even adopted ones because …err..well “at least it isn’t abortion”?

That’s exactly how your post reads to me maybe I am alone in that thought but it seems like you are making equivocations.

No, that's not his argument. Someone made a post that the Bible supports this form of child abuse. I asked them to show me the verses. Someone else posted a bunch of verses, taken out of context, that have nothing to do with child abuse anyways. He then criticised the source of the verses saying that the source advocates for POST birth abortion, and showing the hypocrisy of that particular source.

All in all, someone else went off topic in order to attack Christianity. He followed them off topic to criticise their source. His post has nothing to do with justifying child abuse because abortion is worse. Perhaps you should tell OrphanApology to stop going offtopic and posting verses that have NOTHING to do with child abuse.

Grimpachi
reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli

 

Then remain consistent. You remind me of groups that preach one thing then turn around and advocate another not realizing they are the same thing.

Opps..I may have hit a nerve with that but it remains true.

Quite hilarious that you bash him, and you don't say a word to the person who STARTED the off-topic comments. Unless your post is a thinly disguised Christian Bash thread, OrphanApology is the one who should be yelling at. I guess you don't care if someone goes off-topic as long as it supports your views.

reply to post by amazing


Then why can't the Christian haters in this thread point to ANY verses that support this book? They keep going off-topic, and the OP couldn't care less as long as it supports Christian hate it's fine. It's only when you attack the off-topic posts the OP gets mad. Hilarious.