Stoning adulterers may once again be reinstated in Afghanistan.

FlyersFan

nenothtu
I also firmly believe that it is not for me to try to knock someone else off of THEIR path - unless they are trying to dig a pit in mine, or otherwise trying to thwart me.

I usually go along with that.

There are hundreds of paths up the mountain he only person wasting time is the one who runs around the mountain telling everyone that his or her path is wrong. - Hindu Proverb.

However, I have no problem stating that murder by stoning is uncivilized.

It IS barbaric, I'll give you that, but I cannot go so far as to call it "uncivilized" unless and until it no longer exists in any civilization. Being a civilizational norm is what MAKES something "civilized". I think ANY murder is barbaric, but nearly all civilizations have one form or another of institutionalized killing that sometimes amounts to a murder. Methodology for murder does not make it "not-murder", but it IS civilized! I see no difference in lethally injecting an innocent person and bashing their head in with rocks - the end result is the same. Murder is murder. Just because the other guy's civilization does it differently does not make it "more murder" than the way your own civilization does murder.

Yes, we are discussing two different cultures, two different civilizations here, each doing the same damned thing and pointing the bone at The Other Guy as being somehow less "civilized" or "enlightened" as themselves, since their own murders MUST be "civilized"!

Civilization sucks.

nenothtu
Maybe you don't have one today, but you did yesterday, and you may again tomorrow. You have argued that you are a Christian, which means you have had a religion

Have a religion .... that mean being Catholic or Methodist or Islamic or whatever.
I have spiritual beliefs ... but not a 'religion'.
A religion implies dogmatic belief and belonging to an organized group.
At least it does to me. And that's not me.

No, he did not tell others not to. He told them to have at it when they could find a sinless man to toss the first stone. That is a far cry from saying "don't do it".

And NO ONE is without sin. He even taught that.
Therefore, he was telling people not to do it.

He taught to keep you own house clean before cleaning other folks' houses. We have no business imposing punishments on others for things which we ourselves are guilty of.

I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about ... this is a discussion thread and we are discussing stoning people to death in Afghanistan. If you want to run around telling people not to discuss issues, then you might as well shut down the boards. I haven't seen anyone talk about 'imposing punishments on others for things we are guilty of'. Who among those here who are against stoning people to death has ever done that? And what exactly is the 'punishment' that people here are trying to impose on others? WHAT are you talking about? Nevermind. I really don't care.

THAT was the teaching, not "don't do it". He seemed to be a fairly articulate man. Had he meant don't do it, he could have said so.

... and he did say so. No one is without sin. He said 'let him without sin cast the first stone'. Therefore, he told people not to do it.

I have never heard of a Muslim taking pilgrimage to Fatima to worship Mary, nor has any Muslim I know ever heard of it.

Muslims don't 'worship' Mary. They admire her as a wonderful example of how women are to behave and they admire the fact that she raised a 'prophet'. They visit her home in Turkey. They visit Fatima Portugal. And no ... I"m not getting her visit in Fatima confused with Fatima the person. I know the difference between the two. She's an important figure in their religion.

The Catholic fascination with injecting Mary into every little conversation never ceases to amuse me.

- I"m not Catholic. I was raised Catholic. But my beliefs now can't fit into any box.
- Your obsession with trying to take her out of the conversation is rather interesting.
- She's an important figure in the muslim religion, which we were discussing.

Then why do you worship her?

That's stupid. I don't.


Look ... if you think it's all so wonderful that people are stoning others to death ... picking up rocks and bashing each others brains in for adultery .... then goodie for you. I think it's disgusting and since this is a discussion board, I"m going to give my opinion. You don't like that I don't like it? I don't care. Whatever.

ETA ... this is all off topic and rather tiresome. I'm not the topic.
Until the actual topic comes back up .... I"m done.

reply to post by nenothtu

I think ANY murder is barbaric, but nearly all civilizations have one form or another of institutionalized killing that sometimes amounts to a murder. Methodology for murder does not make it "not-murder", but it IS civilized! I see no difference in lethally injecting an innocent person and bashing their head in with rocks - the end result is the same. Murder is murder. Just because the other guy's civilization does it differently does not make it "more murder" than the way your own civilization does murder.

Yes, we are discussing two different cultures, two different civilizations here, each doing the same damned thing and pointing the bone at The Other Guy as being somehow less "civilized" or "enlightened" as themselves, since their own murders MUST be "civilized"!

Civilization sucks.

Such an interesting thread - for more than one reason

I'm just re-posting this part because I don't think it can be said enough and was glad to hear you say it

The largeness of some hypocrisies is sometimes mind boggling

FlyersFan

Have a religion .... that mean being Catholic or Methodist or Islamic or whatever.

I have spiritual beliefs ... but not a 'religion'.

That is what a religion IS - a set of spiritual beliefs. Out of curiosity, how is it that you get to lump all of the varied Muslim sects under the blanket heading of Islamic and call it a religion, yet you think you can get away with calling Christianity a "not-religion", and only the specific subsets of it are religions?

A religion implies dogmatic belief and belonging to an organized group.
At least it does to me. And that's not me.

That is a cop out invented by people who want to trash someone else's religion while attempting to make their own immune, since it's "not a religion". It's not unique to you, so I'm not targeting you in the matter. I've seen lots of other folks do the same thing. Tacking on dogma just makes a religion dogmatic, it doesn't suddenly make a "not religion" into a "religion" simply by the addition. For instance, I myself am religious, but not dogmatic. I don't subscribe to any dogma - I have to question everything until I am satisfied. That doesn't make me any less "religious", nor does my steadfast refusal to join any organized group or follow any herd.

And NO ONE is without sin. He even taught that.
Therefore, he was telling people not to do it.

That is such a leap of "logic" that it is a non-sequitur. Do you seriously think Jesus was incapable of saying what he meant and meaning what he said?

I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about ... this is a discussion thread and we are discussing stoning people to death in Afghanistan. If you want to run around telling people not to discuss issues, then you might as well shut down the boards. I haven't seen anyone talk about 'imposing punishments on others for things we are guilty of'. Who among those here who are against stoning people to death has ever done that? And what exactly is the 'punishment' that people here are trying to impose on others? WHAT are you talking about? Nevermind. I really don't care.

I thought I was pretty clear, but I guess I wasn't. I didn't tell anyone at all not to discuss the issues. I gave my opinion on them. As you define it, the issue is stoning. That is a punishment imposed on people. No one has any business imposing punishment or even judgement unless their own house is clean, as Jesus clearly stated, and I thought, erroneously, that I had pretty clearly stated when I said "We have no business imposing punishments on others for things which we ourselves are guilty of". I don't know who among you currently passing judgement on muslims for passing their own judgements is guilty. that is between you and God.

I'm guessing here, and don't know for sure, that you think all your sins are "little sins" and other folks sins are "bigger sins", allowing you to pass judgement on them. As I recall, however, the Bible says sin is sin, without assigning degrees of it that are "OK" to engage in and still pass judgement.

Do I need to underscore the point with my finger in the dust?

"by the measure you judge others, you will also be judged".

... and he did say so. No one is without sin. He said 'let him without sin cast the first stone'. Therefore, he told people not to do it.

No, he told sinful people not to do it. He spoke very clearly. He nowhere said that it was wrong of itself, only that it was wrong for sinful people to do. He made his own decision in the matter, as he was entitled to do, being sinless. Now, we can debate whether he made that choice because he thought it was wrong, or whether he made it because God desires mercy, not sacrifice. I know what I believe, and I know why I believe it, since the rationale is recorded.

Muslims don't 'worship' Mary. They admire her as a wonderful example of how women are to behave and they admire the fact that she raised a 'prophet'. They visit her home in Turkey. They visit Fatima Portugal. And no ... I"m not getting her visit in Fatima confused with Fatima the person. I know the difference between the two. She's an important figure in their religion.

Can you name a Muslim - ANY Muslim - who has visited Fatima to venerate Mary? I'll wait...

- I"m not Catholic. I was raised Catholic. But my beliefs now can't fit into any box.

Given your obsession with Mary, they appear to still be Catholic-shaped. You might try a box of that shape.

- Your obsession with trying to take her out of the conversation is rather interesting.

I'm willing to discuss it. Chomping at the bit, in fact.

- She's an important figure in the muslim religion, which we were discussing.

Not as important as you are implying, nor for the reasons you give.

Look ... if you think it's all so wonderful that people are stoning others to death ... picking up rocks and bashing each others brains in for adultery .... then goodie for you.

Now that right there is a fine example of your favorite phrase "straw man!". A "straw man" is an argument where a false statement is constructed simply for the sake of knocking it down. If you can quote where i said "it's all so wonderful that people are stoning others to death ... picking up rocks and bashing each others brains in for adultery ....", then I will apologize, retract the straw man accusation, and then eat this computer.

ETA ... this is all off topic and rather tiresome. I'm not the topic.
Until the actual topic comes back up .... I"m done.

That's cool. see ya around, then. If you didn't want Jesus and the words you try to put into his mouth discussed in the matter, it might have been better for you not to have dragged him into it and attempted to put those words there.

Spiramirabilis

The largeness of some hypocrisies is sometimes mind boggling

What is truly amazing to me is that they think they can see the speck in their brother's eye around the beam in their own, and see it well enough to "fix" him by destroying his entire philosophy, his entire being, based upon what I would charitably call "peripheral issues", since they are culturally based rather than codified in his own holy book. All the while, they think they can see their OWN holy book around that beam well enough to be allowed to pick and choose what they want out of it, and simply chuck the rest into a dust bin.

It's kind of like bombing the crap out of a village, then saying "we had to destroy them to save them."

I think a better option is to show them what your own belief gives to you, then let them figure the rest out for themselves. That doesn't destroy anything or anyone - they can always choose NOT to adjust their philosophy, and stay with what they have. It's not my job to "fix" other people's cultures. I have a hard enough time just staying on top of my own. If they are happy with theirs, "barbaric" or not, "civilized" or not, it's not my place to tear it down for them. I don't believe I can even rationally pass judgement on theirs by my own standards, any more than they can legitimately pass judgement on mine by theirs.

If they don't like my culture, then that's fine. They can just stay the hell out of it, and the problem is solved. If they come to "fix" it, they can expect a tussle, and I would expect no less if I went to try and "fix" theirs.

reply to post by nenothtu


All of that, and then what's more - I'm not sure it's so much about the need to fix as it is about target practice

I've never understood this need for enemies - sometimes it seems we create a 'legitimate' reason to pummel somebody else - maybe it's an attempt to exorcise our own demons

In any case - as was mentioned earlier - we all have our own paths to pick

I'm just a godless voyeur in most of these threads - but I'm very fond of humanity. It makes me anxious when we quarrel

:-)

reply to post by nenothtu


I just wanted to say a few things.

You are always saying your not a Christian but I think you are. Not in the way other people are Christians definitely, but I believe that you are the type of Christian that Jesus would have wanted to call himself a follower of Him. You examine and follow carefully what you believe is the exact right and that is what any Christian, or Muslim, or anyone should do when it comes to their own religion.

While I don't always agree with your interpretations, its not my job to agree or disagree but to support you in your path, just as you support me in mine.

Thank you for explaining why a follower of Jesus might not believe in following the laws today. I refuse to argue your points after giving it consideration because debate is unnecessary, your words do shed light and that is what this thread was supposed to be about in my understanding.

I never understood why Christians did not follow the law. In all my discussions with Christians no one ever gave any logical reason. You explained well your side... so thank you.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

But then again, you don't think human governments violently bombing and invading other humans counts as being "oppressive".

Your psychic powers aren't working. Those are not my beliefs at all. I am a supporter of global brotherhood, love, compassion, sharing, and caring,.... regardless of religion, politics, nationality, ethnicity, race, lineage, wealth, class, or caste. I participate in many "Peace Rallies", as opposed to "Protests". I am vocal in injustice, tyranny, and oppression, regardless of the religion or nationality of the perpetrator.

Please stay on the topic, and please do not try to create a strawman for me.

Islam and Muslims don't even have a foundation of support to stand on regarding "Stoning Adulterers", because the Qur'an was corrupted in that regard.

nenothtu
That is a cop out invented by people who want to trash someone else's religion while attempting to make their own immune, since it's "not a religion".

You seriously just want to argue with someone .... amazing really. No, it's not a cop out. That's absurd. People can have different spiritual beliefs and not be part of any 'religion'. What I believe doesn't fit into any organized religion box. Your 'that's a cop out' is just bullcrap.

Do you seriously think Jesus was incapable of saying what he meant and meaning what he said?

... and he did say so. No one is without sin. He said 'let him without sin cast the first stone'. Therefore, he told people not to do it. You say that's me claiming Jesus is somehow 'incapable'?? strawman on your part. Its' very clear what Jesus said. The people there got the message ... DO NOT STONE PEOPLE TO DEATH. Obviously he was capable of saying exactly what he meant.

"by the measure you judge others, you will also be judged".

What's that got to do with saying that stoning people to death is wrong? I say the same thing about the death penalty here. But this thread isn't about the death penalty here. What's your point? Do you have one? I mean, other than just being a dick and arguing instead of having a normal conversation ...

Can you name a Muslim - ANY Muslim - who has visited Fatima to venerate Mary? I'll wait...

I showed how big numbers of muslims visit Marys home in Turkey. As for Fatima -
Library article

It is a fact that Moslems from various nations, especially from the Middle East, make so many pilgrimages to Our Lady of Fatima's Shrine in Portugal that Portuguese officials have expressed concern. The combination of an Islamic name and Islamic devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary is a great attraction to Moslems.

Asia News - Millions of Muslims Make Pilgrimage

Fatima, Harissa, Damascus, Samalut, Assiut, Zeitun and many other places where the Virgin appeared are the destination of incessant pilgrimages from Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, Iran. Pilgrims in search of physical but also spiritual healing; spontaneous and mystical prayer and not the schematic and formal verses of official Islam. The iconoclast Salafists destroy places of pilgrimage every year. But the devotion to Mary is growing, also fueled by the stories of the Koran. The spiritual dialogue between Christians and Muslims is much more promising than cultural, theological or political dialogue.

Each year millions of Muslims come on pilgrimage to the Catholic Marian shrines. Not only to the major shrines such as Fatima in Portugal or Harissa in Lebanon, but also to Egypt, Syria, Iran. Muslims - especially Muslim women - go to give thanks to the Madonna or great Christian saints, like St. Charbel or St. George.

For years now plane loads of Muslim women from Iran have been landing at Fatima, Portugal. They come to pray before Our Lady who appeared to three shepherd children. The reason is that the Madonna was named after the daughter of Muhammad and wife of Ali Ibn Abi Talib.

Islam and the Message of Fatima

So just what is the connection between Our Lady of Fatima and Islam? Francis Johnston, in his book, Fatima: The Great Sign, gives a cogent explanation: "The Muslims, who have a certain devotion to Our Lady and recognize her Virgin Birth and Immaculate Conception, were intrigued by the fact that Mary had appeared at Fatima, which was the name of Mohammed's favorite daughter and regarded by the prophet as the highest woman in Heaven after our Lady. In Zanzibar, the Muslim sultan placed a wreath of flowers at the [Fatima]statue's feet, while the Muslim chief of the Ismaeli tribe in Mozambique placed a golden necklace about the statue's neck saying: 'Thank you, Our Lady of Fatima for the work of love you are accomplishing in Africa' "

Given your obsession with Mary, they appear to still be Catholic-shaped.

I'm not 'obsessed' with Mary. But you sure seem obsessed with the fact that I mentioned her.
It's interesting, really. Did a Catholic drop kick you as a child or something?
Some of my beliefs are Catholic ... some protestant (denominational and nondenominational).. some hindu ... some secular humanist ... etc .. but all that is OFF TOPIC and IRRELEVANT.

Not as important as you are implying, nor for the reasons you give.

The information I gave shows very clearly that Mary is important in Islam. (obviously something that you won't be happy about) If she and her son, Jesus, didn't pick up rocks and bash that womans head in, then those who revere them should consider those peaceful actions for their own lives. It fits in with the theme of the thread just fine.

OpinionatedB
I never understood why Christians did not follow the law. In all my discussions with Christians no one ever gave any logical reason.

The 'logical reason' has been given to you many times. You just won't accept it.
The reason is because the so-called 'laws' ...
ARE NOT FROM GOD
They are made up by men who claim to be speaking for God but they obviously weren't.

reply to post by FlyersFan


I stand by exactly what I said.

At least one of us doesn't feel a need to keep repeating themselves once they've said it.

it just stands until refuted - which it has not been.

Repetition is not refutation.

Calling me a "dick" is not refutation, either...

... nor it is even original. Been done before, with the same effect - none.

I found NO names of any Muslims in any of your links to these alleged pilgrimages to Marian shrines by Muslims. even the one at Fatima, which I specifically asked about. Seems that if that many Muslims were doing so, someone would be able to name one of them, or some Muslim somewhere would have heard about it. Therefore, I stand by what I said there as well, and you have STILL not answered the question I posed. That seems to be becoming a habit. I do note, however, that these same people making those claims also claim Marian Apparitions as actual events. No agenda there. Maybe Muslims ARE becoming Catholic... but I don't think I'll place much stock in reports of it until I see some sort of unbiased confirmation.

Making the claim that "vast numbers of Muslims make pilgrimages to Marian shrines to worship foreign gods" is NOT the same as saying "Ahmed Abdel Gamal did it - just ask him". Having someone tell stories just to prop up or legitimize a Marian cult is not the same as confirming those stories. Last time I checked a map, Zanzibar was nowhere even near Fatima, Portugal, so that account is obviously false. How could this alleged sultan have placed these alleged flowers at the feet of a statue in Zanzibar when the Fatima cult shrine mentioned is in Portugal? There were 11 sultans of Zanzibar, most of which were British puppets. What does this one conveniently have no name to attempt pinning the tale down?

I have a pretty firm grasp on the role of Mary in Islam, and it is NOT what you claim it is... tall tales from Marian Cult proponents notwithstanding. I'll take the Muslim's own words in that regard as precedent.

Conversely, I'll take Catholics words about what their their own religion says as precedent over any Muslim assessments of what it says as well. It's only fair. In any merger of the two, however, there would obviously be reports of t from both sides, not just claims from one and flat denials from the other.

reply to post by FlyersFan


The answer "because the bible is a pack of lies" I could have gotten from any atheist. But your right, next time I can ask an atheist what they believe and just know factually it is the modern Christian perspective.

nenothtu
it just stands until refuted - which it has not been.

I showed clearly that Islam has great admiration for Mary.
You see just what you want to.

Calling me a "dick" is not refutation, either...

It was just an accurate observation. You seem to take great pride in being like that.
You said it yourself ... you aren't a nice poster. I'm agreeing with you. Be happy.

I found NO names of any Muslims

That's obtuse. Those articles discussed the high number of muslims that go to the shrines.
It's not going to collect names and addresses.

... Muslims ARE becoming Catholic...

Strawman. I never said that they were. I just said they were visiting because of their regard for Mary.

Making the claim that "vast numbers of Muslims make pilgrimages to Marian shrines to worship foreign gods"

Strawman. I never said that they were 'worshiping foreign gods'. You should try reading what is posted and be more accurate when discussing it. Your 'translations' continually miss.

Last time I checked a map, Zanzibar was nowhere even near Fatima, Portugal, so that account is obviously false. How could this alleged sultan have placed these alleged flowers at the feet of a statue in Zanzibar when the Fatima cult shrine mentioned is in Portugal?

Like I said, you only see what you want. There are statues of Our Lady of Fatima all over the planet. Those particular Muslims mentioned were placing flowers at the statue of Mary where they were. They don't have to be in Fatima itself to do so. So no ... the story is not 'obviously false'.

I have a pretty firm grasp on the role of Mary in Islam, and it is NOT what you claim it is...

Obviously you do not have a 'firm grasp' on it or you would have acknowledged the information provided, which was provided from multiple sources. What you DO have a firm grasp on is some kind of aversion to Mary being mentioned .... which me and my psychology degree, is finding rather interesting.

OpinionatedB
The answer "because the bible is a pack of lies" I could have gotten from any atheist. But your right, next time I can ask an atheist what they believe and just know factually it is the modern Christian perspective.

1 - Strawman.
2 - Inaccurate. I never said any such thing. You misquoted and exaggerated. Learn how to read and learn how to post. Stating that the O.T. has had parts proven false is NOT the same as saying 'the bible is a pack of lies'
3 - I can see that you are incapable of discussing facts without spewing.
No wonder you aren't capable of learning. Whatever. Think what you want.

reply to post by FlyersFan



reply to post by nenothtu



IF you do don't play nice...

I swear I will turn this car around and there will be NO ICE CREAM!!


Always wanted to say that

reply to post by Akragon

I"m playing nice. But he keeps getting on my side of the car. This thread is dead anyways. It's just his aversion to anything 'Mary', and 'that other poster' continually falsely calling me an atheist because I don't worship God like she does. This has become a pathetic waste of time.

reply to post by FlyersFan


www.godlessbastard.com...

www.flamewarrior.com...

commonsenseatheism.com...

All the above, is terribly familiar, but from a Christian. So... we are left with Christianity mirrors Atheism in many many many ways.

OpinionatedB
we are left with Christianity mirrors Atheism in many many many ways.

Atheists do not believe in a God. Christians worship a God as they know him.
To say they are the same is absurd. Your anti-Christian bias is showing.
You should be HAPPY that Christians worship God and try to make Him happy.
But instead ... you call them names because they see God differently.
That's pretty damn sad.

reply to post by OpinionatedB

we are left with Christianity mirrors Atheism in many many many ways.

Um, no.
And atheists are not "communists" either.

Islam fights for justice and and end to oppression, doesn't it?
So did Jesus. Jesus was a full-blown SOCIALIST.

If Christianity (esp. as the Pope is now framing it) were to actually follow Jesus's example,
and this country (the USA) was actually following his teachings, it would be a SOCIALIST country.

Which, in my opinion, is not a bad thing.

reply to post by wildtimes


Jesus was Jesus... the mighty bender and adapter.