The Modernization of Chinese Military Power

Zaphod58
reply to post by Sammamishman

 

The Chinese and Russians both have huge engine development problems. I talked to a Russian pilot several years ago who told me that when they would take off in a Condor, they'd have to sit on the runway for two minutes at full power. If none of the engines failed, they'd release the brakes and take off.

And that has been a huge problem for them for a very long time. They are just starting to get the conventional turbine figured out let alone a Stealth vectored thrust version with super cruise.

reply to post by Patriotsrevenge


There are plenty of close up pictures of engine nozzles on the F-22 and F-35. It's not the nozzle that's the top secret portion of it, it's the internal workings.

Zaphod58
reply to post by Patriotsrevenge

 

There are plenty of close up pictures of engine nozzles on the F-22 and F-35. It's not the nozzle that's the top secret portion of it, it's the internal workings.

Would you hush up already ! I meant from the back but did not have to elaborate lol.

reply to post by Patriotsrevenge


There are pictures from the back as well. It's deep inside the engine on those where the good stuff is.

reply to post by Patriotsrevenge

One could argue farther. Just look how long it took them to get a working Atlas rocket. The American Army designed Redstone rocket was the first to successfully launch into space.

You make a good point but it has to be taken with a major factor here. China wasn't in the business of pursuing the majority of this until rather recently. If the space race or arms race had been a 3-way contest and not a 2 sided one, China would look a little backward.

However, China has been an agrarian society, largely by choice, until quite recently as timelines go. In being so late to choosing to get into it? They've done amazing things for catch-up in a very short time.

As a book I'd read a number of years ago put it. When China/Chinese business decides it needs a circuit or widget of some sort, they don't build a factory to make some. They build a small city of factories to corner and supply the market ...since, if they need them, surely others do to, so why not make many? So Chinese thinking and evolution has gone. Very effective too.

Hopefully that hasn't extended equally into areas kept in total secrecy. That would tend to bring some rather rude surprises that no one calculated for ..but then, history is full of such moments.

reply to post by Patriotsrevenge


The AL-31-117C has demonstrated super cruise ability on an Su-35. The AL-41 in development has an in service date of around 2020, which will be just about when they plan to have the first T-50s in operational squadrons.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Exactly! Even other countries are selling/giving them American tech. What happened to that stealth helicopter that went down in Abbottabad (sp)? Israel sells them tech (guess who pays for their tech?), even the engineers themselves are selling classif ied tech.

China is doing this the smart/less expensive way.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


I think one of the issues China has with developing tech that is genuinely indigenous is the education system that is in use in China and other countries in the region. They are brought up to be conformal to the thinking of a restrictive hierarchy. Not to think outside the box and do exactly as told or suffer punishment. I think this also was the case in Russia during the communist rule.
This differs with western education systems that I think encourages free thinking and to be outside the box to some extent, giving us the advantage in innovation.
My in-laws grew up in this type of education system, that is why if a family has money to send their kids to western cultures to go to school the do.

This is really a case of "why reinvent the wheel". If the design has been well-optimized for a specific mission, why not "borrow" or adapt it? They certainly don't feel ashamed about it, and I'm not sure they should.

_Del_
This is really a case of "why reinvent the wheel". If the design has been well-optimized for a specific mission, why not "borrow" or adapt it? They certainly don't feel ashamed about it, and I'm not sure they should.

Exactly when your behind the curve you do what you have to try and catch up. I think people forget China is surrounded by powerful nations that pose threats to it in the here and now. They do not have the luxery that the US does with huge oceans and friendly neighbors who pose no threat. Granted the Chinese stuff is going to be a lower quality copy missing lots of bells and whistles but, you do what you have to do to keep from falling to far behind. The only problem is you are forever catching up. And the quality of an air force also goes far beyond just its equipment and China has a long way to go to get close to western standards.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


It amazes me when people laud the US for having secret aircraft said to be so far in advance of anything else and yet cannot see that other countries can and do the same thing.

China has the production capability to build aircraft in the thousands, so where are they?

The old, 'they don't have an engine yet,' is just a bit silly to my way of thinking. They have the plans for these aircraft and what, they can't follow the blueprints?

I for one am not buying it! We see and believe exactly what they want us to see and believe. Much the same with Russia!

It is what we don't see that is the problem! I am leaning to the belief that the whole, 'look we copy you aircraft,' is a smoke screen. It is possible and feasible that somewhere in China are underground facilities housing combat ready aircraft in large numbers that at least perform as good as anything out there.

The Chinese (and the Russians) are not going to put their best tech in a bloody air show!

It is not the Chinese way! Only way to find out is to go to war! That would be a disaster!

P

Interesting aircraft, I personally like the Flanker out of the lot.

The feature of the "Flying Tail" the F-86 Sabre had was a secret up until it became common knowledge that it was just a better design. The coke bottle shape that developed out of the USAF supersonic interceptor program was a secret also until it became another commonly found feature. These imitated features you see on these Chinese aircraft are there because that is the best design configuration to the newer generation aircraft. I`ll bet future designs will look even more similar not because of stolen secrets but because the design is best suited to the task. Military aviation is just evolving.

reply to post by pheonix358


Have you looked at Russian jet engines? They suck. That's not from a website, that's from a Russian pilot. Those same engines are used in Chinese aircraft. It's not a matter of "following blueprints" it's a matter of playing catch up with engines. They've improved a ton in the last few years, but they still have to catch up. I guarantee that China has a lot more planes than we see, but that doesn't mean that they're super advanced major cutting edge space planes. Chinese and Russian philosophy, until recently has always been smaller, cheaper, quicker to build.

reply to post by pheonix358


Check out this video of Colonel Terrence Fornof USAF talking about the issues the Indian AF had with their Russian engines. Particularly 1:09 - 2:22.

www.youtube.com...

reply to post by Zaphod58


I acknowledge your point of view. I suggest what if it is a game to them! What if that Russian Pilot was supposed to say that. China could have a very good engine fitted to an equally good fighter and they just don't want the West to be aware of that fact.

Of course they would not give their best to India! It could be all part of the snow job.

On the other hand, they may well suck at engine design as you say!

But then that would mean that they cannot follow a set of stolen blueprints and that just does not wash.

P

reply to post by pheonix358


So he had scripted a completely random conversation that could happen with someone? I seriously doubt it.

And what blueprints do they "suck at following"? We're taking about independent engine design. There are no blueprints to follow when you design your own engines.

pheonix358
reply to post by Zaphod58

 

I acknowledge your point of view. I suggest what if it is a game to them! What if that Russian Pilot was supposed to say that. China could have a very good engine fitted to an equally good fighter and they just don't want the West to be aware of that fact.

Of course they would not give their best to India! It could be all part of the snow job.

On the other hand, they may well suck at engine design as you say!

But then that would mean that they cannot follow a set of stolen blueprints and that just does not wash.

P

Russia has this problem through out its entire defense industry. They can design things they just do not have enough skilled workers to build them in large numbers with any sort of quality. At the Soviet collapse all those workers went elsewhere for more money. This is why you see the French building ships for the Russian Navy and the Israelis building drones for them. China has never had a real defense industry and suffers the same problem of creating those skilled workers.

Also if your Russia or China surrounded by powerful enemies you never show weakness. In fact you do the exact opposite.

pheonix358
But then that would mean that they cannot follow a set of stolen blueprints and that just does not wash.

So if you stole the blueprints for an engine, then you automatically have the ability to work composites, and materials that you've never worked before?

reply to post by Zaphod58


And i believe as you and others do that this is quite a critical point... I suspect that few people realise just how much of the American workforce is engaged in defense industry related work and just how long it takes to develop the human resources and manufacturing/material production base for aircraft and tanks that we do not consider by any means special. It may turn out that these these fighting machines are over engineered or are simply not well suited to a next world war scenario but i think it's quite legitimate to say that even if you did steal the blueprints it means little unless you also stole the blueprints of every factory and data compiled by every subcontractor. Creating a military machine such as those of the US or ex USSR does not happen in a few decades and does not succeed without being tested multiple times against similarly well armed opponents.

The Chinese will keep arming themselves for decades to come and will IMO be as careful as the USSR was in avoiding openly provoking the USA into action; the US economy and general manufacturing base is being systematically hollow out by corporate forces but the military industrial base is still strong and will not be so easily degraded.

The fact that they US seems to be spoiling for a fight is probably not a fact that is being overlooked by either Russian or China.

Stellar

reply to post by Sammamishman


It's hard to compare Chinese hardware till we see it in Actual Combat. Obviously China could have some better overall costs and could crank out production.

All that doesn't matter if they can't cut it in combat or combat style maintenance. China hasn't shown me they can put out top of the line military hardware yet.