Much more artery-hardening TMAO produced in meateaters than veggies?

So I was reading about how its not L-carnitine that's not bad directly for artery/heart, but what its turned into (TMAO) when certain 'meat' bacteria are present.

Apparently, L-carnitine alone (like from a vegan/vegetarian supplement), and in a veg diet, will not yield much TMAO. However taking L-carnitine might produce even more TMAO than is being produced from the meat's L-carnitine itself.

Sorry if I'm not making correct sense out of these articles - please interepret their findings, thanks!

www.wired.co.uk...

fter l-carnitine breaks down into a gas, the gas is converted to TMAO in the liver and this is sent round the bloodstream. In vegans and vegetarians, however, less TMAO was produced after ingesting the supplements, suggesting there's something significantly different going on in the gut compared to red meat eaters'. Faecal samples revealed that difference -- meat eaters have more of the bacteria that transforms l-carnitine into TMAO.

www.sciencenews.org...

Drop that hamburger, put down the can of Monster Energy and back away from the body building pills.

A nutrient found in red meat and added to energy drinks and supplements may crank up people’s risk of heart disease, a new study suggests. Bacteria in the gut digest the nutrient, L-carnitine, and help turn it into an artery-hardening chemical — particularly in meat eaters, researchers report April 7 in Nature Medicine.

The intestinal microbes of vegetarians and vegans didn’t make much of the chemical, even when researchers fed them an 8-ounce sirloin steak.

“I always thought that what I ate mattered, but I never realized that my gut bacteria might matter more,” says biochemist Harry Ischiropoulos of the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia, who was not involved with the study.

reply to post by gardener


Good find. It would make sense that the bacteria in meateaters (corpsearians) would be vastly different than the bacteria in vegetarians, and that these varied types of bacteria would create different physical outcomes.

Thanks, I see so it is the Red meat's impact on the gut bacteria, that creates conditions for artery-hardening substances to form which then enter the bloodstream, arteries, heart, in this topic, that substance being the TMAO extensively produced in meat eaters with the L-carnitine found abundantly in red meat, pork, bacon and much less abundantly in poultry, fish, milk, eggs, and least in vegetation.

reply to post by gardener


I see this thread is sitting dead in the water. And the thing about that is that this thread and the information it contains could save lives. Literally one of those threads that can save lives.

Personal story. I used to eat meat like it was going out of style, and ate lots of it because I loved it so much. Then I ran into a guy and his wife who talked about vegetarianism, the effects on the body of meat eating, and the destruction of earth's ecology because of meat eating. I was hanging out with him for other reasons, nothing to do with dietary habits, and did so for five years. I'd hear him talk at least once a week about diet, and it's effects. For five years, and during that time not once did I consider giving up meat. It was just too good (or too addictive it turns out).

Then a few things fell into place, and one day, the same day, I gave up red meat, soda, started to exercise regularly, and discovered an author I loved (Robert Anton Wilson). It took me about nine more months to give up all meat. It was sad, as I thought that I wouldn't like food again, and I looooovvvvveeeee food. But my meat was gone, sigh, and then what? But I was prepared to make the tradeoff because all the stuff had finally sunk in. And you know what? Every meal since has been a feast. Fantastic foods, wonderful tastes. Turns out the taste buds heal after giving up meat, and soon I could really taste things like I hadn't since I was a child. And ah, the seasonings!

But yes, what I mean, bottom line, is the OP has put up a thread that could save lives. Nice work. If only it were so easy, and my five-year denial of facts literally staring me in the face say that people change when they decide to change, and not before. For me some of the changes had to be cold turkey (pun intended).

Thank you for this. I really hope others look into it.

Aleister
reply to post by gardener

 

I see this thread is sitting dead in the water. And the thing about that is that this thread and the information it contains could save lives. Literally one of those threads that can save lives.

edit on 26-11-2013 by Aleister because: (no reason given)

If one just one more life saved by the information and in bump for good measure.

Also,

Gut Bacteria Byproduct Predicts Heart Attack and Stroke

Research by a Cleavland clinic MD., showing as to gut bacteria byproducts to predict the risk heart attacks and strokes.

reply to post by dreamingawake

Very good video, thanks for sharing it here. A must see for anyone alive (stuff like this should be broadcast on national TV in prime time, imnho).

I gave up meat for 3 years and was more or less vegan for that time period.
My wife was the one that couldn't take - giving up meat.
So we eat buffalo and yak now and of course some bacon and sausage.
Have always eaten a couple of eggs more or less every morning.
I am thinking that it is more what is fed the beef than the actual beef.
BTW - I am 63 and do not have any ED or any of illnesses and do not have a doctor and neither my wife nor I will stoop low enough to take any form of AMA or go along w/ any manchurian doctor.
So that's my 2 cents.

Giving this a bump again, to keep it on my quick-see list, and in hopes that a couple or few other people will take a peek at the two important vids on this thread.

A newer thread has further information about the benefits of vegan/vegetarianism lifestyles, comparing how long people live, etc. A good read and might be called a companion thread (I linked this one to that as well, but may have to do it again)

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Thanks for finding this info. S&F. I will have to study up on this more. It is well known that the composition of the gut flora greatly influence everything from health to attitude. They also influence our hormone production and Pheromone production. We are supposed to have many kinds in our gut but the chemistry of the foods we eat can influence imbalances. These critters give off chemicals to kill off other species of microbes and also to influence us to eat food they like.

I would guess that the gas given off by the microbes might be a slightly sulfur based gas.

I discussed this in a thread I posted in April of this year: www.abovetopsecret.com...

Red meat produces less TMAO than do many vegetarian foods. Something's gotta give. Is it Red Meat? Or TMAO?

And, based on observational studies and many government recommendations, fish consumption is heart healthy, yet fish consumption leads to more TMAO production.

What's it gonna be?

2 drops of iodine in a glass of water daily will get rid of that in a week.
It liquefies plaque on contact.

reply to post by gardener


Processed meat made from dozens, if not hundreds of animals, can't be good for you. However, if you raised it or came by it through hunting, it isn't as bad. Maybe it's a old "farm tale", but I've heard plenty of stories of local wildlife feasting on organically grown crops compared to leaving the GMO stuff alone.

I love my steak, but rarely eat it anymore, unless I know where it came from.

I started eating meat again due to being pregnant and the overwhelming craving this elicited (and it repulsed me before this). I had not eaten meat for a solid 10 years before that but it's amazing how the need was so strong with this event. I truly don't like the stuff much but have chronically low iron so have never returned to boycotting it but this makes me rethink that (your post).

Not to get off topic but rather to fix the damage done by meats I wanted to ask about garlic. It can fix hardened arteries (make more pliable), and reduce cholesterol. It's also supposed to help rebalance the 80/20 balance of good/bad bacteria - kills the bad stuff but not the good stuff. Anyway - many studies show this stuff to be positive for health but I read an interesting thought about garlic and it supports some claims that it is toxic. In supporting that it is toxic it was said there's a reason it is repulsive if on ones skin or breath as it tells others your not healthy. Which is it - toxic or helpful to reversing the damage done by eating meat. I'm confussed yet do want to try to reverse any damage done.

It must also be said that stress raises cholesterol - so maybe the stress hormone in meats plays a part in this. Perhaps the organic is not so bad. I ate an organic turkey for thanksgiving and I'm pretty sure it will be illegal in a few years as it made us all feel drugged (relaxed and goofy due to triptopan I imagine). Non organic turkey hasn't had such a strong affect so maybe there is something to it being a stress free animal.

reply to post by Aleister


Omnivore

"if only one more life is saved"

jesus

Hillbilly123069
2 drops of iodine in a glass of water daily will get rid of that in a week.
It liquefies plaque on contact.

edit on 2-12-2013 by Hillbilly123069 because: (no reason given)

Can you give more information on this, and how accurate the statement is. Thanks. And how could two drops of liquid a day get rid of plaque in a week? That's only 14 drops, so it would have to, in a very diluted state, do the work of ten men. And by "liquefies plague on contact" do you mean a percentage of a drop of iodine will dissolve plaque as soon as it touches any portion of it? Enough questions, thanks for having a go at them.

Over the years I've read a lot of things that make me doubt we can go without eating meat or animal-products. I reember watching a video recently where it was found vegans/vegetarians were having disproportionate problems with heart attack and similar cardiovascular issues. He went over al ong list of potential reasons for why so many non-meat eating people were dying of things commonly associated with meat eaters. I can't remember em all, but one of them was to eat the salt with iodine added. Either way, the list was long and kind of ridiculous. If that's what we have to do to survive without meat then I have to think it's not natural.

Bottom line, vegans/vegetarians are not living longer than meat eaters. This is principally because surviving without meat is very difficult.

I tend to unfortunately agree with the "experts" whom claim we have been eating meat for probably more than a million years by cooking it over a fire.

My general advice to anybody is to eat as diverse as possible. I feel we know less about healthy diet than we think. It's a shotgun approach.

Please note I am not a hater of people who don't eat meat. I have seen those slaughterhouse videos where animals are butchered. It's subhuman. For that matter, I'm repulsed by the image of cutting the throat of a goat or chicken to bleed it so you can prepare it to be butchered. Perhaps this is what we've been doing for over a million years and is reasonable, but I am still nonetheless sickened to the depths of my being. If we can find a reasonable way to live without meat then I will rejoice. As for those who do not understand what I am writing because you feel it's normal or acceptable to kill an animal for food, I do not hate or condemn you.

EDIT: FOUND IT. Watch it and let me know what you think:

reply to post by jonnywhite


Surviving without meat is very difficult? Ah, no, it's not. It's very easy.