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How does "Faith" save?

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posted on Nov, 23 2013 @ 05:49 PM
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Galatians 2
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified

An interesting debate that has been raging since the days of Christ... Is it Faith alone that saves a person?

Faith is belief of course... a strong "belief" in something...

Defined as "complete trust or confidence in someone or something

Thus Faith in Jesus is what saves a man even without work according to Paul...

The debate between Paul and James is often referred to when people discuss this matter... James said specifically Faith without work is dead faith...

What this argument comes down to is Justification with God... When one stands before his creator will he say "I had Faith in your son"... Perhaps God might say... "where is the evidence of this faith"?

IF one does no good in his life... does not give to others, does not help his fellow man when he/she is in need, will "Faith" be enough in the eyes of the Father?

Here is Paul's answer to this question...

Rom. 4:5,
"But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"

This is not correct... As Jesus once said...

Matthew 25
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

.................

Yet there are those who choose to help who they think is in need of help... and turn their backs on others... These people cast judgement on those who they do not deem worthy of their help.

Just as follows

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

And as usual, Jesus always has the answer....

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

.....................

These are they that have faith yet do not produce evidence of such faith.... IF one believes in Jesus they must also believe in the example he gave us.... To love your brothers and sisters no matter who they are... For God loves and shows mercy to the good and the evil (luke 6:35) And all of his children regardless of who they might be...

Faith alone is simply not enough according to Jesus...

In this Paul is wrong... and James is correct...

Verified by Jesus himself...

Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

There you have it....

Faith alone Is dead Faith even as James said

Do not put your faith in Paul's words my friends...

He did not know Jesus... Did not teach what Jesus Taught... And will only lead you to judgement...


edit on 23-11-2013 by Akragon because: (no reason given)




posted on Nov, 23 2013 @ 06:13 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 


When you think you create at a very small level,when you truly believe that thought you create at level higher in existence and conscience.



posted on Nov, 23 2013 @ 06:13 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 


Do you think that Paul, being colored by his past experience as a Christian-persecuting Pharisee knowingly or unwittingly, sought to undermine the emerging Christian theology?

It reminds me of the saying "to rob Peter to pay Paul".

Paul worked very hard though to hold the emerging church together, and his legalistic interpretation of the work of Christ is for the most part, sound.

So you caught him in a couple of errors, there's no need to demonize him, imho.

And his experience on the Road to Damascus I believe was authentic, or there's no way to explain his sudden conversion, nor his writings and ministry.

Best to stick to the Gospels though, and you'll note how the zealots and fanatics do love to quote Paul from the Bible, without much reference to the words of Jesus, not every one of which may even be authentic, but taken even in part reveal the core of Jesus' teaching and character.

I notice how some people latch on to certain segments of scripture while using it as a type of blunt instrument weapon with which to beat people up, which totally misses the true Spirit of Jesus the person.

Works though aren't really "work" per se, because selfless service is it's own reward, including the recognition and praise from God who will say to those who loved as he commanded "well done my good and faithful servant, well done!" which is the kind of thing that would be music to anyone's ears.

There's a lot of dead "faith" out there though, that's for sure.

But there are a lot of very loving Christians too.

The Parable of the Good Samaritan I think covers it nicely in terms of the one who is moved to compassion over the plight of a complete stranger.

Because there are a lot of hard working "do gooder" Christians out there in the various church communities who are interested in "power" and who's hearts are made of stone.

Good thread. S&F!

NAM



posted on Nov, 23 2013 @ 06:21 PM
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reply to post by NewAgeMan
 


As I've said before my friend... I had no problem with Paul until I came to ATS and found people willing to attempt to counter Jesus with Paul... That shocked me!

And as I read deeper into Pauls writing the errors floated to the surface... and his work became useless to me...

To each their own... I don't know who Paul was as a man...

he might have been a perfectly lovely man...

But his writing leads to error... and judgement of others

So I will always tell people to stick to the Gospels... the rest is NOT needed

Thanks for your reply brother

And though it sounds like it... this is not an attack on Paul...

Only a push towards the truth


edit on 23-11-2013 by Akragon because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 23 2013 @ 06:43 PM
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I'm a Catholic. The Catholic Church very rarely teaches that other Christian denominations are wrong, just that they don't have the fullness of the faith. Many fellow members of the Body of Christ, particularly Protestants, unfortunately are taught that their beliefs are in direct contradiction to Catholicism, even going as far as saying that Catholics will go to Hell for their beliefs. The Catholic Church absolutely believes that you are saved only through faith in Jesus Christ and the sacrifice he made for the forgiveness of sins, but the Church also believes that faith is the fruit of living a life for God, and that faith without works is dead. As James says, even the devils believe. Catholics believe that you will not live a life committing mortal sins against God if you have true faith and a relationship with the God of the Bible and Jesus Christ. You can't just do whatever you want and go to Heaven because you believe your sins will be forgiven. As the OP said, look at the reasons Jesus gives for condemning people to eternal damnation on Judgement Day. Those people had faith. If anyone reading this thinks that Catholic Church doctrine on Grace and Justification is wrong, read the Catechism's explanation of the Church's stance and tell me where you disagree. I'd love to hear rebuttals. There isn't enough discourse between denominations these days. I mean, if you think you're right, shouldn't you be spreading the truth to other people? Remember, Jesus prayed with tears that the Body of Christ would be unified in one Church.

Catechism of the Catholic Church: Grace and Justification www.vatican.va...

Peter Kreeft is a Catholic philosopher who discusses what I am trying to say amazingly. He might very well be a saint. I encourage anyone who wants to understand how a true Catholic should defend their faith to listen to him with an open heart. If you are 100% sure that your denomination is the true Church of Jesus Christ, you should easily be able to rebut his arguments and listening to him should only strengthen your belief that you are in the right church. www.youtube.com...

The peace, love, understanding, joy, hope, etc. of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit to you all.
edit on 23-11-2013 by ghostfacekilah00 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 23 2013 @ 06:55 PM
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reply to post by ghostfacekilah00
 


Thank you for your response my friend...

you might be interested to know I have no denomination, Nor am I "Christian"...

Though I love Jesus just the same

Remember he also said "Those who are not against me are with me"




posted on Nov, 23 2013 @ 07:01 PM
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Akragon
reply to post by ghostfacekilah00
 


Thank you for your response my friend...

you might be interested to know I have no denomination, Nor am I "Christian"...

Though I love Jesus just the same

Remember he also said "Those who are not against me are with me"



Exactly brother. That's the point I'm trying to make. All Christians are with him; Catholics, Lutherans, Baptists, Episcopalians, Orthodox, etc, and we all need to be shining the light for the whole world to see.



posted on Nov, 23 2013 @ 07:07 PM
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The thief on the cross was saved by faith alone.

Jesus did not say, unless you do good works, you won't be saved. He said except you believe in me, you shall die in your sins.

Neither does James say that faith is insufficient. He says that faith will produce outward signs, such as bearing fruit, and loving others in word and deed. WORKS in scripture are NOT our definition of works, but gods definition of works. For the Christian. Works amounts to obedience.

James must be one of the most misunderstood epistles in the bible. You say everyone uses Paul. I say everyone who uses James to contradict Paul, has no understanding of James or Paul.

Paul's writings are no more heretical than any other epistle writer. They each spoke from their perspective. I know you have a disdain for Paul, Akragon, but I think you let your need for confirmation of your bias against him, cloud your ability to be objective. That's not a dig, just an observation.
edit on 11/23/2013 by Klassified because: spelling

edit on 11/23/2013 by Klassified because: more spelling



posted on Nov, 23 2013 @ 07:18 PM
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reply to post by Klassified
 


You make a good point... and perhaps you might be right.

I do not like Pauls writing... but again I also do not need it in any way, shape or form


Jesus did not say, unless you do good works, you won't be saved. He said except you believe in me, you shall die in your sins.


Belief needs an outward expression... or it is nothing

Did he not say YOU are the light of the world... so let your light shine, do not hide it under a bushel?

Matthew 5
14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

The thief on the cross is an example of Gods mercy... In that ALL will be saved from death... because the spirit within is eternal... and does not die

Thank you for your reply my friend

Always a pleasure hearing from you




posted on Nov, 23 2013 @ 08:11 PM
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C. S. Lewis
I gave in, and admitted that God was God.



posted on Nov, 23 2013 @ 08:29 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 


I have to disagree with you also, my friend. Paul was a very smart man and knew exactly what he was talking about. If you do research on Paul, you will find that he could recite the first five books of the bible, forwards and backwards, by the age of thirteen. Paul is like the "Freud of the disciples". Unless you learn Jewish Culture and Jewish History, you may not understand Paul. That is one argument that Peter had with Paul, because you can't tell a layman things that only a scientist would know. You have to come down to a persons level when you speak to them so that they will understand you, instead of talking to them in terms that only you or a genius would understand. Paul has a lot of good things to say, you just have to understand his higher way of thinking.

A lot of people also say that you have to believe in Jesus in order to be saved and that if you are a Jew that doesn't believe in Jesus, you will not be saved. John 1:1 says," In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God". If you understand the Jewish culture, you will also understand that when this verse says," The Word ", it is referring not only to Jesus, but it is also referring to the first five books of the Bible, called " The Torah ". Jesus was the "Word" or as a Jewish person would say " The Torah ". Jesus was the "Living Torah". So, that makes Jesus and the Torah, one in the same. Jews have followed the Torah for thousands of years. They live their lives according to what the Torah tells them to do. So, by following the Torah, the Jews have followed Jesus. A lot of scriptures in the bible are like this. In order to know what the scriptures are talking about, you must learn the Jewish culture and the Jewish History. A lot of Paul's writings are like this also, so don't say that he is going against Jesus or His ways. He is just talking in Jewish terms.



posted on Nov, 23 2013 @ 08:36 PM
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reply to post by UndercoverJoe
 


Instead of creating an argument about this I will just say I disagree with you so the reader might focus on the message in the OP

Jesus was NOT "the torah made flesh"... Nor was he a very good "practicing Jew".. but this is not the point of this thread... The point is for the reader to focus on the message given

Thank you for your reply brother




posted on Nov, 23 2013 @ 08:52 PM
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reply to post by UndercoverJoe
 


Maybe there is things lost in translation or manipulation from others making Pauls writings used as dualistic views towards others. I cannot know what Paul really was but I can see how Christians use Pauls writings to create ego self biased view that they believe are the only truth and judge others by those views.

That is duality and from my point of view, that duality is what the dark one is preaching. Divide and conquer instead of symbiotic behaviour between all where you love your soul brother and soul sister like yourself. And duality is the opposite of what the great teachers Jesus, Rumi, Buddha and Krishna is teaching.

If this is an error on the Christians part then it is probably time for Christians to get a good lesson in how Paul is supposed to be interpreted before they damn themselves by becoming blinded goats.

Sometimes less text is more, since more writings only confuse the true message with opinions.
edit on 23-11-2013 by LittleByLittle because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 23 2013 @ 09:12 PM
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Faith saves the mind of the sinner.

Why do people embrace faith in order to get into heaven, and not to be good on earth. Where faith is not a requirement to be good.

Because they want to get into heaven. Without faith, good people are still good but religious people are punished.

I'd rather be aware of this, than refuse to live among the world...



posted on Nov, 23 2013 @ 09:18 PM
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Klassified
The thief on the cross was saved by faith alone.

Jesus did not say, unless you do good works, you won't be saved. He said except you believe in me, you shall die in your sins.

Neither does James say that faith is insufficient. He says that faith will produce outward signs, such as bearing fruit, and loving others in word and deed. WORKS in scripture are NOT our definition of works, but gods definition of works. For the Christian. Works amounts to obedience.

James must be one of the most misunderstood epistles in the bible. You say everyone uses Paul. I say everyone who uses James to contradict Paul, has no understanding of James or Paul.

Paul's writings are no more heretical than any other epistle writer. They each spoke from their perspective. I know you have a disdain for Paul, Akragon, but I think you let your need for confirmation of your bias against him, cloud your ability to be objective. That's not a dig, just an observation.
edit on 11/23/2013 by Klassified because: spelling

edit on 11/23/2013 by Klassified because: more spelling


I've heard this very argument before. The thief consciously choosing to turn from his wicked ways, cry out against the injustice of crucifying an innocent man, and believing that Jesus is the Son of God is, by definition, a work. Like I said, Catholics don't believe that we disagree on the matter.
edit on 23-11-2013 by ghostfacekilah00 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 23 2013 @ 09:18 PM
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Faith is useful as a tool for manifestation. From my point of view spirit over mind over matter is true and that you are with faith are being able to change the physical quantum universe to be what you believe it should be, within the limitations that your awareness has and the rules of this "what is" (reality can be used as a name for what is but it is probably only a subset of "what is").

For instance we have the placebo effect and the opposite nocebo effect where treatment can both help and harm the patient even when it should not. You have healers who use chi/light that increases relaxing and maybe even creating synchronous fields that makes the very improbable very probable.

The real problem I see with faith is boxed minds/awareness that cannot look outside of the box to see other information that might be useful for greater understanding. For instance Reiki practitioners are told 3 symbols that they believe are needed to increase the chi/light flow and are told to clap their hands. Does the ritual they are told work. Yes it does. It is the only way to do it. No.

I would rather go to a reiki healer that really believes in the symbols than one who does not. The reason being the belief is probably increasing the efficiency the healer to manifest good things for the person getting chi/light.
edit on 23-11-2013 by LittleByLittle because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 23 2013 @ 09:42 PM
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Well said brother, S&F for you.

Paul definitely was a liar, he was a persecutor of Christians before supposedly being converted by Jesus himself. Like Jesus said, bad trees cannot bear good fruit, Paul was a bad tree.



posted on Nov, 23 2013 @ 10:22 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 


To answer your original question...

Faith saves you from insanity when living in a power-hungry, judgmental world.



posted on Nov, 23 2013 @ 10:27 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 

An interesting debate that has been raging since the days of Christ... Is it Faith alone that saves a person?
That debate that Paul was talking about in Galatians was about following the Mosaic Law, including circumcision, which does not by itself make you righteous.
That might seem obvious to us today but it wasn't to the Jewish zealots in Paul's day who were determined not to let their traditions to be set aside.
"The Faith of Jesus" is not the same thing as merely believing in Jesus, but was a way of life, a life of righteousness but by the standards that Jesus taught.



posted on Nov, 23 2013 @ 10:54 PM
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reply to post by Klassified
 


There were two thieves with Christ. One was saved and the other was not. The one who was saved not only had faith, but he was also led to penitence through it. Because he truly believed (had faith) he also saw that what he had done in life was wrong and he took accountability for it. You can see this because of how he chides the other thief who did not have faith and did not accept responsibility for what he had done.



39 One of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at Him, saying, "Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!" 40 But the other answered, and rebuking him said, "Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 "And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong." 42 And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!" 43 And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."
Luke 23: 39-43



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