Does God and his --- Obey or Die law--- say that Christians are to be slaves forever?

AfterInfinity
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

Fellowship usually includes reciprocity. One who perpetually serves and is never served back cannot say that he is in fellowship with the other. He is subservient to him. Right?

Making my arguments for me! Bravo! Yes, I do agree. There is a reason that if ever I desire salvation, it will not be the Christian salvation. There are several reasons, actually, but this is one of them.

I wanted to expand on the notion of reciprocity and fellowship just to drive your good point home.

Regards
DL

Greatest I am

SasquatchHunter

Greatest I am
Does God and his --- Obey or Die law--- say that Christians are to be slaves forever?

If not, when does your slavery to God or Satan end?


In a discussion of God’s murder of Adam and Eve, a Christian said the following.

“My understanding is that they were created innocent with the hope of the reward for life if they obeyed and the consequence of death if they didn't.”

What this Christian said I believe is true Christian dogma and tradition.

I believe that it basically shows Christians with characters or egos that want to be or will settle for perpetual slavery.
As Paul says, be a slave to sin or a slave to God.

My reply was basic and true to his, ---- Obey or die, statement.

“IOW. Be my slave and do as you are told or die.”


If true, then who in their right mind would or should ever want to be a Christian?

Do Christians want to be free men and women or slaves to a God who creates us ill and demands we be well, ----- or suffer his punishment of death?

www.youtube.com...

Was man created to be a slave and to obey or die?

The sin of Eve and Adam was to decide to be educated and wise instead of just slaves to ignorance.

Were Adam and Eve murdered by neglect by a callous God just because they wanted their eyes opened and to exercise the free will that Christians say God gave us?

The Christians God and his --- Obey or Die --- says that Christians are to be slaves forever.

If not, when does your slavery to God or Satan end?

Regards
DL

edit on 24-11-2013 by Greatest I am because: (no reason given)

God is the creator of the universe who exists outside of it space and time..... HOW CAN GOD MURDER ANYTHING?
If that's the case you committed murder when you edited your post and deleted key strokes. How many innocent stickman drawings have been murdered???? Where is their justice?

No one is Gods slave you have freewill and your mind and body belongs to you. The soul is by default a gift offered from God but the soul belongs to God he already gave you a mind and body to do with as you please. If you choose the gift of eternal life it is of your own freewiil.

So Peter was lying then was he?

How can a slave to God have free will? A & E did not have it or the first time they did their will and not God's he threw his fit and murdered them by neglect.

Regards
DL

What?
God created angels and the supernatural creatures before man. Man is special because we have freewill, unlike the creations before us.
Whether their was a magical garden I have no idea the concept is easy to see, even written for people to understand over a 1,000 years ago.....

At one point in time man and God were among each other. Man of his own freewill rejected God going against Gods wishes in the Garden of Eden releasing sin into the world. God casts man out of his precense we are separate from God. We chose this path sin does not exist in the prescense of God. Men are not immortal beings except in the precense of God. From the dirt they came and the dirt they go. This is the story of Adam and Eve and the fall of man.

Jesus is the living God. This is just a piece of God he separated himself to be able to be in the precense of man.The soul is a piece of God it is eternal and never ending just like him. When you realize their is no way but Gods way and of your own freewill you have the choice to accept that piece of him that allows you to be in his precense.

If you choose to reject God and continue your own way of your own freewill. You will never be in the precense of God.

Your calling God a murderer the creator of the Universe cannot possibly ever murder anything. You cannot apply human concepts of accountability to the creator of all that exists.

reply to post by SasquatchHunter


Not a murderer?

I beg to differ

God takes away Adam and Eve's eternal life, thus committing the first murder,
He holds their descendants responsible visiting Adam and Eve's punishment down on their children.

God's tenth plague upon the Israelites was the unjustified murder of all firstborn sons in Egypt, which undoubtedly included little children.

God orders the Levites to kill their "every man and his neighbor" for worshipping another god. This cost 3000 lives. (Exodus 32:27

God kills Onan for refusing to impregnate his late brother's (whom God also slew) wife and instead "spilling his seed on the ground." (Genesis 38:8-10)

God kills over 50,000 people for looking at an ark. (1 Samuel 6:19)

God kills 70,000 people because King David decided to have a census. (1 Chronicles 21:7-14)

It seems to me that God is a murderer but hey if he is real you need not reply to me for he will have already stuck me down with some kind of punishment of his own for having used my free will to determine he sounds like one big ass right?

coldlikecustard
reply to post by SasquatchHunter

 

Not a murderer?

I beg to differ

God takes away Adam and Eve's eternal life, thus committing the first murder,
He holds their descendants responsible visiting Adam and Eve's punishment down on their children.

God's tenth plague upon the Israelites was the unjustified murder of all firstborn sons in Egypt, which undoubtedly included little children.

God orders the Levites to kill their "every man and his neighbor" for worshipping another god. This cost 3000 lives. (Exodus 32:27

God kills Onan for refusing to impregnate his late brother's (whom God also slew) wife and instead "spilling his seed on the ground." (Genesis 38:8-10)

God kills over 50,000 people for looking at an ark. (1 Samuel 6:19)

God kills 70,000 people because King David decided to have a census. (1 Chronicles 21:7-14)

It seems to me that God is a murderer but hey if he is real you need not reply to me for he will have already stuck me down with some kind of punishment of his own for having used my free will to determine he sounds like one big ass right?

Have you ever drawn anything and thrown it away? Have you ever created anything and threw it away? If so by your logic you are a murderer.
If were saying God is a murderer then were saying God is real if God is real he created everything that exists. If you go back 10-15 billions year ago when the universe was created and go to infinity this is less than God. God exists outside of space time reality and the universe.
If the universe and reality only exist by the will of God then by default he is infallible he cannot possibly murder anything. Everything is created by him. Everything exists only because of him.

You are trying to apply accountability to the creator of all existance ??????? Do you understand the problem?

reply to post by SasquatchHunter


I understand what you say but we are talking about the God of the christian bible here it is that particular God i call an ass Not the God i believe in because as you so rightly say the real God created all and is outside of space and time all powerful and all loving that is also my God but this here christian bible reads a little different dont ya think? well I do but that's just little old me's opinion

reply to post by coldlikecustard


I can respect that. I understand what your saying. If were talking about the Christian Bible all that matters in the end is the narrative Jesus Christ and the equality of all men being inheritants to the kingdom of God. The OT is context the narrative for me reads as the start of man his fall and struggles along the way in the absense of God.

AfterInfinity
There is a reason that if ever I desire salvation, it will not be the Christian salvation. There are several reasons, actually, but this is one of them.

But you do desire salvation .You voice that all the time here.You want to experience life..grow..expand beyond what appears to be "now"...That is salvation. Deliverance from "death" by growing.You are hung up on religious rhetoric of salvation as being an act performed to cause and event..absolute nonsense.You are trapped in a prison and although it isn't the same prison of belief as the Christian it is a prison of your beliefs.

You have stated many times you believe(because you don't know) in just living your life as fully as possble then dieing and that will be that.Eat drink and be merry (or bang Mary) for tomorrow you die.That is bondage...slavery..to your ideals.I am not condemning you for it.You are living in your heavens.Your "high" place.In your heavens there is no more than that.It is "in" your mind.Thoughts of your "brian".You are a true man of the soil (Adam).

You have stated many times you don't believe in "a" hell nor "a" heaven and you are absolutely correct.There is no "places"such as hell or heaven. What is called hell is hades.The grave the realm of the dead the realm of imperception..you do believe in that.When you're dead...you're dead...kaput ...no life, no thoughts, no thrill or agony.That is "your" heavens.

However the fact is whether you "will" it or not in your heavens..... you will be saved.There is zero choice involved.You didn't choose to be conceived you didn't cause the process of growing in your mothers womb you didn't "choose" to be born etc etc...the same basic process is happening NOW...to EVERYONE.....there is no choice involved.

That's a process of salvation(of the infinite) ..being "delivered"!When you are "woke up" from your death sleep you will be born...and just like a baby your eyes will be opened and you'll have to adjust from seeing everything upside down....and there will be crying and screaming ..lots and lots of crying and screaming..and flailing of arms and legs and eventually mounds of crap...babies are cute ...but they stink a lot.

and guess what ...you were just delivered..You can kick and scream all you want and try to climb back in your safe little womb except... it ain't gonna happen.You had no choice the first time you were born and you'll have none the 2nd time either...tough titties.

My suggestion is quit trying to figure it out( you never will) and kick against the goads,You are correct... Christianity is wrong.They are just as clueless as you are.When that enters your heavens you will have changed (repented) a little ..and then the thing you call expanding your MIND will happen.The brian is good.It has a job and does what it's purpose is very well however...it is a very poor heavens .It is in bondage to the earth (material universe). it thinks thoughts of Adam (dirt)..it desires to return to the dust and lay there...being dead.Dead is easy.. life is hard...life is reality....the valley of the shadow of death(the physical realm) is just that..a valley and in the shadow of death.

The good thing about all this "salvation" stuff is you don't have to do anything.It is all given and you only receive. When you are ready to receive ...it will be given to you.Not one nano second before and not by your "will.That fallacious "being" will be doing it all.It is not interested one bit in your belief(or non belief) only "knowing".Belief speculates from the sidelines "knowing" experiences in the field.

so being saved .... damn right you are.

reply to post by Greatest I am

I believe that it basically shows Christians with characters or egos that want to be or will settle for perpetual slavery.

Your stated belief raises many replies in my mind.

History proves that man can not live together in peace and harmony.

I have to say that you make a great mistake when you rely on the word of christians for the truth of the Bible.
Do you not see that if you follow any faction they may lead you straight to hell. When you get to hell you plead "but I followed the pope". The gate keeper answers "the pope lacks qualification". You backed the wrong horse. Look, all factions present themselves as god's anointed, do they not? The factions of the popes claim that their church is official because it was founded by Peter. Clearly the factions of organized religion cannot all be the chosen few. If they were they would live in peace and harmony. History shows they don't. Catholics slaughtered each other in WWII.

There is no faction for you. What do you do? You make up your own mind for yourself. Then when you go to hell (or heaven) there is no one to blame but yourself.

Why do the different factions claim divinity for themselves? Arrogance. Ego. Greed.

History proves that men can not live together in peace and harmony. Why? The answer seems easy to me. Arrogance.

I myself am not an authority. Do not follow me anywhere. I do not want the responsibility.

The first and great commandment is to love thy God with all thy heart and sole.

This requires that you abandon your ego and acknowledge God. You will have lifted the burden from your sole and set it free. You are a slave to no one. You and the others like you can live in peace and harmony in our creator's kingdom. You think you know what makes you happy. You believe this because of your ego. The first commandment is our creator telling you that He is the one that knows what makes you happy.

Eve (and Adam) did not do this. Satan taught them arrogance. We inherited ego from The first couple.

Perhaps you think you are not arrogant. We are here in a forum called ATS. People post comments. Why? Their ego tells them they have the knowledge of good and evil. They are the authority on the topic.

Read any post (including your own and mine) and look for evidence of arrogance. You will find it in abundance.

144,000 are sealed to get through the Tribulation in safety. Things are much less sure for the rest of us, we may or may not survive to the end. But it says nothing about who is or is not saved forever. You can die on the first day of the Trib and still be saved.

reply to post by Greatest I am


Christianity and the work of Christ is all about liberation and freedom that we might be set free for the sake of freedom to freely love as we are loved.

There is no need for a socio-political structure, in heaven. God's love and it's unassailable and indomitable reason forms it's own self governance.

It's very funny and beautiful and magnificent, but some are at odds with it, and who would, if they could place God in the dock and subject him to a false judgement, I certainly wouldn't want to be in the shoes of that prosecuting attorney!

You better hope for your sake that God has a great sense of humor and a very very deep well of mercy.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


So you're just going to ignore the scripture in the op?

reply to post by SasquatchHunter

God exists outside of space time reality and the universe.

Uhhh....how exactly do you know this?

leostokes
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

I believe that it basically shows Christians with characters or egos that want to be or will settle for perpetual slavery.

Your stated belief raises many replies in my mind.

History proves that man can not live together in peace and harmony.

I have to say that you make a great mistake when you rely on the word of christians for the truth of the Bible.
Do you not see that if you follow any faction they may lead you straight to hell. When you get to hell you plead "but I followed the pope". The gate keeper answers "the pope lacks qualification". You backed the wrong horse. Look, all factions present themselves as god's anointed, do they not? The factions of the popes claim that their church is official because it was founded by Peter. Clearly the factions of organized religion cannot all be the chosen few. If they were they would live in peace and harmony. History shows they don't. Catholics slaughtered each other in WWII.

There is no faction for you. What do you do? You make up your own mind for yourself. Then when you go to hell (or heaven) there is no one to blame but yourself.

Why do the different factions claim divinity for themselves? Arrogance. Ego. Greed.

History proves that men can not live together in peace and harmony. Why? The answer seems easy to me. Arrogance.

I myself am not an authority. Do not follow me anywhere. I do not want the responsibility.

The first and great commandment is to love thy God with all thy heart and sole.

This requires that you abandon your ego and acknowledge God. You will have lifted the burden from your sole and set it free. You are a slave to no one. You and the others like you can live in peace and harmony in our creator's kingdom. You think you know what makes you happy. You believe this because of your ego. The first commandment is our creator telling you that He is the one that knows what makes you happy.

Eve (and Adam) did not do this. Satan taught them arrogance. We inherited ego from The first couple.

Perhaps you think you are not arrogant. We are here in a forum called ATS. People post comments. Why? Their ego tells them they have the knowledge of good and evil. They are the authority on the topic.

Read any post (including your own and mine) and look for evidence of arrogance. You will find it in abundance.

edit on 24-11-2013 by leostokes because: (no reason given)

edit on 24-11-2013 by leostokes because: general things

Absolutely.

Now. Care to speak to the issues of the O P.

Regards
DL

ketsuko
144,000 are sealed to get through the Tribulation in safety. Things are much less sure for the rest of us, we may or may not survive to the end. But it says nothing about who is or is not saved forever. You can die on the first day of the Trib and still be saved.

If God is our creator, he must be creating us as normal people and the way he wants us to be. This is obvious.

If normal people sin, why would God punish people for being normal?

It is said that to continue to do something the same way and expecting a different result is a sign of insanity.

If God continues to create us, knowing that the vast majority of us will end in hell, then he is insane. Right?

Regards
DL

NewAgeMan
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

Christianity and the work of Christ is all about liberation and freedom that we might be set free for the sake of freedom to freely love as we are loved.

There is no need for a socio-political structure, in heaven. God's love and it's unassailable and indomitable reason forms it's own self governance.

It's very funny and beautiful and magnificent, but some are at odds with it, and who would, if they could place God in the dock and subject him to a false judgement, I certainly wouldn't want to be in the shoes of that prosecuting attorney!

You better hope for your sake that God has a great sense of humor and a very very deep well of mercy.

I am sure God has a sense of humor.

I am sure he laughs every time he sends the vast majority of us to purposeless torture in hell. It is the laugh of an insane God who is far less than any human.

Regards
DL

AfterInfinity
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

So you're just going.to ignore the scripture in the op?

Theists have to ignore much of scriptures and their own morality to be able to stomach their genocidal son murdering God.

Regards
DL

reply to post by Greatest I am


They were murdered by neglect?

If you recall, they did have access to the tree of life before and didn't eat from it and were never commanded not to...so too bad so sad on their part.

Murder by neglect? From the Garden and now had to work? Do you equate working to being murdered by God?

They became slaves to the ground, of which their bread would come from. They became slaves to the work of their own hands and the sweat of their brow. When does that ever end? Oh yes, in the end.

If God wanted, He could have made the earth not produce anything, but He didn't, so man still was able to eat. You are a slave to the sweat of your brow until someone else does it for you or you die.

Greatest I am

AfterInfinity
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

So you're just going.to ignore the scripture in the op?

Theists have to ignore much of scriptures and their own morality to be able to stomach their genocidal son murdering God.

Regards
DL

I see that anti-theists ignore scripture, to ignore their own mortality. What part of "Jesus is God" and came as a man do you have trouble with? You claim God was genocidal in killing His Son, and yet you don't cross that bridge that Jesus came into this world knowing the purpose for His coming. It wasn't like He was unaware.

What you think is genocide, is His own self-sacrifice. Why ignore the scriptures that teach that? Oh, I suppose it would make you a theist if you didn't ignore them.

reply to post by WarminIndy


You have my answer in the other thread, right here. I don't care if Jesus was real or what he came to do. I don't feel I owe him anything. I didn't ask him to die for me. So if he wants to get pissed, tell him to take it up with his dad. Apparently, being omniscient means failing to foresee a lot of failures in your design. Either that, or God's a sadistic [insert highly extensive list of expletives here] who deserves to suffer in the same hellfire as Hitler and Rasputin for at least ten times as long as they would.

WarminIndy
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

They were murdered by neglect?

If you recall, they did have access to the tree of life before and didn't eat from it and were never commanded not to...so too bad so sad on their part.

Murder by neglect? From the Garden and now had to work? Do you equate working to being murdered by God?

They became slaves to the ground, of which their bread would come from. They became slaves to the work of their own hands and the sweat of their brow. When does that ever end? Oh yes, in the end.

If God wanted, He could have made the earth not produce anything, but He didn't, so man still was able to eat. You are a slave to the sweat of your brow until someone else does it for you or you die.

What do you have against not being a kept pet?
Do you resent having to be as man so much child?
Don't be afraid to grow up.

You are right that they had access to the tree of life before God reneged and locked it away and thus insured that A & E died. If that is not murder to you then you show how your religion has corrupted your morals.

Regards
DL