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A Question to the Scot's Here on ATS? ....

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posted on Nov, 25 2013 @ 03:24 PM
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TechniXcality
reply to post by alldaylong
 


are seriously debating if conquest was ever sought in Scotland by the British? Sure eventually the people succumbed and joined the union, so i suppose America never conquered Iraq? Apples and oranges but the occupation led to a mock government put in place.

wikipedia en.wikipedia.org...


Do you actually know why Scotland "Joined" the union?

As a country it was financially bankrupt. It's only salvation was to join the Union.

www.theguardian.com...




posted on Nov, 25 2013 @ 03:27 PM
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The Scots are not stupid. It will be a NO vote. When the White Paper comes out tomorrow, the first answer I will be looking for is will we or wont we be applying to join the European Union? as so far, they appear to be avoiding the question. What is the point in voting for independence and then joining the European Union? We would become no more than another glorified German state! Some independence!
Look at Cyprus, Greece,Portugal, Ireland, Spain, to name a few. Thanks, but no thanks Alex! At least if we stay in the Union, we may have the chance of a referendum to vote to get out of that money grabbing, opportunistic, excuse of an organization!

As far as Scotland going it alone? Not yet. Perhaps it would be better if we were to be given more power first? Raising our own taxes, responsibility for our own budget, see how we cope with those tasks instead of putting all of our eggs in one basket now? Look at the state of the global economy, political unrest. Absolutely anything can and probably will happen in the near future and where would we be then?


edit on 25-11-2013 by scotland48 because: Unfinished post



posted on Nov, 25 2013 @ 03:28 PM
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alldaylong

TechniXcality
reply to post by alldaylong
 


are seriously debating if conquest was ever sought in Scotland by the British? Sure eventually the people succumbed and joined the union, so i suppose America never conquered Iraq? Apples and oranges but the occupation led to a mock government put in place.

wikipedia en.wikipedia.org...


Do you actually know why Scotland "Joined" the union?

As a country it was financially bankrupt. It's only salvation was to join the Union.

www.theguardian.com...


yes i'm aware... Years of conquest and war inter turmoil tend to have those financial consequences at least for the underdog. Its only salvation ha, that's a good one



posted on Nov, 25 2013 @ 03:28 PM
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reply to post by Ph03n1x
 


You make some valid points - if I was a Scotsman I could see the benefits of forging a new and truly independent nation free from the control and corruption of existing systems.
But in reality what are the chances of that?
It's simply swapping one set of corrupt and amoral bastards for another.

And the point about the currency is bang on - and to be honest, it's not a question of an independent Scotland wanting to keep Sterling or not, it's a question of whether the remaining parts of the UK would want to allow Scotland to use it, and why would they risk devaluing Sterling after all the struggles we've been through to keep it and out of the Euro?
And heaven forbid what price the EU would extract from Scotland for 'allowing' it to use the Euro - and in bear in mind automatic entry into the EU is far from guaranteed.

So much for me keeping out of this thread.



posted on Nov, 25 2013 @ 03:30 PM
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TechniXcality

alldaylong

TechniXcality
reply to post by alldaylong
 


are seriously debating if conquest was ever sought in Scotland by the British? Sure eventually the people succumbed and joined the union, so i suppose America never conquered Iraq? Apples and oranges but the occupation led to a mock government put in place.

wikipedia en.wikipedia.org...


Do you actually know why Scotland "Joined" the union?

As a country it was financially bankrupt. It's only salvation was to join the Union.

www.theguardian.com...


yes i'm aware... Years of conquest and war inter turmoil tend to have those financial consequences at least for the underdog. Its only salvation ha, that's a good one


Never let the truth get in the way of a good story




posted on Nov, 25 2013 @ 03:31 PM
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reply to post by crazyewok
 




Just as 'Distance lends enchantment' So >>>

'Time colours and weaves a fairy tale'

I bet there's little 'truth' in all those heroic tales of past hero's that come out of

Hollywood! lol ...



posted on Nov, 25 2013 @ 03:33 PM
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reply to post by Freeborn
 




The Union was instigated at the behest of Scotland, or at least the ruling class of Scotland at the time.


And that pinpoints the problem. The machinations of the Scottish and English ruling families have always been self serving first. Give the people the chance to vote on there own independence.

It seems interesting to me that a lot of folks speaking out against the idea are English. Why is that if Scotland is so equal and all that?



And heaven forbid what price the EU would extract from Scotland for 'allowing' it to use the Euro - and in bear in mind automatic entry into the EU is far from guaranteed.


Well maybe they could just use the dollar as it's still a reserve currency (for now at least.)
edit on 942pm4040pm32013 by Bassago because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 25 2013 @ 03:35 PM
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reply to post by Bassago
 


But you seem to be under the mis-apprehension that Scotland and the Scots are somehow suppressed by those dastardly English - that my friend is complete and utter bollocks and is an insult to the whole Scottish nation.

The Scots have a damn sight more say and control over matters that directly affect them than I do.

The Scotish people are a fiercely proud people - and rightly so - do you honestly think they would have put up with over 300 years of the sort of subjugation you seem to believe they've endured?
They aren't an occupied nation they are a partner in a Union, a Union they are now getting the opportunity to divorce from if they so wish.
The picture you and other's seem to be painting is so wide of the mark.



posted on Nov, 25 2013 @ 03:36 PM
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The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

I can see this a little differently. Canada has had this issue for about 40 years now. Quebec. A little different as we evolved differently but Que. has had numerous chances to remove themselves from Confederation. French/English cultures have not historically been compatible. Probably a bigger division than this one. They have decided to stay part of the country. I'll be shocked if Scotland chooses to secede. There doesn't seem to be an upside other than political posturing and logical people can see around that and will.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.



posted on Nov, 25 2013 @ 03:39 PM
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Sons of Scotland, I am GreyGoo of ATS. And I see a whole army of my countrymen,
here in defiance of tyranny! You have come to fight as free men. And
free man you are! What will you do without freedom? Will you fight?"


"No! We will run - and live!"


"Aye!" "Fight and you may die. Run and you'll live at least awhile.
And dying in your bed many years from now,
would you be willing to trade all the days from this day to that for
one chance, just one chance, to come back here as young men and tell
our enemies that they may take our lives but they will never take
our

Freedommmmmmmm !!!!!!!!

Alba gu bràth !!!!!!!!



Vote independence



posted on Nov, 25 2013 @ 03:45 PM
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I was at a Scottish Highland Games festival in the Pacific Northwest this summer where the subject came up before the crowd of people in attendance. I think it is fair to say that there was overwhelming approval expressed by those present. This was probably in the neighborhood of a thousand people and there was no dissent expressed at all.

I was also in Scotland a few weeks ago where the subject was discussed by the Scotts themselves. Opinion polls show that the Scotts are currently NOT in favor of independence at all, by a wide margin. Of course, there's a long time to go before the vote and as the campaign continues opinion might change. I was also in Ireland where the campaign to abolish the senate (seanad) was in full swing. Shortly after I was there it went down to a resounding defeat.

Our conclusion here was that if you are not a citizen, but have Scottish ancestry with which you identify, you are all for independence and think it is a great idea. Of course, it will not affect you at all. But if you are an actual Scott living there today, you are much less inclined to vote for it because the stake you have in it is real, not imaginary based on where your ancestors originated.

The opinion polls corroborate this. That's where it stands today.

* My DNA proves I am overwhelmingly of Scotts/Irish descent, but I do not hold an opinion on the matter. It is up to the current Scottish citizens to decide.

edit on 11/25/2013 by schuyler because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 25 2013 @ 03:47 PM
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As a Scotsman I can see no logical reason to oppose it. Right now we have uncertainty with English rule, much better uncertainty and Scottish rule. The future generations, my grandkids deserve to have a say in "Their" own country and its for that that I am campaigning with all my heart for a yes vote.

Something that may not be so obvious to our foreign brothers and sisters who might be reading this thread is the fact that the Orange Order will hold a trump card in the final referendum. With thousands of members here in Scotland and with the fact they have been ordered by their hierarchy to vote no, this adds another side to the independence argument.

It would be a sad day indeed if the future of Scotland was decided 400 years ago through religion and in-bred hatred but that Im afraid is one of the options that could happen.

What other country in the world wants to be ruled from another country....I hope and prey that when the time comes the yes vote will win.

Respects
edit on 25-11-2013 by captiva because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 25 2013 @ 03:48 PM
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reply to post by GreyGoo
 


When i see someone use an extract from "Braveheart" i liken it to someone using an extract from " Winne The Poo". Both total fiction.







posted on Nov, 25 2013 @ 03:50 PM
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reply to post by Bassago
 




And that pinpoints the problem. The machinations of the Scottish and English ruling families have always been self serving first.


I couldn't agree with you more - but my own personal opinion is that we, as in the people of the UK, have a better chance of bringing about positive change within all the regions by standing united together and demanding and forcing through radical reform that changes this Union into something we can all be proud of - naïve and idealistic I know.



Give the people the chance to vote on there own independence.


They've got the chance.
As I said previously, there has never been a level of support that warranted it before.
Even many pro-union supporters agree with the referendum because it has given Scotland the opportunity to enter into a very open and public debate and to express their Right To Self-Determination.
Regardless of what you or I may feel it's their opinion that matters and which will be counted - and they will vote as they see fit and the result will be respected by all.



It seems interesting to me that a lot of folks speaking out against the idea are English. Why is that if Scotland is so equal and all that?


Because we have an opinion too - nothing more, nothing less.

There is a growing groundswell of opinion in England that it should be a given a vote on whether we want to remain in The Union with Scotland regardless of how Scotland votes - but of course that won't be viewed as England wanting to achieve some romantic version of 'FREEDOM' as an independent country in it's own right or the English wanting to express their Right To Self-Determination will it?
I wonder why?



posted on Nov, 25 2013 @ 03:51 PM
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alldaylong

TechniXcality

alldaylong

TechniXcality
reply to post by alldaylong
 


are seriously debating if conquest was ever sought in Scotland by the British? Sure eventually the people succumbed and joined the union, so i suppose America never conquered Iraq? Apples and oranges but the occupation led to a mock government put in place.

wikipedia en.wikipedia.org...


Do you actually know why Scotland "Joined" the union?

As a country it was financially bankrupt. It's only salvation was to join the Union.

www.theguardian.com...


yes i'm aware... Years of conquest and war inter turmoil tend to have those financial consequences at least for the underdog. Its only salvation ha, that's a good one


Never let the truth get in the way of a good story

That's a double edge sword you just wrote. Its an easy and quiet convenient perspective to give hats off and pats on the back to the victories and spoils of your descendants. Its a much harder and damn right proud to acknowledge your failures and to become independent, which i'm sure Scotland would fare just well. Remember when a story is told, you must consider the person telling that story.



posted on Nov, 25 2013 @ 03:54 PM
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alldaylong
reply to post by GreyGoo
 


When i see someone use an extract from "Braveheart" i liken it to someone using an extract from " Winne The Poo". Both total fiction.






I see your sense of humor died with your youth.



posted on Nov, 25 2013 @ 03:54 PM
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captiva
As a Scotsman I can see no logical reason to oppose it. Right now we have uncertainty with English rule, much better uncertainty and Scottish rule. The future generations, my grandkids deserve to have a say in "Their" own country and its for that that I am campaigning with all my heart for a yes vote.

Something that may not be so obvious to our foreign brothers and sisters who might be reading this thread is the fact that the Orange Order will hold a trump card in the final referendum. With thousands of members here in Scotland and with the fact they have been ordered by their hierarchy to vote no, this adds another side to the independence argument.

It would be a sad day indeed if the future of Scotland was decided 400 years ago through religion and in-bred hatred but that Im afraid is one of the options that could happen.

What other country in the world wants to be ruled from another country....I hope and prey that when the time comes the yes vote will win.

Respects
edit on 25-11-2013 by captiva because: (no reason given)


You leave the union your only chance for survival will be to join the Euro.....

You will then be a slave to Germany instead. You replace rule 400 miles away in london to rule 1000 miles away in Berlin. Eitherway Scotland is not strong enough economical to survive without either the UK or the EU ? To go alone would mean destruction.



posted on Nov, 25 2013 @ 03:55 PM
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reply to post by Freeborn
 




The Scotish people are a fiercely proud people - and rightly so - do you honestly think they would have put up with over 300 years of the sort of subjugation you seem to believe they've endured?


Maybe after they saw what the US, India and a few other places had to go through to get away from England they didn't feel like it was possible. That's just a guess though.

As far as their independence all I'm saying is the people should get to vote on it whenever they want. I hope they chose the path to independence, lord knows it's been a long time since they were. Freedom and total self determination is always the best ultimate choice IMO.



posted on Nov, 25 2013 @ 03:57 PM
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TechniXcality

alldaylong

TechniXcality

alldaylong

TechniXcality
reply to post by alldaylong
 


are seriously debating if conquest was ever sought in Scotland by the British? Sure eventually the people succumbed and joined the union, so i suppose America never conquered Iraq? Apples and oranges but the occupation led to a mock government put in place.

wikipedia en.wikipedia.org...


Do you actually know why Scotland "Joined" the union?

As a country it was financially bankrupt. It's only salvation was to join the Union.

www.theguardian.com...


yes i'm aware... Years of conquest and war inter turmoil tend to have those financial consequences at least for the underdog. Its only salvation ha, that's a good one


Never let the truth get in the way of a good story

That's a double edge sword you just wrote. Its an easy and quiet convenient perspective to give hats off and pats on the back to the victories and spoils of your descendants. Its a much harder and damn right proud to acknowledge your failures and to become independent, which i'm sure Scotland would fare just well. Remember when a story is told, you must consider the person telling that story.



Can you give an answer to this question.

Would you support an Independent Native American Country within the US?

Or more importantly why are in happy living on occupied land that was taken by either force or corruption from the Native Americans?



posted on Nov, 25 2013 @ 04:02 PM
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Bassago
reply to post by Freeborn
 




The Scotish people are a fiercely proud people - and rightly so - do you honestly think they would have put up with over 300 years of the sort of subjugation you seem to believe they've endured?


Maybe after they saw what the US, India and a few other places had to go through to get away from England they didn't feel like it was possible. That's just a guess though.

As far as their independence all I'm saying is the people should get to vote on it whenever they want. I hope they chose the path to independence, lord knows it's been a long time since they were. Freedom and total self determination is always the best ultimate choice IMO.


Post such as this always make me smile.

Living on land taken from the Native American Indians, your comment is nothing less than hypocrisy.



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