Questions about the story of Adam and Eve. (let's assume it's true ..)

1) How is it possible for death not to exist? If Adam and Eve didn't eat the fruit and death didn't exist how can all those humans be on the planet? There Is already overpopulation imagine if no human ever died since the beginning of time.

2) How can Adam and Eve understand God if God is 100% goodness but they have no concept of good and evil until after they've eaten the fruit?

3) If Satan only lies and is complete darkness, how did he tell Adam and Eve the truth about their eyes being opened?

3) How did Adam and Eve have free-will to be evil (disobey) If they didn't even understand the concept?

reply to post by arpgme


How about this...

If the fruit represents the knowledge of good and evil(wisdom)...how did Adam and Eve ever eat the fruit to begin with?

Wouldn't they have already had to have had the knowledge of good and evil(good choices, bad choices) to eat the fruit in the first place?

LOL.

The bible will give you headaches if you try and read it literally.

arpgme
1) How is it possible for death not to exist? If Adam and Eve didn't eat the fruit and death didn't exist how can all those humans be on the planet? There Is already overpopulation imagine if no human ever died since the beginning of time.

2) How can Adam and Eve understand God if God is 100% goodness but they have no concept of good and evil until after they've eaten the fruit?

3) If Satan only lies and is complete darkness, how did he tell Adam and Eve the truth about their eyes being opened?

3) How did Adam and Eve have free-will to be evil (disobey) If they didn't even understand the concept?

These are legitimate questions.

1. Adam and Eve, humans were created with freewill. Is that magical garden fruit and talking serpents happen that way I do not know. The message is what is important, God and man coexisted and man was immortal in the precense of God and wanted for nothing. Being separated from God is the cursed path we have chosen.

2-3. This is a tricky question and I'm not sure I'm knowledgeable enough to answer it. Did Adam and Eve really have no concept of Good and Evil I'm not so sure, because they knew what death meant. They understood the expectations of their creator, and the consequences. They obviously feared death, when that fear was removed by deception they chose to directly disobey God of their own freewill.

Good questions. In order:

arpgme
1) How is it possible for death not to exist? If Adam and Eve didn't eat the fruit and death didn't exist how can all those humans be on the planet? There Is already overpopulation imagine if no human ever died since the beginning of time.

This is one that we can't know the answer to - because we don't know how population and/or population growth would have occurred without sin being a factor. It's worth bearing in mind, though, that sin didn't just affect mankind, it affected EVERYTHING. "Cursed is the ground because of you", and so on. The Bible paints the picture that in the new heavens and the new earth, food will neither waste nor spoil - so that would mean much greater potential for sustainability of life. Couple that with the fact that there were no oceans before the flood, and you also have a lot more room for cities etc.

2) How can Adam and Eve understand God if God is 100% goodness but they have no concept of good and evil until after they've eaten the fruit?

...it's not that Adam and Eve didn't understand goodness - it's that they didn't know the difference between good and evil; that is, that they were wholly innocent.

3) If Satan only lies and is complete darkness, how did he tell Adam and Eve the truth about their eyes being opened?

The Bible never says that Satan only lies, nor does it say that he is complete darkness. Rather, it says that he was "the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty" (Ezekiel 28:12), and that he now "masquerades as an angel of light" (2 Corinthians 11:14).

God created Lucifer as something beautiful - "perfect in [his] ways", Ezekiel says. Don't make the mistake of buying into the world's ridiculous mental image of Satan, an evil demon with a pitchfork. If Satan looked like that, where would the allure be? No... Satan is beautiful - more so than most of the angels. ...and while he may be The Accuser, and may be wholly corrupt, he is not without charm.

3) How did Adam and Eve have free-will to be evil (disobey) If they didn't even understand the concept?

Do you need to understand the concept in order to have that freedom? I don't think so. Regardless, Scripture doesn't suggest that Adam and Eve didn't understand the concept of free will. What it DOES suggest is that they had no part in evil. They didn't understand it because it was wholly alien to them... and it was not in their nature. They did, however, know that God had given them a command, and one that they were expected to follow. Genesis 3 establishes this fairly clearly. Eve knew what God had told her, and knew what she was to do. She simply chose not to. Likewise Adam, whom God had appointed as the head of His creation on earth, chose to eat the fruit when presented with it, despite having full knowledge of both the command from God (Genesis 3:6-7) and of the consequence (3:3).

reply to post by arpgme


If you take the Adam & Eve story truthfully then... you have to realize God had them as slaves and Satan saved them, gave them free will. God got pissed and cursed the rest of Adam's children. Sounds like something our government would do if they was a God.

arpgme
1) How is it possible for death not to exist? If Adam and Eve didn't eat the fruit and death didn't exist how can all those humans be on the planet? There Is already overpopulation imagine if no human ever died since the beginning of time.

Death did exist. Nothing says otherwise. The church assumes that they were immortal because the alternative means that YHWH lied to them.

arpgme
2) How can Adam and Eve understand God if God is 100% goodness but they have no concept of good and evil until after they've eaten the fruit?

They just weren't supposed to understand between good and evil. There is a quite a bit of debate as to what that means but many interpret it as a general all-encompassing wisdom.

arpgme
3) If Satan only lies and is complete darkness, how did he tell Adam and Eve the truth about their eyes being opened?

Because the serpent didn't lie. He told them the truth about the fruit opening their eyes and that it wouldn't kill them. The fruit didn't kill them and they received divine wisdom. So much, in fact, that YHWH was scared enough to punish them.

arpgme
3) How did Adam and Eve have free-will to be evil (disobey) If they didn't even understand the concept?

Great question. I always wondered how they could be blamed if they were without a moral compass nor wills of their own. It seems like YHWH would have said "Oh, alright... I'll let this one slide because I didn't create you to actually know any better. Now you do so don't do that crap again". Instead, he got scurred and pulled out the ban hammer.

Cuervo

arpgme
1) How is it possible for death not to exist? If Adam and Eve didn't eat the fruit and death didn't exist how can all those humans be on the planet? There Is already overpopulation imagine if no human ever died since the beginning of time.

Death did exist. Nothing says otherwise. The church assumes that they were immortal because the alternative means that YHWH lied to them.

arpgme
2) How can Adam and Eve understand God if God is 100% goodness but they have no concept of good and evil until after they've eaten the fruit?

They just weren't supposed to understand between good and evil. There is a quite a bit of debate as to what that means but many interpret it as a general all-encompassing wisdom.

arpgme
3) If Satan only lies and is complete darkness, how did he tell Adam and Eve the truth about their eyes being opened?

Because the serpent didn't lie. He told them the truth about the fruit opening their eyes and that it wouldn't kill them. The fruit didn't kill them and they received divine wisdom. So much, in fact, that YHWH was scared enough to punish them.

arpgme
3) How did Adam and Eve have free-will to be evil (disobey) If they didn't even understand the concept?

Great question. I always wondered how they could be blamed if they were without a moral compass nor wills of their own. It seems like YHWH would have said "Oh, alright... I'll let this one slide because I didn't create you to actually know any better. Now you do so don't do that crap again". Instead, he got scurred and pulled out the ban hammer.

And it is here that I would like to interject some things from the Bible that are just being learned...

In the Hebrew we are told that the Elohim created mankind, but then we see later it was Yaweh (but not really Yaweh in that sense) came down and walked and talked with the man in the garden.

Why is this important? Because Elohim is the plural word and has a feminine meaning. Elohim is the council of the Gods, not the Royal We, as some claim. Elohim is without a doubt a plural feminine. It was to the command of The I AM (What has been translated from Yaweh) that the serpent was speaking, but not to the command of the Elohim.

And we are learning two Hebrew words that are just being understood, tohu va bohu, which means a destruction of complete desolation. One would wonder why the man and woman were told to "replenish" if they were the first. Replenish means to add to again. There was a world here before the creation of the man and woman, one that included humans. Man could not be given a command to replenish, if there had been nothing prior.

But these are Hebrew terms, that people are just now understanding.

Now as far as the not eating of the tree, it was the command of Yaweh, and not Elohim. So it was a direct challenge to the authority of Yaweh.

In that verse "has God said thou shalt surely die?" In that verse, the Hebrew is switched back to Elohim, and no, the Elohim had not given the command. But this is why she was beguiled, because even though Yaweh had said it, the Elohim had not. But it was Yaweh that the ancient writers had said the covenants were made with. The attack was not against Elohim, but Yaweh's authority.

I hope that helps, and carry on.

WarminIndy

In that verse "has God said thou shalt surely die?" In that verse, the Hebrew is switched back to Elohim, and no, the Elohim had not given the command. But this is why she was beguiled, because even though Yaweh had said it, the Elohim had not. But it was Yaweh that the ancient writers had said the covenants were made with. The attack was not against Elohim, but Yaweh's authority.

I hope that helps, and carry on.

Now that is something new to me. I have always read and understood Genesis as there being a god(dess) pantheon that created the first people and then Yahweh created Adam and Eve after that. The switching back and forth between "Elohim" and "Yahweh" during the serpent dialog is pretty cool to know, thank you.

Wouldn't that imply that the serpent is more of an ally of the original deities or do you think he simply wanted to liberate Adam and Eve?

Cuervo

WarminIndy

In that verse "has God said thou shalt surely die?" In that verse, the Hebrew is switched back to Elohim, and no, the Elohim had not given the command. But this is why she was beguiled, because even though Yaweh had said it, the Elohim had not. But it was Yaweh that the ancient writers had said the covenants were made with. The attack was not against Elohim, but Yaweh's authority.

I hope that helps, and carry on.

Now that is something new to me. I have always read and understood Genesis as there being a god(dess) pantheon that created the first people and then Yahweh created Adam and Eve after that. The switching back and forth between "Elohim" and "Yahweh" during the serpent dialog is pretty cool to know, thank you.

Wouldn't that imply that the serpent is more of an ally of the original deities or do you think he simply wanted to liberate Adam and Eve?

I would think if the serpent were aware of tohu va bohu and the destruction in that previous world, then it would probably be more concerned about bringing mankind to the destruction again.

reply to post by arpgme


Don't expect any real answers here. I would suggest answersingenesis.org and creation.com if you really desire to have your questions answered truthfully.

~RG~

RevelationGeneration
reply to post by arpgme

 

Don't expect any real answers here. I would suggest answersingenesis.org and creation.com if you really desire to have your questions answered truthfully.

~RG~

edit on 24-11-2013 by RevelationGeneration because: (no reason given)

I'd agree with that ^
...but I'd like to think that my answers (above) were truthful - and Biblical!

reply to post by arpgme

3) If Satan only lies and is complete darkness, how did he tell Adam and Eve the truth about their eyes being opened?

His task is to tempt. Father told them not to do something, but they were led to do it via external source. So, he may do what is needed to complete his tasks.

1) How is it possible for death not to exist? If Adam and Eve didn't eat the fruit and death didn't exist how can all those humans be on the planet? There Is already overpopulation imagine if no human ever died since the beginning of time.

When it is not preceded by birth into physical life. Some 'humans' were not 'in the garden', and were already subject to birth-life-death. A&E (if they hadn't eaten the fruit) would have 'lived' much much longer. As it happened, the communication circuits to 'head office' were shut down, because of the 'rebellion'...and everyone had to make-do with what was left...shorter lives, followed by physical death etc etc etc...

2) How can Adam and Eve understand God if God is 100% goodness but they have no concept of good and evil until after they've eaten the fruit?

The assumption is that those that did the 'creating' were THE God...

3) If Satan only lies and is complete darkness, how did he tell Adam and Eve the truth about their eyes being opened?

Jumbled concept acknowledged...when is a liar telling the truth?

3) How did Adam and Eve have free-will to be evil (disobey) If they didn't even understand the concept?

Every spirit-infused being has free will...they didn't understand the consequences...

Å99

akushla99
1) How is it possible for death not to exist? If Adam and Eve didn't eat the fruit and death didn't exist how can all those humans be on the planet? There Is already overpopulation imagine if no human ever died since the beginning of time.

When it is not preceded by birth into physical life. Some 'humans' were not 'in the garden', and were already subject to birth-life-death. A&E (if they hadn't eaten the fruit) would have 'lived' much much longer. As it happened, the communication circuits to 'head office' were shut down, because of the 'rebellion'...and everyone had to make-do with what was left...shorter lives, followed by physical death etc etc etc...


The assumption is that those that did the 'creating' were THE God...

3) If Satan only lies and is complete darkness, how did he tell Adam and Eve the truth about their eyes being opened?

I want to jump on his point 2, if I may A99...

2) How can Adam and Eve understand God if God is 100% goodness but they have no concept of good and evil until after they've eaten the fruit?

Nothing in the Biblical story implies they knew or understood the goodness of God. But nowhere does it imply God is 100% goodness either, where does that idea come from?

The whole issue with the tree was knowledge of good and evil. They were freely permitted to eat of the tree of life before this, so why did the serpent only tempt them with knowledge of good and evil? They had not eaten of the tree of life, so whatever means the tree of life would have kept them alive, they did not partake of. It seems they were unaware of this fact.

3) How did Adam and Eve have free-will to be evil (disobey) If they didn't even understand the concept?

Every spirit-infused being has free will...they didn't understand the consequences...

Å99

I don't know what spirit infused means, because I understand everyone having a spirit and a soul, all together present in the physical body, and the breath of life made man a living soul.

No, they didn't understand that they were already living, that they had means to live forever, but it's funny how the tree of knowledge of good and evil would be associated with life. Why would the serpent not point out to them the tree of life instead. So it has to go back to this, because of this act of eating, it also introduced into the Bible the first sacrifice, God shed the blood of animals to cover the man and woman. I think that is what it leads to, redemption through sacrifice. As we see this first sacrifice made on the behalf of mankind by God, it is repeated again in Jesus. God provided the lamb, as Abraham said.

The consequences were more than just being put out of the garden, but put out of the fellowship with God, and this is the point the serpent knew, a perpetual life outside the presence of God. Remember that God walked and talked with the man, and it was the last time when God came down.

Separation from God is what happened. Death is only physical for the body, but to live outside the presence of God, that's the worst knowledge of all. The death that Eve thought was physical, was actually death in the sense of separation from God. The disobedience was not in eating, but in separating from God, by making a choice to eat.

Have you ever heard people say "It kills me to know".

ETA: We now know Lady Gaga upstaged Miley Cyrus giving an interview by riding in on a horse...what ultimate good does that knowledge do for us?

(Just thought to throw that one in for a laugh)

reply to post by WarminIndy

I don't know what spirit infused means, because I understand everyone having a spirit and a soul, all together present in the physical body, and the breath of life made man a living soul.

Not all beings have spirits, some are just vessels. Spirit infused would mean a vessel having a spirit. Vessels are kind of like a barebones spirit, just have the basic parameters of what it takes to carry out its purpose. But, a spirit is a conscious entity.

This is from my viewpoint, A99, may explain this in greater detail.

reply to post by WarminIndy


"Nothing in the Biblical story implies they knew or understood the goodness of God. But nowhere does it imply God is 100% goodness either, where does that idea come from? The whole issue with the tree was knowledge of good and evil. They were freely permitted to eat of the tree of life before this, so why did the serpent only tempt them with knowledge of good and evil? They had not eaten of the tree of life, so whatever means the tree of life would have kept them alive, they did not partake of. It seems they were unaware of this fact." Quote WII

I have to agree with that opening statement, and my question is obliquely answered further on when referring to assumptions about God (at this point).

"I don't know what spirit infused means, because I understand everyone having a spirit and a soul, all together present in the physical body, and the breath of life made man a living soul." Quote WII

I believe parts of this story are VERY condensed (and not necessarily in order)...however, at 1:27, there is no mention of spirit being installed.

"No, they didn't understand that they were already living, that they had means to live forever, but it's funny how the tree of knowledge of good and evil would be associated with life. Why would the serpent not point out to them the tree of life instead. So it has to go back to this, because of this act of eating, it also introduced into the Bible the first sacrifice..." Quote WII

I'm gonna go a bit woo-woo on you here...I believe the 'second' of the creations (that what mentions A&E) was a more supernatural event...the garden was protected from outside (from previously created animals and humans [not necessarily spirit infused])...inside was everything they needed to populate the planet...the tree of life wasn't for them (because they were essentially hybridised), and the tree of knowledge, was another of these trees...the result of eating them (because it wasn't for them) would mess with thier...mmm...constitutional requirements, as ambassadors to a newly established local universe, planetary system, planet and location.

The 'gods' mentioned in 1:27 were/are the local system creators (under instruction from above) that's why the confusion over 'one & many' is a seemingly striking problem...Louie Cipher (one of the overseers of the project, under instruction) had been (with 1/3 of its helpers) in a 'war of words in heaven' (a rebellion) with the Head Office...at some stage, effective communication circuits were severed (on purpose) leaving the advance party, its created works and the local planetary system to fend for itself...marooned...
Jesus/Michael (once the discussions over his elevation to Prince status occured), returned to wheel it all back on track...

Å99

reply to post by akushla99



That could be one way of looking at it.

But I prefer the Enigma of Sade's Mea Culpa. Take a deep breath, close your eyes...Procedamus in pace In nomine Christi, Amen

Sade, diabolique ou divin?

akushla99
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

"Nothing in the Biblical story implies they knew or understood the goodness of God. But nowhere does it imply God is 100% goodness either, where does that idea come from?

This is incorrect.

"God is light; in Him there is no darkness at all." - 1 John 1:5

"The LORD is upright; he is my Rock, and there is no wickedness in him." - Psalm 92:15

"His work is perfect, For all His ways are just; A God of faithfulness and without injustice, Righteous and upright is He" - Deuteronomy 32:4

“Therefore, listen to me, you men of understanding. Far be it from God to do wickedness, and from the Almighty to do wrong." - Job 34:10

"You are not a God who endures wickedness; no evil dwells in you." - Psalm 5:4

Awen24

akushla99
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

"Nothing in the Biblical story implies they knew or understood the goodness of God. But nowhere does it imply God is 100% goodness either, where does that idea come from?

This is incorrect.

"God is light; in Him there is no darkness at all." - 1 John 1:5

"The LORD is upright; he is my Rock, and there is no wickedness in him." - Psalm 92:15

"His work is perfect, For all His ways are just; A God of faithfulness and without injustice, Righteous and upright is He" - Deuteronomy 32:4

“Therefore, listen to me, you men of understanding. Far be it from God to do wickedness, and from the Almighty to do wrong." - Job 34:10

"You are not a God who endures wickedness; no evil dwells in you." - Psalm 5:4

edit on 25-11-2013 by Awen24 because: (no reason given)

Awen, thank you.

The Bible also says God is a man of war. David said God taught his hands how to war. He is also a jealous God.

But if we accept God in the totality of God, being God, then we are going to have to accept there are things about God that are very hard to take. God is also the God of judgment and punishment. Just on these threads alone, all they see is God as that harsh and judgmental being. And that's what we can't ignore, and that is the accusation made against us via God,that we can't see these attributes.

God has many attributes that are manifest in different ways. Can we show God as 100% good in our eyes, or in the supremacy of His being, with all His attributes? I also have to recognize that God sent an evil spirit to torment Saul and that God repented to Moses for the evil He thought to do to Israel.

But the purposes of the manifested attributes, why did it appear to Job that God was not wicked, in the sense that God wouldn't purposely play with Job like a cat does with a mouse? One might say God did that very thing, but did He? Is that the wickedness Job was referring to?

One might say God was wicked for hardening Pharaoh's heart enough to let Israel escape, but then drowned Pharaoh's army. That's an accusation placed against God's goodness, which does not make God wicked, but that oftentimes does things in His own knowledge and wisdom that can't be perceived by humans. Job also said "though He slay me, yet will I trust Him". Why would God slay to prove a person's trust? This is what they ask of us to answer.

God is totally God, therefore everything that God is, is ultimate. I know these Bible verses but they are juxtaposed between ultimate love and ultimate destruction.

God is also a fire, God also answers by fire. Let the God who answers by fire be God. And this is exactly what Zoroaster said in the Avestas.

God is our Sun and shield. Does that mean God is an allegorical sun? It doesn't say that, so God must also be the physical sun, of which Zoroaster, the Akkadians and the Egyptians all said.

But to say God had none of these other attributes, is simply misleading, tell it to the Israelites bitten by snakes and the earthquake that swallowed them all.

For whatever reason God manifests all these attributes, it is only to the writer who perceives God at that moment as having that attribute. In God's supremecy, He must have these attributes, but must according to His wisdom, display what He needs to at the time He needs to. I would not say God is evil, what I would suggest is that because we don't understand God's fullness, we should not limit God to just one perspective.

WarminIndy
reply to post by akushla99

 

That could be one way of looking at it.

But I prefer the Enigma of Sade's Mea Culpa. Take a deep breath, close your eyes...Procedamus in pace In nomine Christi, Amen

Sade, diabolique ou divin?

Les duex ensembles. Sade, voice of an angel...flip sides of the same coin - dual...these are questions worth asking WII, I appreciate the exchange greatly. We go in peace

Å99