Spartan education system (the agoge)

bigfatfurrytexan
reply to post by cachibatches

 

So a man who is unwilling to admit he gave his sons over to be diddled by the Spartan army has a story, huh?

Why in god's name would you think this? I have delineated the history for you, and the poster Yezdigerd went though the trouble of finding you the quotes.

Are you, too, perhaps projecting your own feelings onto the ancients?

cachibatches

bigfatfurrytexan
reply to post by cachibatches

 

So a man who is unwilling to admit he gave his sons over to be diddled by the Spartan army has a story, huh?

Why in god's name would you think this? I have delineated the history for you, and the poster Yezdigerd went though the trouble of finding you the quotes.

Are you, too, perhaps projecting your own feelings onto the ancients?

I don't find homosexuality to be an insult. But no.

I say this because what i have seen is counter-indicative of what you say.

bigfatfurrytexan

cachibatches

bigfatfurrytexan
reply to post by cachibatches

 

So a man who is unwilling to admit he gave his sons over to be diddled by the Spartan army has a story, huh?

Why in god's name would you think this? I have delineated the history for you, and the poster Yezdigerd went though the trouble of finding you the quotes.

Are you, too, perhaps projecting your own feelings onto the ancients?

I don't find homosexuality to be an insult.

But no.

I say this because what i have seen is counter-indicative of what you say.

What you have seen? You haven't seen anything. We've given you the quotes from those who did see it. You are only speaking about your own inner desires on the matter. You think that the words of Xenophon are some elaborate conspiracy because you WANT them to be.

Bellow is informations, how SPARTA dissapeared and even if you visit today, there is almost nothing left...

Treasures of ancient Greek art were destroyed and looted , as is known from Roman , Frankish crusaders , the Venetian general Morosini and the British ( Scottish actually) Elgin .

Equally great destruction brought by envy museums, to rush and loot, also destroy, so the competitors wont get anything.

Universities and kings of Europe , who came to Greece during the Ottoman rule , to loot coins , manuscripts , inscriptions and artwork.

All those exaggerates greed and devastation caused by the ancestral treasures of Greece Abba Michel Fourmont (1690/1746), sent by the king of France Louis IE ". Abba Fourmont surpassed Elgin regarding the brutal manner of destruction of monuments , which literally wiped out , and the incredible number of antiquities destroyed .

Fourmont, In his attempt to seem agreeable to the king and to secure exclusively for him only the right to study and research of inscriptions and monuments after recording their colleagues were , literally insane , fury. The Fourmont sought inscriptions in Athens, Salamis , Megara , and the Peloponnese , where he penetrated even in the wildest parts of Mani .


He confesses in manuscript , preserved along with the calendar , that drew over 1,500 inscriptions on the tour in 1729 in Greece . In a letter to Count Maurepas, o Fourmont brags that destroyed ( ! ) Inscriptions , not copied from a future looter!

fourmont writes about the disaster that did in Sparta and explain the rarity of antiques today in the famed city.
Here is some of his phrases in his calendar :
" For 30 days and now 30, 40 and 60 workers demolishing, destroy, eliminate the city of Sparta . My remaining four single towers to destroy ... Do you understand the joy I live today!! "

But Mantinea , the Stymfalia , Tegea and particularly the Nemea and Olympia deserve in-depth demolishing. ( ! ! ! ) I made many paths looking ancient cities in this country and I destroy some . Among Troezen , Hermione , the Tiryns (tyrins manuscript instead tiryns), half the citadel of Argos , the Fliasia , Feneo ...
Penetrated in Mani. For six weeks steeped in the total destruction of Sparta ! Demolishing the walls , temples , leaving no stone to stone. I will do make the location of the unknown future , so I can remake, I know . This will glorify my journey . Is not this something ? '. """

the above is small parts from a french commander that was send by a french King to loot and destroy and give him presents. During Greece was occupied by turks. Is the same commander who destroyed Parthenon (bombarded it), he was here supposed to help greeks, but instead, that is his journal.

This information is taken from the author notes in Helena P. Schrader's Book One of the Leonidas Trilogy: Leonidas of Sparta: A Boy of the Agoge.

"It is my considered opinion that there is absolutely no evidence of pedastry in the agoge- or in Spartan society generally in this period (5th century BC) Like many of the other offensive aspects of the agoge, I believe it is a later development. Xenophon, the only ancient historian with first hand experience of the agoge states explicitly "(Lykourgos) laid down that at Sparta, lovers should refrain from molesting boys just as much as parents avoid having intercourse with their children or brothers with their sisters." It is hard to find a more definitive statement than this, and from the most authorative of sources. ... Xenophon even goes on to add: " it does not surprise me, however, that some people do not believe this, since in many cities, the laws do not oppose lusting after boys." And this is the crux of the matter. All of our written sources on Sparta come from these other cities, where pedastry was rampant: in short, from men who could not imagine a world without it. But then, they could not imagine women who were educated, physically fit and economically powerful who were not also licentious and lewd."

"Modern readers know better, that pedastry is not inherant in society- particularly not in a society where women are well integrated. My thesis is supported by another ancient authority, Aristotle, who blamed all of Spartas woes on the fact that women were in control of things, a fact that he in turn attributed to the lack of homosexuality in Spartan society generally. Finally, I would like to call on the archaeological evidence. To date- in sharp contrast to other Greek cities- no spartan homoerotic artwork has been found...."

"There has also been endless scholarly debate about what clothign the boys of the agoge were allowed. Xenophon stressed only that in contrast to the spoiled boys of other cities (who had vast wardrobes of himations) the Spartan boys were given only one per year. At no time did he imply that they wore no undergarments, although this is the interpretation of many modern scholars."

Plutarch: ancient customs of the Spartans
-"Affectionate regard for boys of good character was permissible (May I please stress the importance of the word affectionate, it is not lustful, but affectionate) but embracing them was held to be disgraceful, on the ground that affection was for the body and not the mind. Any man against whom complaint was made of any discgraceful embracing was deprived of all civic rights for life." Such a harsh punishment is surely indicative of the attitude of the Spartans to pedastry. A general affection for the boys was allowed, but taking it further into a physically intimate relationship was not allowed.

Plutarch: Life of Lycurgus.
"When the boys reached this age, they were favoured with the society of lovers from among the reputable young men."
This does seem to support pedastry within the Agoge. However, Plutarch was a Grecian... (Alarm bells anyone?!) and in ancient Greek society, pedastry was accepted as a legitimate relationship.

I am still in school and as such I dont claim to be all knowledgeable, nor do I claim to be right. Due to the lack of primary written sources from Sparta, it is extremely difficult to accurately assess the operation of the agoge.