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How does "Faith" save?

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posted on Nov, 24 2013 @ 06:58 AM
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reply to post by gadfire
 



Exactly..some people cannot produce good works, they are disabled, etc..
So I guess it can be both..faith and/or works.


In that particular case as FlyersFan suggested... I would agree...

Jesus cured the blind man because of his Faith... right

We're really talking about those that can do work... and choose not to, which is what I covered in the OP





posted on Nov, 24 2013 @ 07:35 AM
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I am viewing this thread on a Sunday, and I consider this my service for the week. Good sermon pastor Akragon. Doesn't change my position, but good stuff still!



posted on Nov, 24 2013 @ 01:24 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 


If Paul's teachings were wrong they wouldn't be in the Bible. See 2 Timothy 3:16-17 " All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." Every word in the Bible is God-breathed and preserved by the Holy Spirit. That isn't to say that the Bible is without error, because the signs of human imperfection are certainly there, but the preservation of God's Word, the context and meaning of His Word are God -breathed.... including everything that Paul said.

Having said that, you have talked about faith as being part of Salvation, but you failed to talk about the other half of that equation... GRACE. God's Grace is a free gift to mankind. Grace is defined as receiving something that you don't deserve. Does anyone deserve God's Grace? Certainly not... "for all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God". If one must work towards their salvation, then it cannot be God's Grace that saves us, because it would be possible to do enough work to deserve salvation, which would mean that God's Grace wouldn't be required. We see this in Romans 11:6 "And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace."

Works are not required for salvation.



posted on Nov, 24 2013 @ 01:51 PM
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reply to post by OptimusSubprime
 



If Paul's teachings were wrong they wouldn't be in the Bible.


*clears throat*

*wipes hands on pants*

WHAT? By what rules????

Holy Moly.



posted on Nov, 24 2013 @ 01:54 PM
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OptimusSubprime
If Paul's teachings were wrong they wouldn't be in the Bible. See 2 Timothy 3:16-17 .... Every word in the Bible is God-breathed and preserved by the Holy Spirit.


That's circular logic. Pauls teachings are in the bible and therefore they are from God ... because the bible teachings say so? That's no different than Muslims who say that the Qu'ran is from God because the Qu'ran says it is. And we both know that the Qu'ran obviously isn't from God .. ya' know?



posted on Nov, 24 2013 @ 01:56 PM
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OptimusSubprime
Works are not required for salvation.

For those who can't do works ... correct. But for those who can ... 'faith without works is dead' - James 2:14 And since you believe that the bible is straight from God ... then what James said MUST be from God, right?



posted on Nov, 24 2013 @ 03:31 PM
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reply to post by OptimusSubprime
 

... GRACE. God's Grace is a free gift to mankind.

Grace is the way of describing how it is that we, gentiles, are in God's kingdom.
We aren't like the Jews part of Israel based on a special ancestry, and from generations of following Moses' Law.
Being allowed entrance into the church was what is "being saved", comparable to what the Jews would have felt being "in Israel".
So we aren't in the kingdom or the church or "saved" because of our works of that old written law but saved by the requirements in the new system of salvation, which is obeying the law of Christ, the Faith of Jesus.



posted on Nov, 24 2013 @ 03:33 PM
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reply to post by OptimusSubprime
 


So basically what you're saying is that Paul's words are from God because Paul says so? Come on! That's not even fair and you know it.

You do realize that Paul's words were not considered "scripture" until nearly 300 years later at the Council of Nicaea right? Paul was talking about OT scripture because that was the only scripture available at the time anyways, so he wasn't talking about himself in the first place.

Circular logic isn't sound logic.



posted on Nov, 24 2013 @ 03:39 PM
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Thank you all for your replies...Even those that are not of the same opinion

The world is under Gods law... and that law is LOVE

You can choose to obey it... OR not to... Its completely up to you

Though I will say, YOUR life will be a blessing if you follow Gods law

Be Love




posted on Nov, 24 2013 @ 04:00 PM
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wildtimes
reply to post by OptimusSubprime
 



If Paul's teachings were wrong they wouldn't be in the Bible.


*clears throat*

*wipes hands on pants*

WHAT? By what rules????

Holy Moly.


I would like an answer on this as well.



posted on Nov, 24 2013 @ 04:16 PM
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3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by OptimusSubprime
 


So basically what you're saying is that Paul's words are from God because Paul says so? Come on! That's not even fair and you know it.

You do realize that Paul's words were not considered "scripture" until nearly 300 years later at the Council of Nicaea right? Paul was talking about OT scripture because that was the only scripture available at the time anyways, so he wasn't talking about himself in the first place.

Circular logic isn't sound logic.


Have you read the Bible, specifically Acts and the letters of Paul? The Bible says that Paul was struck blind while on the road to Damascus where he was going to arrest and execute any Christian he could find. A voice said "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?" Paul responded "Who are you, Lord?" and the voice responded "I am Jesus, whom you persecute." Paul (who was still called Saul at the time) was led the rest of the way to Damascus by hand, and was blind for three days. Eventually a disciple of Jesus, Ananias, was told to go to the house where Paul was and to heal the man there who was blind.

Acts 9:11-19
"The Lord told him, “Go to the house of Judas on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying. 12 In a vision he has seen a man named Ananias come and place his hands on him to restore his sight.” 13 “Lord,” Ananias answered, “I have heard many reports about this man and all the harm he has done to your holy people in Jerusalem. 14 And he has come here with authority from the chief priests to arrest all who call on your name.” 15 But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel. 16 I will show him how much he must suffer for my name.” 17 Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord—Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here—has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18 Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul’s eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized, 19 and after taking some food, he regained his strength."



posted on Nov, 24 2013 @ 04:20 PM
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wildtimes
reply to post by OptimusSubprime
 



If Paul's teachings were wrong they wouldn't be in the Bible.


*clears throat*

*wipes hands on pants*

WHAT? By what rules????

Holy Moly.


By God's rules (see the verse that I quoted). Now I do realize that you may say that I am making a circular argument, and to someone who does not believe in God or at least God in the context of the Bible, it is an impossible conversation.



posted on Nov, 24 2013 @ 04:22 PM
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reply to post by ghostfacekilah00
 


That's what he just said... Pauls words are authority because Paul says so...


So basically what you're saying is that Paul's words are from God because Paul says so? Come on! That's not even fair and you know it.





posted on Nov, 24 2013 @ 04:58 PM
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reply to post by ghostfacekilah00
 


Which version of his conversion do you believe though?



Acts 9
7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.




Acts 22
9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.




Acts 26
14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.


So did the men who were with Paul see the light but not hear the voice or did they hear the voice but not see the light?

Did only Paul fall to the ground while the others stood there or did all of them fall to the ground?

One man wrote all three accounts, Luke, so you have to wonder why one man gave three different versions of the same event.

Usually liars can't keep their story straight.
edit on 24-11-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 24 2013 @ 05:09 PM
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OptimusSubprime

wildtimes
reply to post by OptimusSubprime
 



If Paul's teachings were wrong they wouldn't be in the Bible.


*clears throat*

*wipes hands on pants*

WHAT? By what rules????

Holy Moly.


By God's rules (see the verse that I quoted). Now I do realize that you may say that I am making a circular argument, and to someone who does not believe in God or at least God in the context of the Bible, it is an impossible conversation.


But you see my friend.... Its only impossible if you believe Pauls own circular logic...

he was the one that said "all Scripture is God breathed"... Which IRONICALLY got all his writing into the bible...

Yet even the church didn't obey this nonsense... they decided to include some "scripture" and exclude others...




posted on Nov, 24 2013 @ 05:31 PM
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3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by ghostfacekilah00
 


Which version of his conversion do you believe though?



Acts 9
7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.




Acts 22
9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.




Acts 26
14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.


So did the men who were with Paul see the light but not hear the voice or did they hear the voice but not see the light?

Did only Paul fall to the ground while the others stood there or did all of them fall to the ground?

One man wrote all three accounts, Luke, so you have to wonder why one man gave three different versions of the same event.

Usually liars can't keep their story straight.
edit on 24-11-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)


Getting the verses right might help. You were a little off on Acts 22:9. I see no contradiction.

Acts 9:7 - The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone.

Acts 22:9 - My companions saw the light, but they did not understand the voice of him who was speaking to me.

Acts 26:14 - We all fell to the ground, and I heard a voice saying to me in Aramaic, ‘Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? It is hard for you to kick against the pricks.’



posted on Nov, 24 2013 @ 06:04 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 


Akra

I will respect that you don't like Paul, but the charge was that he was legalistic, which certainly was not the case. But that's my belief in what I read.

Now as far as faith and being saved by works. do you think that one is saved, if only by faith even if he does evil works?

Remember that Jesus said to the rich young ruler "Keep the commadments" when the young man said that he had, then Jesus said to give away all that he had to the poor. The young man turned away sorrowful simply because his heart was not right, even though he kept the commandments. But the first thing Jesus answered with was "keep the commandments". Why would Jesus place emphasis first and foremost of keeping the commandments, if the commandments are not necessary because of faith in Him? The rich young ruler was asking about eternal life, which is part of salvation.

We saw the thief on the cross, and yet we know nothing about his life, why he was called a thief by the Romans. He may have been like Jean Valjean and only stole a loaf of bread, we don't know. But when you hear the conversation between the two men on opposite sides, the one said "If you are the Son of God, why don't you take yourself down off the cross". The other when then said "You don't know what you are saying, this man is innocent, but we deserve what we get". Do you notice here, the thief Jesus pardoned had repented at that moment when he said he deserves it.

That's what Jesus was teaching in His first sermon out of the wilderness "repent, and believe the Gospel, for the kingdom of God is at hand". Well, if all it takes is doing good works and a little faith, then why would Jesus say to repent? And repent from what?

If there is no sin, then there's nothing to repent from. Jesus didn't say here that one had to have faith and He didn't say one had to have good works, He said repent. That was His first command. But what was it then that they knew was not good works? Not feeding the poor? Even to the poor He commanded to repent, because that command was for rich and poor alike.

The woman caught in adultery, He said "Neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more". What was she sinning in that He would tell her to stop sinning in? Getting caught? He showed her grace at that moment, but it was not that she had repented, had faith or did good works. Those men wanted to stone her, brought her to Jesus and He drew on the ground before speaking to them "Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone".

By that statement, it was inferred that they had sin. What was their sin? Wanting to throw stones at her? If that is the case, then why would He also say to the woman to stop sinning? I will leave that up to you to guess what command He was referring to.

So we see that to be saved, one must recognize the need for repentance, as Jesus said, then confess repentance, as Jesus said. But through all of that, what does Jesus recognize as sin, that He has to mention explicitly that they had sin?

Jesus said "You believe in God, believe in me also". So why the assumption then that Jesus would be contradictory to God?

I can only tell you what Jesus said and did, if it is to Jesus you have your faith in His words. His word and first command was "repent". Repent from what? If Jesus mentions sins that we need to repent from, then that kind of makes Jesus the legalist, I would think. Anyway, there's the answer I can give about Jesus and His words.



posted on Nov, 24 2013 @ 06:22 PM
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reply to post by ghostfacekilah00
 


Could you elaborate a bit? Because the only thing that I see changed is the word "hear" to "understand" in Acts 9. The KJV has them both as saying "hear" while both words used in the original Greek also mean "to hear".

Either way, one account says they all fell to the ground, another says that only Paul fell to the ground while the rest "stood speechless". One version says they didn't see the light, another says that they did.

The contradiction is there, you are just choosing to ignore it out of bias.


edit on 24-11-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 24 2013 @ 06:47 PM
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reply to post by WarminIndy
 



Now as far as faith and being saved by works. do you think that one is saved, if only by faith even if he does evil works?


I've already stated my personal belief on being saved on the first page my friend

ALL will be Saved from "Death"

IF you take a look at that thread I go more into detail on the subject...

Faith in God is an amazing thing... but do you actually believe someone that has NO faith in God, yet does his best in life to be a good person will not be "saved"? This person is not doing good works because they know God will be happy... they do them for the sake of being a good person...because they know its right... God does not exist to this person... but do you actually believe he is condemned and God will toss him in hell because of his lack of faith? Is that merciful or loving?

Think of the Poor soul who's had nothing but hardship in his life... has had absolutely no breaks in life... the world has beaten him down and has no faith in anything?

Are they saved?

Lets ask Jesus


Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

And what of the man who's just lost his closest loved one to a tragic illness or an "accident", and blames God... and has lost his faith in God due to his hardship... even curses God before he finally comes to the conclusion that there can not possibly be a God who would take his loved ones from him...

IS he saved?

Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.

you see Paul almost tried to Con people into following him... Even by saying "your deeds are nothing but filthy rags to God" which is again, Just wrong...

Belief doesn't matter... because we will all return home eventually... Even The atheist will return home... and will no longer be an atheist...

There are NO atheists after death... NONE

And that is because we return to what was before this incarnation... spirit

Even a Fool Can not deny what they are Once they see....


edit on 24-11-2013 by Akragon because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 24 2013 @ 07:35 PM
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Akragon
reply to post by WarminIndy
 



Now as far as faith and being saved by works. do you think that one is saved, if only by faith even if he does evil works?


I've already stated my personal belief on being saved on the first page my friend

ALL will be Saved from "Death"

IF you take a look at that thread I go more into detail on the subject...

Faith in God is an amazing thing... but do you actually believe someone that has NO faith in God, yet does his best in life to be a good person will not be "saved"? This person is not doing good works because they know God will be happy... they do them for the sake of being a good person...because they know its right... God does not exist to this person... but do you actually believe he is condemned and God will toss him in hell because of his lack of faith? Is that merciful or loving?

Think of the Poor soul who's had nothing but hardship in his life... has had absolutely no breaks in life... the world has beaten him down and has no faith in anything?

Are they saved?

Lets ask Jesus


Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

And what of the man who's just lost his closest loved one to a tragic illness or an "accident", and blames God... and has lost his faith in God due to his hardship... even curses God before he finally comes to the conclusion that there can not possibly be a God who would take his loved ones from him...

IS he saved?

Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.

you see Paul almost tried to Con people into following him... Even by saying "your deeds are nothing but filthy rags to God" which is again, Just wrong...

Belief doesn't matter... because we will all return home eventually... Even The atheist will return home... and will no longer be an atheist...

There are NO atheists after death... NONE

And that is because we return to what was before this incarnation... spirit

Even a Fool Can not deny what they are Once they see....


edit on 24-11-2013 by Akragon because: (no reason given)


And that is solely left up to God to make that decision, I am not the judge or executioner. I believe that God will reveal Himself to all people, in a way they can understand Him. I understand Him from this manner and it is to my understanding that I should apply what I know, to my life.

But if you are arguing from the Biblical viewpoint, then we have to go on what the Bible says about it. Do the Hindus have faith in the SUPREME BEING that is the ULTIMATE ONE? Yes, they also believe and if the SUPREME ONE is Supreme, then in that supremacy lies both salvation and judgment, in the ultimate sense. Ultimate means everything, and that includes all that would affect mankind. Does the SUPREME ONE teach about a place similar to hell? Yes, we find that also.

But as we believe God is ALL, ONE, SUPREME, even for Jews and Christians, then that would have to include punishment and reward. We can't say God has only nice attributes, because we don't want to see the others, then God would not be the SUPREME ONE. (Capitals because that's what the Hindus would write).

And as this ONE includes mercy and grace as well as judgment and punishment, then in the fullness of that, all would be included, even wisdom and knowledge.

We must think of God in the ultimate sense, and that ultimate includes judgment and salvation. To remove those from our understanding of God does not remove it from God. There is no separateness in God, so we must accept them as part of the ONE.

As you asked what the Bible says, it implies God as never being separate in mercy and judgment. I am not the judge or executioner, it is not my place to say who goes where, that is left to the ULTIMATE KNOWLEDGE.

(Again, Capitalization was not yelling, it was giving reverence to the name).



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