"Have We Got a Message from ET?" - Three Dress Rehearsals for Contact Online

RedShirt73
Why wouldn't they hide? I'd be hiding if I were them, lol. We're all just a bunch of psychotic monkeys running around killing each other for:

1) #s and giggles
2) Resources
3) Religion
4) Money
5) Power
6) Control
7) All of the above

Truthfully I wouldn't want anything to do with earth or humans if I were them. Too volatile.

You say these things like ET isn't in the same boat as Terrestrial Humans.

ET started as a primitive predator, just like you, yet you think he isn't that Apex predator anymore...

The diagram just given is not the same as the one I described. I specified the largest square that could be drawn inside the space common to the triangle and the circle adjacent to one of its sides, not solely within the triangle. Two corners of the square touch the triangle, the opposite two touch the circle at points on its circumference 60 degrees apart. This chord is the same length as the radius of the circle.

I have now found several references in the literature that show a knowledge of the fact that this chord is the same length as the radius. These have not, as far as I have yet discovered, given this as a means of deriving Pi either as a ratio of circumference or area.
I did not assert than any scientist had accepted the diagram I described as evidence of extraterrestrial intelligence. Dr. Brin rejected it, and the other scientist to whom I referred merely noted that it expressed the Pi ratio as the area of the circle to that of the square by an unfamiliar method, which it apparently does.

reply to post by Ross 54


Draw it!

Old saying: a single picture is worth 10,000 words.

Ross 54
The diagram just given is not the same as the one I described. I specified the largest square that could be drawn inside the space common to the triangle and the circle adjacent to one of its sides, not solely within the triangle. Two corners of the square touch the triangle, the opposite two touch the circle at points on its circumference 60 degrees apart. This chord is the same length as the radius of the circle.

"the largest square that could be drawn inside the space common to the triangle and the circle ..."

You specified that the square must be "inside" the space "common" to both the triangle and the circle. So that would be the "union" of the two sets. which is exactly what I drew.

Sorry for the confusion. I see now how parts of my description of the diagram created a problem.
Picture a 12 hour clock face. That will serve for the circle.
Draw a line from the edge of the circle nearest 12 o clock to the edge nearest 4 o'clock, another line similarly, from 4 to 8 o'clock and another from 8 o'clock back to 12 o'clock. That will serve for the triangle.
Draw a line from the edge nearest 5 o'clock to 7 o'clock. Draw a vertical line from 7 o'clock until it reaches the 8 to 12 o'clock line of the triangle. Draw another vertical line from the 5 o'clock position, until it reaches the 12 o'clock to 4 o'clock line of the triangle. Connect the tops of the vertical lines with a horizontal line. That will serve for the square

Ross 54
Sorry for the confusion. I see now how parts of my description of the diagram created a problem.
Picture a 12 hour clock face. That will serve for the circle.
Draw a line from the edge of the circle nearest 12 o clock to the edge nearest 4 o'clock, another line similarly, from 4 to 8 o'clock and another from 8 o'clock back to 12 o'clock. That will serve for the triangle.
Draw a line from the edge nearest 5 o'clock to 7 o'clock. Draw a vertical line from 7 o'clock until it reaches the 8 to 12 o'clock line of the triangle. Draw another vertical line from the 5 o'clock position, until it reaches the 12 o'clock to 4 o'clock line of the triangle. Connect the tops of the vertical lines with a horizontal line. That will serve for the square

edit on 6-12-2013 by Ross 54 because: added clarifying phrases

I "see" what you're sayin', but, do you see how almost counter-initiative that is? Even your most recent description in rather convoluted. If One didn't see where points on the triangle and the circle were equidistant, this might go un-noticed. However, it is far from an accident that the set of points that lie on both the triangle and circle and are equidistant are also the radius of the circle.

MissBeck
reply to post by JadeStar

 

Wow! More food for thought! You know, until I discovered ATS, I lived in my own bubble, and didn't take much notice of what is going on in the world (and space), but now my mind is being blown away with 'What ifs?' and things I hadn't really thought about.

Thanks. That's why I brought this up. I was going to post it in the Science forum but thought it fit this one more since it was speculative in nature and involved "aliens".

Great thread. Will watch this one with interest. And of course, be alert of any ET 'Friend Requests' on Facebook!

Only kidding. Thanks for sharing.

Hehe, I get enough unsolicited friend requests as it is! Though if I were to get one from an alien, they'd get approved right away! I know some people who would like to talk to them.

tanka418

Ross 54
Sorry for the confusion. I see now how parts of my description of the diagram created a problem.
Picture a 12 hour clock face. That will serve for the circle.
Draw a line from the edge of the circle nearest 12 o clock to the edge nearest 4 o'clock, another line similarly, from 4 to 8 o'clock and another from 8 o'clock back to 12 o'clock. That will serve for the triangle.
Draw a line from the edge nearest 5 o'clock to 7 o'clock. Draw a vertical line from 7 o'clock until it reaches the 8 to 12 o'clock line of the triangle. Draw another vertical line from the 5 o'clock position, until it reaches the 12 o'clock to 4 o'clock line of the triangle. Connect the tops of the vertical lines with a horizontal line. That will serve for the square

edit on 6-12-2013 by Ross 54 because: added clarifying phrases

I "see" what you're sayin', but, do you see how almost counter-initiative that is? Even your most recent description in rather convoluted. If One didn't see where points on the triangle and the circle were equidistant, this might go un-noticed. However, it is far from an accident that the set of points that lie on both the triangle and circle and are equidistant are also the radius of the circle.

The advantage of my latest description of the diagram is that it enables easy duplication by anyone who's interested, to whatever level of accuracy they can manage.
I made a large version of the diagram, took some care with it, and found that the side of the square is so near to matching the radius of the circle that any discrepancy could well be due to the inaccuracy of my own drafting.

At least one scientifically trained person with a good grasp of mathematics noticed the Pi ratio in this diagram without being prompted at all, so I guess it's not totally obscure.
I shouldn't expect that the position of the construction points on this diagram would be 'accidental'. There should be some sense that all the shapes are related to one another, and to Pi.
It may be that we're not going to be furnished with almost undeniable evidence of extraterrestrial intelligence, such as their huge space ships hovering low over major cities for hours or days at a time.
Offering subtle, harmless things like new, yet basic geometrical ideas may be the preferred method, given our current state of development, and rampant Xenophobia.

Ross 54
It may be that we're not going to be furnished with almost undeniable evidence of extraterrestrial intelligence, such as their huge space ships hovering low over major cities for hours or days at a time.

Offering subtle, harmless things like new, yet basic geometrical ideas may be the preferred method, given our current state of development, and rampant Xenophobia.

I often wonder IF y'all understand "Why" ET won't just "hover over a city", or land on the White House Lawn.

Offering "new" ideas like this one isn't very practical either. Have you ever "wondered" how Pi was discovered? You are aware that most discoveries like this happen out of necessity, kind of like all inventions. There is a solid "practical" need for the "object" when it is discovered or invented.

Novel methods, like this one, usually go unnoticed because there is no driving practical need for the method. Ya know...this whole thing strikes me as yet another math trick like the proof that 1 + 1 = 3.

Oh, and JadeStar...here is a wee prediction for ya and Dr. Tough:

In the Habitable Zone of Zeta 2 Reticuli is an "Earth like" object (planet or moon) that is a "Water World". It shouldn't take you too long to verify that, perhaps I'll still be around (I'm 66...so...no matter how ya slice it; I'm short).

tanka418

Ross 54
It may be that we're not going to be furnished with almost undeniable evidence of extraterrestrial intelligence, such as their huge space ships hovering low over major cities for hours or days at a time.

Offering subtle, harmless things like new, yet basic geometrical ideas may be the preferred method, given our current state of development, and rampant Xenophobia.

I often wonder IF y'all understand "Why" ET won't just "hover over a city", or land on the White House Lawn.

Offering "new" ideas like this one isn't very practical either. Have you ever "wondered" how Pi was discovered? You are aware that most discoveries like this happen out of necessity, kind of like all inventions. There is a solid "practical" need for the "object" when it is discovered or invented.

Novel methods, like this one, usually go unnoticed because there is no driving practical need for the method. Ya know...this whole thing strikes me as yet another math trick like the proof that 1 + 1 = 3.

Oh, and JadeStar...here is a wee prediction for ya and Dr. Tough:

In the Habitable Zone of Zeta 2 Reticuli is an "Earth like" object (planet or moon) that is a "Water World". It shouldn't take you too long to verify that, perhaps I'll still be around (I'm 66...so...no matter how ya slice it; I'm short).

It isn't clear to me that anyone really knows why extraterrestrials, if in the immediate vicinity of Earth, don't give an overt and obvious demonstration of their presence.
Various reasons have been suggested, or advocated. These range from lack of interest in us, on their part (as in the anthill metaphor), to the idea that we are being gradually prepared for open contact, but are not yet ready for it.

The former can be objected to on the grounds that some space-faring species could be near enough our own level of development to allow us to be interesting to them. The latter can be criticized as being unconfirmable, as long a certain ambiguity is intentionally maintained by the ETs.
I don't suppose that a new way of obtaining the Pi ratio is practical, in the narrow sense discussed, though I don't think it comparable to a sophistical trick that 'proves' that 1 + 1 = 3 . If it could help solve the problem we've set ourselves, of determining the presence and nature of extraterrestrial intelligence, it still might be useful, in a sense.

Ross 54
It isn't clear to me that anyone really knows why extraterrestrials, if in the immediate vicinity of Earth, don't give an overt and obvious demonstration of their presence.
Various reasons have been suggested, or advocated. These range from lack of interest in us, on their part (as in the anthill metaphor), to the idea that we are being gradually prepared for open contact, but are not yet ready for it.

Anthill metaphor eh? Ya know that is perhaps the all time worse bit of logic any terrestrial has ever produced. Any ET that advanced is no longer space-faring, and is completing the final stages leading to Ascension.

Logic would seem to want ET to be barely more advanced, and be wholly local in origin.

It seems that most don't understand that the motives of ET are the very same mundane motives that most Terrestrials have.

by the way; the reason that ET doesn't make "wide area contact" is that such an act would be considered an act of war. One does not introduce themselves to another they wish to get along with by first putting him in the hospital. When One wishes to be "friends" the amount of energy and "fire" is toned down to allow for a peaceful introduction.

I don't suppose that a new way of obtaining the Pi ratio is practical, in the narrow sense discussed, though I don't think it comparable to a sophistical trick that 'proves' that 1 + 1 = 3 . If it could help solve the problem we've set ourselves, of determining the presence and nature of extraterrestrial intelligence, it still might be useful, in a sense.

And, you do understand that this method IS NOT a method for finding Pi. Pi is very specifically; the ratio of the diameter of a circle to its circumference. Not the ratio of two areas. The example used only works because a point on the parameter of the triangle that is equidistant to the adjacent side and the circumference of the circle is also equal to the radius of the circle.

No actually I think it is kind of like that wee trick. Its all in the point where the square's corners are. lots of squares are possible, only one works. In the math trick; it's an identity that provides the extra value. And, its not "clear" where the points actually go.

eta: Oh yeah; lots of information that will lead to the correct solution; the wrong/long way around.

eta: ET discovered the value of Pi the very same way Terrestrials did.

It seems a remarkable claim to assert that extraterrestrials must understand Pi in just the same way we do. It implies a remarkable insight into ET thinking processes and culture, and a sure knowledge that they think very much as we do. To borrow an apt phrase from JadeStar: and you know this how?
What may seem to us the 'wrong' or 'long way around' to get at Pi might recommend itself to other intelligences for reasons of which we are not even aware.
Pi turns up in area as well as linear definitions. We have the familiar formula: A (area of a circle) = Pi times r 2 (the radius squared). Perhaps the original diagram is better understood as a novel way of getting the graphical equivalent of this formula, rather than a definition of Pi, per se. In any case, it contains a depiction of the Pi ratio, and arrives at this, and at the area of the circle in relation to the square, without reference to the radius of the circle, as such.
Yes, lots of squares are possible, and only one works in the original diagram. It seems, then, a remarkable coincidence that the correct square was selected to depict the Pi ratio, and the area of the circle in relation to the square, merely by accident. It seem that someone knew just where the points should go, in order to accomplish this.

Ross 54
It seems a remarkable claim to assert that extraterrestrials must understand Pi in just the same way we do. It implies a remarkable insight into ET thinking processes and culture, and a sure knowledge that they think very much as we do. To borrow an apt phrase from JadeStar: and you know this how?

Again: "The number π is a mathematical constant that is the ratio of a circle's circumference to its diameter"

It appears that you are confusing the definition of Pi with its value. I am very sure I can find many instances where the "result" is 3.1415... that are not in anyway connected to the circle.

"I know this how?" Logic Read the definition of Pi, just haw many different instances can you think of that might require that? The number is actually quite limited and virtually ALL of them can be seen in ancient Terrestrial architecture. ET would have discovered Pi in much the same way at pretty much the same stage of evolution. Or, did ET somehow "magically" skip having to evolve into what he is today?

So, no, the claim isn't so remarkable after all. Y'all keep thinking that ET got to where he is by magic or something, perhaps God created ET that way. Rather than presuming that ET has to get to where he is the same way you are getting there, and have gotten to where you are now; evolution.

All of the trials, tribulations, issues, problems, wars, poverty, hunger, savage behavior toward their own, every bit of the "primitive" behavior you attribute only to yourselves, has been experienced by ET thousands of times over. And will continue to be experienced somewhere by someone.