US B52 aircraft challenge China air zone

Zaphod58
If you're going to "spoon feed the pleb masses" at least get your facts straight first. The US didn't "bestow" the islands upon Japan after WWII. Japan annexed them in the late 1800s

I didn't even mention the U.S. in this context.

The Treaty of Peace with Japan (commonly known as the Treaty of San Francisco, Peace Treaty of San Francisco, or San Francisco Peace Treaty), between Japan and part of the Allied Powers, was officially signed by 48 nations

-Wikipedia


China believe these islands are part of their 'empire' through virtue of the Qing Dynasty (1644-1912). Of course, this is an asinine claim given empires change. Britain 'owned' Hong Kong once, too, but you didn't see the poms trying to enforce no-fly / "defence" zones over HK prior to the hand over in '97.

The fact of the matter is, the Chinese bully their own people and want to bully those around them, too. At very least, they want to see how much bullying they can get away with before being scolded.

reply to post by iLemming


Then who exactly were you referring to as "The West", because the only Western nation that had anything to do with the islands post WWII was the US.

Wrabbit2000
China won't push this to war because China doesn't do stupid things for no gain, as a historic rule.

Really?

Zheng He and his immense treasure fleets on the cusp of colonising the world in the 1400's (à la the British and Spanish much later), only be flouted by the Taoist brainwashed Confucian eunuchs that gained power at the end of the third Ming emperor, Yongle's reign, allowing the Anglo-Saxon people to catch up and surpass the Chinese technologically (notably: turning gun powder into guns), beg — to — differ.

If that's not the epitome of 'stupidity for zero gain', the definition of the expression needs redressing.

Zaphod58
Then who exactly were you referring to as "The West", because the only Western nation that had anything to do with the islands post WWII was the US.

You seem to be implying that the U.S. had some mandate over post WWII geographic divvying. They didn't. If they did, German wouldn't have got split in two and we wouldn't have had the Cold War.

The term 'allies' implies a coöperative of groups or individuals (nations, in this case); and as the excerpt I provided states, it was the Allies who decided on who got what after Japan surrendered. It wasn't some unilateral U.S. decision. The very reason the U.S. double-nuked Japan (before the Russians could roll in from Manchuria), even though the nation was all but fire bombed to ash already, was in order to gain a better hand at the bargaining table once the time for reallocating land came. This, however, didn't give them outright control over every piece of property up for grabs. Russia had to be sated, as did many other nations. It was a communal effort.

Either way, this is an irrelevant point of contention because the Chinese couldn't care less about 'who' says 'what' about those islands — they think the area belongs to them and no amount of Western diplomacy, logic, reason or rationale will dissuade them from their bent. Hence the topic du jour: the "air defence zone".

reply to post by iLemming


Control of the Senkaku Islands wasn't turned over to the allies. Administration of the islands was turned over solely to the US, who held them until 1970 when they returned them to Japanese control.

The Japanese held them from 1895, and even China admits they ceded them to Japan after the first Sino-Japan war, although they claim they regained sovereignty after WWII, although they didn't say a word until after the resource report came out.

reply to post by iLemming


lets see what else was going on,,around that time shall we Mr. Peabody,,,

1402 Jul 20, In the Battle of Angora the Mongols, led by Tamerlane "the Terrible," defeated the Ottoman Turks and captured Sultan Bayezid I. The Turks eventually regained control of the city and it remained a part of the Ottoman Empire for the next five centuries.

this is cool,,,


c1400 In Wales Owain Glyndwr (Owen Glendower c1359-c1460) led the warriors of Gwynned in a bloody revolt against Henry IV. The event was marked by a comet.

the comet part,,,sorry i drift,,

c1400-1425 Yong Le, the 3rd Ming emperor, created a permanent imperial residence in Beijing. Work was done by some 200,000 laborers and in time became the 8,886-room complex called the "Forbidden City."

getting closer,,,

side note,,ahead

1449 The giant Scottish bombard known as Mons Meg was built. It was retired from active service in 1680, after splitting her barrel while firing a ceremonial shot. She can still be seen in Edinburgh castle.

also cool...

here we go,,

1449 Ashikaga Yoshimasa (14) inherited the office of Shogun, the chief military and civic leader of feudal Japanese society. His leadership focused on the arts and depleted the national treasury which led to social and political anarchy.
oppss

here,,1448 In China hyperinflation hit and paper money lost 97% of its value. China soon abandoned paper money.




so ya,, thats why.

reply to post by BobAthome


Putting a claim on the basis of 600-700 year old event which nobody can verify, is very dangerous.

China's intentions in this dispute do not look good.

Let us see how events unfold.

reply to post by iLemming

You seem to be implying that the U.S. had some mandate over post WWII geographic divvying. They didn't. If they did, German wouldn't have got split in two and we wouldn't have had the Cold War.

I honestly don't know what to say to that other than to suggest we read very physically different history books. Actually different. We had to have. Germany got split in two by the Soviets taking the other half in what came to be one of the most militarized and most tense lines of control on Earth for decades.

Of course the US had very strong influence over how things went after the war. Plans for how post war Europe and the Pacific would look had started in earnest clear back in 1944 by the more optimistic of the bunch. the 'Bunch' being overall Allied command, which included Russia at some level during the war itself.

At least that's how my history read. I'm about to go back into another course running roughly 1500 to present day this Spring though, so it'll be interesting to see how it's formally taught these days.

Back on topic has there been any new developments in this farce of a debacle? I only ask because this has the potential to create some serious problems for the region.

reply to post by TiM3LoRd


Japan and Korea are flying aircraft in to the zone basically telling china to kiss off.

www.washingtonpost.com...

The first P-8 Poseidon deployment from Jacksonville Florida is heading to the area soon. It was planned long ago, but you know that they're going to have something to do with this if the ADIZ isn't removed soon.

reply to post by Zaphod58


China will not remove ADIZ, but there will be no shooting match anytime soon.

China will fly its planes and USA/Japan/S-Korea will do the same.

This is the problem with today's world order - no problem gets resolved easily. Diplomacy has stopped working.

Japan is a basket case and the sooner the USA get the fark out of there the better.

Leave it to the Asians to sort them out amongst themselves.

This is irredentism.

Let Japan re armed and let them fight their own fight. They brought this upon themselves by annexing those islands when China was at her nadir and now China is strong enough to get them back, guess what, that's exactly what they are doing now. America has been protecting Japan for the past 60 years and it's time to say sayonara.

TiM3LoRd
Back on topic has there been any new developments in this farce of a debacle? I only ask because this has the potential to create some serious problems for the region.

Not yet. Give it time.

Here's a nice article on the Chinese's 'sidle' into the East China sea.

GargIndia
This is the problem with today's world order - no problem gets resolved easily. Diplomacy has stopped working.

There can be no 'diplomacy' when diplomatic communications are continually spilt over the Internet.

America Take Heed:



"RCMP arrested Huang, a Canadian citizen, on Saturday afternoon.It's not clear exactly what information Huang is alleged to have offered about the $34-billion National Shipbuilding Procurement Strategy, a program to provide new vessels for the Royal Canadian Navy and Canadian Coast Guard, as well as new ice-breakers and scientific research ships.“In these types of cases, sharing of information may give a foreign entity a tactical, military or competitive advantage by knowing the specifications of vessels responsible for defending Canadian waters and Canadian sovereignty,” RCMP Chief Superintendent Jennifer Strachan, the force's Ontario chief of criminal operations, said in a news release.The Globe and Mail reported Huang, 53, worked as an engineer at Lloyd's Register Canada Ltd., a subcontractor to Irving Shipbuilding Inc., which is building the combat vessels included in the program.


Read more at www.liveleak.com...

Especially this part,,

"“It’s important to understand there is more to a national security investigations than focusing solely on terrorism,” said RCMP Chief Supt. Larry Tremblay, director general of the force’s federal policing criminal operations in Ottawa.“It’s about protecting Canadian interests and taking the steps we need to take to protect our Canadian sovereignty.”

Oh Canada

now here's a hot tip about a Ford guy in Toronto,,,Bob ,,, never mind.

reply to post by iLemming


The problem is not Internet.

The problem is manipulation.

There are no set rules for all nations to follow. It is about Anglo-Saxon supremacy, not values.

We shall see how this develops. USA will have to stand by Japan. The day USA abandons Japan, East Asia will be a very bad place.

reply to post by Zaphod58


B - 52 have very long legs and carry a massive payload of cruise missiles both stealth and normal.

They also have an extremely capable electronic warfare suite that can handle most anything in the Chinese arsenal. With the addition of support aircraft and other assets the B - could lay waste to most of China's coastal defense forces with or without nuclear attacks.

Xeven
With the addition of support aircraft and other assets the B - could lay waste to most of China's coastal defense forces with or without nuclear attacks.

And that about it.

USA could not "win" a war with China anymore than China could "win" against the USA.

GargIndia
It is about Anglo-Saxon supremacy, not values.

Perhaps you'd prefer 'Sino supremacy', with zero values?

crazyewok
USA could not "win" a war with China anymore than China could "win" against the USA.

A conventional, Earth-based war ― no. It's becoming zero sum game where the technology is such that it will leave the respective sides razed.

But, the 'wars' of the future won't be here, but in space (like colonising the lunar surface and mining it for its resources, thereby effectively laying claim to entire satellite).

rt.com...
Jian-10 fighter jets of China Air Force shadowed US and Japanese planes in new air defense zone

Chinese fighter jets were scrambled and followed US and Japanese planes that had entered the newly-proclaimed Chinese air defense zone in the disputed area of the East China Sea, Xinhua reports.

Two US surveillance aircraft and 10 Japanese F-15 jets were ‘tailed’ by Chinese pilots on Friday.

China ordered an urgent dispatch of its Su-30 and J-10 fighter jets to an area in the East China Sea after the foreign aircraft “invaded” the air defense zone, they said.