The tree of what knowledge?

DISRAELI
reply to post by smithjustinb

 

But God himself sometimes says "this is bad" about the way some aspect of the creation has developed.
As, for example, Genesis ch6 v12; "And God saw the earth and behold it was very corrupt".
When God himself, in judgement, says that something is bad, our responsibility is to agree with him.

Notice he did say what he created on the second day was good. Gen 1:6 ¶ And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

akushla99
What if the tree was an actual tree with fruit for denizens within the G of E...but, was reserved for beings of higher stature than A & E...and the eating of the fruit altered thier DNA to not be able to have the long life they would have had, because of degenerative processes brought about by the eating of a fruit that was not for them...the knowledge being that, degenerative processes would eventually allow them to die a fully human death. Clearly, after the eating, they were ejected from the garden...perhaps because none of the fruit was then edible for thier sustenance...and thier original purpose within the garden was compromised.

Å99

Shorter and shorter life spans was surely evident. But if you over lap the life spans of those recorded before the flood. There could be a chance Adam bounced baby Noah on his knee.

On7a7higher7plane
I have been studying the Garden of Eden scenario for a while and from what I can figure out, the actual fruit from the tree was "free will".

I think it's safe to say that Adam and Eve had free will before they ate of the fruit just as Lucifer had free will. I think a better term to describe the phenomenon was they gained the ability to think independently. Before hand they were completely dependent on God and their environment, Adam and Eve were all do or do not before they were beguiled. In other words their egos became independent of God and his perfect creation (creatures and environment) and were thus they were not fit to exist in Eden.

And now to quote you:
"Eating the fruit did not do anything but fill their stomachs. It was the act of disobedience of Adam that brought about both the knowledge of good and evil and Death. While Eve ate being deceived Adam did so with a free will.

There was no mystical power or knowledge in the fruit or the tree. The tree was the object of Adams instruction not to eat of. When he hate his heart understood he disobeyed and that was evil and that the good was to obey. The result of his disobedience was knowledge of right (good) and wrong (evil) through the act of disobedience. From that day forward he would have a free will to choose right or wrong, good and evil. The promise of death was given because he disobeyed and that disobedience was called sin and the result of sin was death and death spread to all men because all have sinned (Rom 5:12).

very simple if you just take the word of God literally and believe what you read without admixture of interpretation. The AV Bible is already interpretated so no need to interpret we just need to Read, study, believe and apply it to our lives.""

Although unorthodox interpretations of what is considered a holy book my be dangerous I keep an open mind and recognize their is much more going on behind the story than the words detail. I may not have faith in my imaginings or even my own understanding as I reserve my faith for God and only God but I maintain a bit of conviction about my inspirations.

I think there is something very tangible and real about the fruit, I think it was literally a fruit and the literal act of eating it and metabolizing it would bring dire consequences on both a physical level (for Adam and Eve) and psychological level. So I disagree that there was no mystical power in the fruit, depending on your definition of mystical. God didn't put it there because there had to be something they could do to disobey or something like that. He created it and it was part of what made his creation perfect, it had properties that would have a profound effect on Adam and Eve if metabolized, this is why he instructed them not to eat of it. I don't think the consequences of them eating of the fruit were as much of God punishing Adam, Eve and the serpent for their disobedience as much as a predetermined cause and effect relationship of what would happen had they eaten of the fruit.

edit on 8-12-2013 by On7a7higher7plane because: (no reason given)

edit on 8-12-2013 by On7a7higher7plane because: (no reason given)

Chapter 3 is on the Eighth day. they were created on the sixth, rested on the seventh, and fell on the eighth, kicked out on the morning of the ninth. they were not instructed to eat of the tree of the Knowledge of good and evil to protect their metabolism God made them physical creatures that needed to eat just like all others.

The earth did not partake of the fruit only the first couple but yet their decision brought an effect on the planet and the animals as well. The tree was put there to test Adam and that testing is no longer needed and there is no tree existing in heaven or earth that is currently called by that name.

did the tree actually hold knowledge of Good and Evil? Not in and of itself but it did hold the revelation of doing good or evil and when man chose to disobey his eyes were open to the Knowledge that was already within him as an "independent" being separate from God, no longer bound by the interdependence of God but free to be his own god and make his own choices.

There is a tree called the tree of life that still in existence. Symbolized by the cross when Peter called it a tree (1Peter 2:24).

Dose this tree really hold power of life?

Only that which God has given it, but incarnate beings need what is known as "Thought Reinforcement" The leaves are for healing of the nations and there is twelve manner of fruit.

Does God need living water or a tree of life to give life?

No he uses these things to placate the need of the heart of man. God can give life quicker than a twinkling of an eye. 1Cor 15:51 ¶ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

You made an illusion to not believe that there is a Bible in English which was complete and interpreted for us today, of which I said was the AV. However God's word(the Holy scriptures) and his promise in that word was to preserve his words to all generations (Psalm 12:6,7). So there is either an English Bible available today that contains all the words of God, Preserved for us today in our language or there is not. Then man in his independent mind must decide which words are of God and which are not. If you believe the later, God has not kept his word, thereby is not a God that should be followed if he can't keep his promises.

reply to post by ChesterJohn

Yes, indeed.
Good as created, but then sometimes developing into something which is not good. In God's judgement.

smithjustinb
reply to post by DISRAELI

 

But that doesn't undo what was done. That's only saying we don't have to change the thing about us that originally condemned us, instead, we can take door number two, live the way we always lived, and by a completely unrelated process we can find redemption.

I can't deduct how what you're saying has any relationship with our original predicament.

Maybe this will help.

the first Adam fell and had his relationship with God severed by partaking of death from off a tree Gen 3 and he passed that predicament onto all men who came forth from him (all men) Romans 5:12. The Second Adam Jesus Christ came and partook of death on a tree (1 Cor 15:21, 22; 1 Peter 2:24) and fixed the relationship with God and man by reconciling man to God with his death on the tree Romans 5:10.

Then when Christ returns and the Kingdom promise to Israel had run it 1,000 year course, the judgement of ALL men not under the cross shall take place, hell, death are cast into the lake of fire, the old earth and old heaven shall be destroyed, and a new earth and new heaven are created and Christ Kingdom and the original purpose of the earth (Prov 8:22-24) goes into eternity Rev 20:11- 21:5.

DISRAELI
reply to post by ChesterJohn

 

Yes, indeed.
Good as created, but then sometimes developing into something which is not good. In God's judgement.

Are you implying God's Judgement or understanding is wrong or in error?

Is your judgement of something that is different from God's better than his?

To leave "In God's Judgment" floating as you did is to imply that something developing into something which is not good, may in fact be good in another's Judgment.

So is mans judgement of something better than Gods'?

That is exactly what the serpent did when he misled Eve he gave his judgement on the situation and said it was good and not evil and that they would not die if they ate.

DISRAELI
reply to post by ChesterJohn

 

Yes, indeed.
Good as created, but then sometimes developing into something which is not good. In God's judgement.

Anything that will separate God from Man is not good Gen 1:6-8. But in the over all scope of things it is good Gen 1:31 for God foreknew man would disobey and even before man was created he already made a plan Heb 4:3; 1Peter 19, 20; Rev 13:8.

ChesterJohn
Are you implying God's Judgement or understanding is wrong or in error?
Is your judgement of something that is different from God's better than his?

Not at all. I meant the exact opposite.
I meant that God's judgement is decisive.The fact that something is wrong in God's judgement is enough to settle the question.

reply to post by ChesterJohn


I'm under the impression that the symbolism in the bible was rooted to physical manifestation. Also, I am not convinced the tree was put in the garden to tempt Adam and Eve. I am also skeptical that Adam and Eve had to eat at all in order to sustain themselves. There is a possibility that scripture implied that the first thing Adam and Eve ate was the fruit of the tree of knowledge.

I don't really see the point of your post. Sorry if I missed it. I'm afraid that I have.

On7a7higher7plane
I am also skeptical that Adam and Eve had to eat at all in order to sustain themselves.

They did eat. Food was supplied;
"Behold, I have given you every plant bearing seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit; you shall have them for food"- Genesis ch1 v29

reply to post by DISRAELI


Thank you ! Your post made me understand some subtle differences I didn't see before.

One question. You say that with conscience, we began to experience death.

How would you explain the animals that are observed, showing behavior which can only mean that they experience death as well. Like elephants, Killer whales or chimps for example.

Although the elephants abilities to experience things like we do, comes with other similarities in how we develop into an adult too.

If conscience means that experiencing death is a result of our independence.
A good memory and ability to make a conscience choice to help out other members of the group, that are hurt or handicapped helping it survive where any other animal wouldn't survive , as it won't get help.
They also mourn their dead, or retaliate years after they have been hurt or abused and release their anger and grieve by sneaking into villages and pull men out of their beds, killing them in the streets.

What is it that makes us human and why do a number of reasons you give, make the Elephant an equal and blow up our own perspective about us at the same time.

Sorry about this, but it just doesn't compute for me...

reply to post by Sinter Klaas

My suggestions were tentative, and I don't have a good answer for you yet.
Except that the story is more interested in the contrast between what humans are and what they were before, and not so much concerned with the contrast between us and other animals.
So there would have been a stage when humans were less conscious of death than they are now, and this is very approximately related to the growth of independence.

reply to post by DISRAELI


Can I offer a better thing...

Consciousness instead of instinct. It made us decide to follow our own judgment, without a clue about the consequences of this choice . We got our first problem when we learned about the consequence of our action after we consumed the fruit.

We lost our instincts and find ourselves living in a world where we were in control.
So we lost our link with nature when our instinct gave way to conscious and we lost our link to God when we learned that our own judgment is no longer a gift, but a flawed tool, unable to use it for making the right choices like God would. Our judgment is based on experience and we are lacking a lot of that to be able to choose wise.

We got our place with God and our conscious mind replaced our instincts.
We got thrown in the deep when we started acting like God and lost our way from him because we are far from being able to understand Gods ways without understanding what was right ? We can only learn by doing wrong and experience first hand why we screwed up.

Unfortunately we aren't learning to fast and Gods ways remain unimaginable. God provides a life line and we only have to be able to find our way to it, and let it guide us through life to learn and return to God.

Our next step would be to find back our natural roots and the advantages that are a part of being part of nature. We wouldn't have to search for what is right, when nature already knows what is needed or not, Without the need to understand to be part of nature, we will no longer be distracted by our place on Earth and we can develop our consciences to a higher level, with the benefits of being connected with the rest of the natural world.

The insight we can get from our combined intelligence and the natural connection making us as one.

That would get close to be able to trust our better judgment, as we would get a lot better in knowing right from wrong.

reply to post by Sinter Klaas

I think that's another way- possibly even a better way- of saying what I was saying.
To quote from my second, supplementary post on this thread;

The difference between “knowing” and “not knowing” good and evil could be identified with the difference between acting upon conscious will and acting upon instinct.

Except that for me the "next step" was finding a new way (the way which God is trying to offer) of harmonising ourselves with God.

Or should the development of our conscious will be seen as a stage in our progress towards a future state in which our conscious decision-making has been re-aligned with God’s will? (Another version of the FELIX CULPA idea).

reply to post by DISRAELI


I get your point.

But if we would realign with Gods will. What would that mean for us ? That we will always be right and no longer be an individual man, but one of many with the same mindsets unable to disagree with someone as you can't grow or better yourself when you no longer screw up when you made a mistake.

Or would we let go of the need to judge and trust God's judgment without a doubt.

Both endings would be a boring one imo.

reply to post by Sinter Klaas

"Trusting God's judgement" is probably the best answer, because the Bible sees "trust" as the key to the relationship.
The "new Jerusalem" of the last two chapters of Revelation is an attempt to describe the state.
I agree that the human mind does have great difficulty in seeing the state of ceaselessly living in the presence of God as anything but boring (the last portions of Dante's Paradiso are not much better, with everybody sitting in a grand auditorium).
But perhaps this is because it's beyond the capacity of our imaginations.

reply to post by DISRAELI


When all of the natural world is yours to create with the power of a conscience mind and the knowledge of all man kind at your disposal...

You will have the wisdom to create new things with all possible ways to make it succeed.
I think that when you are one with nature by heart and existence and aware of your own creativity, that it will be great to sit down with God to create new life and be an architect of life.

You don't need to get bored when nothing can beat what you are already doing.
That would even make sense. Not that I want to make Gods out of man, but God isn't working alone either, according to some biblical texts and what's the use of creating a being with the potential to become God like and the starter kit installed that makes everything possible.
The only thing left is learning how to unwrap your possibilities, and experience as much as you need to learn and understand what's right and why.

The first time I ever imagined heaven to be more then a place where boring people end up...

reply to post by Sinter Klaas


Everything that exists is a creation of God. When Hitler killed millions of Jews, that was God's creation. There is only one creator. There is only one origin of events.

It doesn't matter what you do. You can't not do God's will. You can believe you are separate, and thus suffer, but that is still God's will.

We're not supposed to be a hive mind. We're supposed to be how we are. We're supposed to have egos. We're supposed to be individuals. It's all a stage.

reply to post by smithjustinb


I disagree.

smithjustinb
reply to post by Sinter Klaas

 

Everything that exists is a creation of God. When Hitler killed millions of Jews, that was God's creation. There is only one creator. There is only one origin of events.

It doesn't matter what you do. You can't not do God's will. You can believe you are separate, and thus suffer, but that is still God's will.

We're not supposed to be a hive mind. We're supposed to be how we are. We're supposed to have egos. We're supposed to be individuals. It's all a stage.

You are terribly misguided.

The first thing you need to do is embrace vegetarianism and shun alcohol and drugs completely. You need detox therapy as well.

You have lost your capacity to reason and understand.

Your idea of God will take you straight to hell.