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"Have We Got a Message from ET?" - Three Dress Rehearsals for Contact Online

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posted on Nov, 24 2013 @ 11:22 AM
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It seems that Dr. Tough and his colleagues fairly and reasonably examined the three ET claims mentioned in the linked article. They did not dismiss the claimants as delusional, either before, during or after their inquiries.

A forth claim, by itself a subject of a brief paper by Dr. Paul Shuch, was approached with a similar attitude. Unfortunately, financial considerations apparently prevented the sort of exhaustive technical testing that would have been more conclusive.

I suspect that we must indeed be ready, in a sense, before we can perceive the subtle sort of ET messages that might already have been offered. A certain unusual mental flexibility may be required.
It may be that the application of the principle of Occam's Razor, the preference for the simplest explanation that covers the known facts, may not always be so reliable when applied to the behavior of extraterrestrial entities. Even human behavior does not always follow the simplest, most direct, or obvious path. How much more so might this be, in the case of extraterrestrials, whose psychology is essentially unknown to us.
This approach might have been useful in the instance of the claim that Dr. David Brin entertained for a while.
It could be argued that the novel geometrical diagram described to him was poor evidence of extraterrestrial intelligence. A human being might have devised it, even though no one in the very long period from Euclid, onward seems to have done so.
Further, it might be asked: Why meddle around with equivocal 'messages' like this instead of an open, overt announcement, and a proof like the prime factorization of a number too large for humans to manage?
Perhaps our potential ET communicants think it better to use a more subtle approach in beginning to converse with us, a primitive and frequently xenophobic species.
edit on 24-11-2013 by Ross 54 because: improved paragraph structure

edit on 24-11-2013 by Ross 54 because: improved paragraph structure




posted on Nov, 24 2013 @ 11:27 AM
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Great thread JadeStar. The kind that keeps me coming back to ATS. That website (IETI's) contained some of the most interesting material I've read in months. So thanks!

Excellent followup discussion and links, too. I happen to be one of those who's less forgiving of mainstream SETI scientists' treatment of the UFO topic, but your comments are thorough, well-reasoned and thought-provoking -- an important reminder of the tightrope they must walk and the inherent difficulty of their situation.



posted on Nov, 24 2013 @ 11:31 AM
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reply to post by JadeStar
 


A horrible and boring link in the OP. If "I" were an off worlder , that wall of text would have made me turn tail and run! A good idea, but a very obsolete format to entice ET to actually jump in and read or reply.



posted on Nov, 24 2013 @ 11:33 AM
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reply to post by Ross 54
 


And considering if a whole fleet of them would just appear in the sky, it would be a mess on Earth!

They know this so have to go about it another way or many different ways to not cause any panic!

I would have to say it is considered a Respectful, Peacefull way of doing things! Some whould turn this around and say they are scoping us out too!

Except the idea of a whole fleet, who might have more fire power then the Sun and could overtake us just by showing themselves and would have to do actually nothing while we would cause more damage to ourselves then they would.

Peace



posted on Nov, 24 2013 @ 12:40 PM
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Riffrafter

It's very good to hear that he seems to be both intelligent & responsible. This area of study really needs a lot more of that than we've been getting.

There's also some personal synchronicity with both the AI topic and SETI which I'll mention in a bit.


There is, and its becoming clearer every day as people talk of a convergence or singularity. The joke in SETI circles is that the first day that our computers become intelligent to the point of self-awarness is the day they also reveal to us where ET is and how it is communicating.




That's also good to hear. Makes no sense to work in a vacuum when others are on a parallel path.


Exactly. We're all dealing with an unknown and no one knows where that contact will come from or in what way so 100 minds are better than just a few. It also makes for a good cross pollination of search strategies.



I actually did some work at NASA Ames years ago (love those blimp hangars!).


I know right! They're amazing!

I attended an undergrad workshop there and was amazed. I got a chill down my spine when we were told, "some of you may be working here in a few years." That will be wonderful!


As a matter of fact, our offices were located right across the street from NASA Ames and literally right next door (in the same building) as SETI's HQ office. It was a brand new complex and we both were among the first tenants in there. Address was 1945 Landings Drive, Mtn View CA. I think they're long gone from that facility now (be surprised if Adobe didn't take it over as they were right next door and growing like crazy).


Actually the SETI Institute's HQ is still in Mountain View, CA but you're right, they did move into an a new place: 189 Bernardo Ave, Suite 100 just off Central Expressway.

And b6 Adobe did you mean Google? Cause that old place is now surrounded by Google buildings. It wouldn't shock me if their move was necessitated due to the ever expanding blob of from cyberspace that is the Googleplex.


I was working in the AI research field at the time and spent some time with some of the SETI folks (informally mostly - lunch, etc) talking about our respective work and how they might complement each other. If there was ever a field where task-specific AI could be used effectively, it was SETI. Problem was they didn't have the budget or the personnel to really make that happen, and the commercially available AI software & tools at the time ('90-'93) required an awful lot of work to develop even a basic expert system, which was probably the easiest and best understood domain of AI software at the time.
And that's a shame because I believe SETI was still a publicly funded entity at that time.


You are correct. The were still being run out of NASA as the High Resolution Microwave Survey in those days. But even when they were a government program they had a very lean budget and were under attack by people like Sen. Proxmire in Congress who misunderstood their work, confusing it with UFO research, etc.

Its kind of sad because like you said, if they had a respectable budget in those days they could have done so much more including the use of expert systems AI such as you worked on. And the use of AI in SETI did begin with Project Phoenix. Their cross correlation with the RFI database is essentially an expert system as is their followup system (totally automated now). But so much more could be done in the case of actually looking for weaker signals in the noise or pulling signal from what might be ultra high bandwidth data of some sort we don't recognize (which essentially could resemble noise).



and I know for a *fact* that there were a lot of different branches of gov't that had far advanced AI capabilities & software to say nothing of an almost endless budget.


Of course. And they likely had 3 digit acronyms for names. This is the kind of thing that grinds me. I posted a thread over in the science forum about one such disheartening experience I had while discussing the kind of optics for the New Worlds Explorer space telescope with a notable exoplanet researcher who basically said the stuff I was thinking about already has been developed in the black budget world and we might not get to play with it for another 30 years...

Here's the thread if you didn't see it already: www.abovetopsecret.com...



But you know gov't - especially some of the black budget folks - they do not like to share. And what they had was NOT commercially available. But I can't complain too much, they provided my family & I with a very nice living for many years.


That's how it is isn't it? Idealism and altruism goes out the window when there are bills to be paid and and mouths to be fed. I don't blame you one bit for not complaining. Those are lucrative contracts.

I just wish they would share some of the non-essential stuff. They are classification crazy in my opinion but what do I know? I'm just an undergrad full of fire and fury. I don't know how much I'll be able to "rock the boat" when I am doing this stuff for a living.



There are so many reasons AI should be used in this search but that's a topic for another thread or post.


Maybe we should open that discussion in the Science or Space forum? I've already seen one complaint here that the original post was "boring"

"Here we are now... entertain us...."

I guess because it had nothing to do with fake UFO videos or ascribing mysticism and legitimacy to fake "ancient alien" artifacts it was boring.

To that person I'd say, move on. The real search for aliens is both more diverse and interesting than standing in a field looking for strange lights. But if they can't comprehend that......




I've heard of this initiative and wholeheartedly support it. And speaking of "black budget" type things, if he could get *all* of the "un-retouched" images from the Navy's "Clementine" mission, it would probably be a very short search.


I thought about that. I always thought that mission was an interesting use of US Navy funds. Testing sensors out on the moon to observe the Earth...... ok.


Takes conspiratorial hat off.

Presumably if Clementine found artifacts on the moon then the same artifacts would be in the LRO imagery no? I sometimes wonder if Dr. Davies is privy to some information that there is something worth finding there and thats why he wants to crowdsource it: To get as many of the general public on the hunt as a sort of "insurance policy" as well as because the moon is a very big place with a ton of imagery at that scale.



Not sure how familiar you are with that mission but there's a lot of info on ATS about it if you do a search for it. You might want to pay particularly close attention to threads and posts by Zorgon on this topic. He had an amazing amount of knowledge & research in this area, and a great mind and writing style too.


I'm pretty familiar with it. It was a joint NASA/US Navy mission which launched when I was little. Can you point me to one of Zorgon's threads about it?



Thanks for detailed response and links/vids. I'm going to watch them later tonight. I love this stuff!


You're welcome. I'll keep them coming

edit on 24-11-2013 by JadeStar because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 24 2013 @ 12:40 PM
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antar
reply to post by JadeStar
 


A horrible and boring link in the OP. If "I" were an off worlder , that wall of text would have made me turn tail and run! A good idea, but a very obsolete format to entice ET to actually jump in and read or reply.


This is not a TV show. There is a serious search for aliens going on but it is nothing like what you have been fed on TV and in pop culture and thus to you, "boring".

"Here we are now, entertain us...."



posted on Nov, 24 2013 @ 12:53 PM
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Ross 54
It seems that Dr. Tough and his colleagues fairly and reasonably examined the three ET claims mentioned in the linked article. They did not dismiss the claimants as delusional, either before, during or after their inquiries.

A forth claim, by itself a subject of a brief paper by Dr. Paul Shuch, was approached with a similar attitude. Unfortunately, financial considerations apparently prevented the sort of exhaustive technical testing that would have been more conclusive.

I suspect that we must indeed be ready, in a sense, before we can perceive the subtle sort of ET messages that might already have been offered. A certain unusual mental flexibility may be required.
It may be that the application of the principle of Occam's Razor, the preference for the simplest explanation that covers the known facts, may not always be so reliable when applied to the behavior of extraterrestrial entities.


And if that is the case then that is a huge issue. If one throws Occam's Razor out of the window then what could possibly replace it as a check and balance against blind faith?

Its a slippery slope, I always liked Carl Sagans quote: "Science is a way of keeping us from fooling ourselves." So if we throw one of the basic tenants of a rational approach to the unknown out of the window, something else equally good at separating fact from fiction would need to take its place.

Any suggestions what that might be?

Think about it like this: One of the "ETs" that Dr Tough was communicating with claimed to be using a human being as a "channel". Ok fair enough, and Dr Tough kept communicating with him however he never threw Occam's Razor out the window because what would he have been left with? A good, yet unverifiable story and nothing else. That hardly would be evidence of anything other than a lapse in judgement by him.

Sound familiar?

Change the word ET to demon, angel, incubus, succubus, elf, leprechaun or any other supernatural or para-topic.

By throwing out Occam's Razor one risks relegating the whole serious search for ETs to searching for angels, demons, elves, etc. It becomes less about science and evidence and more about faith and superstition.

So what would we be left with in the case of "success" with that approach? Another new age religion most likely.




Even human behavior does not always follow the simplest, most direct, or obvious path. How much more so might this be, in the case of extraterrestrials, whose psychology is essentially unknown to us.
This approach might have been useful in the instance of the claim that Dr. David Brin entertained for a while.
It could be argued that the novel geometrical diagram described to him was poor evidence of extraterrestrial intelligence. A human being might have devised it, even though no one in the very long period from Euclid, onward seems to have done so.
Further, it might be asked: Why meddle around with equivocal 'messages' like this instead of an open, overt announcement, and a proof like the prime factorization of a number too large for humans to manage?
Perhaps our potential ET communicants think it better to use a more subtle approach in beginning to converse with us, a primitive and frequently xenophobic species.
edit on 24-11-2013 by Ross 54 because: improved paragraph structure

edit on 24-11-2013 by Ross 54 because: improved paragraph structure


I can understand the subtle, softly, softly approach to contact from "their" perspective however they still could produce some knowledge undeniably alien, outside of our knowledge base but which could be easily verified if not right away, in the not too distant future.

That's kind of what Dr. Tough and his colleague's approach was. He was open to a "channeled entity" so long as it could provide some information that was testable and outside of our scope of knowledge.



posted on Nov, 24 2013 @ 01:06 PM
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By the way, the reason I post stuff like this is not to be "boring" but rather to open up some possibilities perhaps not considered.

There is a firewall between the UFO crowd and the SETI/Exobiology crowd for good reason, however the two actually need each other even if they do not realize it yet.

I study the UFO subject because when contact really does occur the general public's perception will be heavily colored by what they have been exposed to through pop-culture and the UFO subject is a cultural heavyweight in terms of a filter the average person may see contact through.

Knowing the hopes, fears, suspicions, etc of the general public with regards to the UFO subject (regardless of the fact that 90-95 percent of UFOs are easily explainable) gives the people who may actually find real aliens some insight into the psyche of people so that the announcement of contact could be crafted with that in mind.

Handling the tone and manner in which the news is put out will be essential to a post-contact world which will have far more questions than answers.

It is highly likely that most of the stuff the general public will want to know will be unanswerable. ie: What do the aliens look like? Are they friendly, hostile or indifferent? Do they have religion? How much further along is their technology?

Those will likely be unanswerable for quite awhile beyond initial detection of say, alien city lights on the night side of an exoplanet or an artificially produced laser or radio signal coming from one.

What fills the gap in absence of information in a time of high emotion?

Popular myth. UFOs and hollywood aliens will fill the void until we have concrete answers.

Likewise, the UFO crowd is looking for legitimacy. The day after contact, I fully expect people to be proclaiming that it "proves" any number of UFO encounters, and who knows, perhaps one of them will be right.



posted on Nov, 24 2013 @ 01:23 PM
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Hey? I'm still waiting on other ways in how if any could be done to learn this info.

Now as far as I have heard. Was not seti not closed down due to funding? Here we just might have gotten a message and now the funding stopped. God knows what else happen after they stepped in though.

For one, if anything can be done. One must fund itself without the Gov's money! Next knowing some spy would come and see whats going on, or some fool would sell out the info for a price. Being said, in what other ways can this been done?

Really though, if possible if someone could speak to them and actually get the info and post it completely on the internet using their tech, it would be harder to cover up. Notwithstanding using consideration on the part of the People on Earth.

You would either have to do it slowly or let the cat free from the bag! God forbit the dogs come out to play!

No one wants the concept of what they thought was real to find out later it was all a small lie! It would break down everything, people would go into Ego mode, while some would actually say its about time!

Any ideas on this?

Peace



posted on Nov, 24 2013 @ 01:53 PM
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reply to post by JadeStar
 



Think about it like this: One of the "ETs" that Dr Tough was communicating with claimed to be using a human being as a "channel"
My, that must be a new avenue for communications


Its rumored the US military is face to face communicating. I suppose that is a step in the right direction.

You speak of a respectful approach to contact. Sure, I suppose that would be nice. But before everyone starts running off with the idea of what we can get from them, how about "They" start the story off from the beginning. All of the attempts at communicating are taken out of context and spread out over the internet.

I think the logical place to start isn't with rocket science, advanced AI, interstellar travel, time warping, or anything else to do with "Technology".

How about just starting at the beginning? Hello Mr & Mrs Alien, I have just a few questions for you, care to share?

1.I understand there is only two real classifications of "Aliens", of the flesh, and out of the flesh. And since you stand before me, of the flesh, I know which you are.

2. Can you share with us your history on this planet, or any other planets. Your complete species history.

3. Can you clear up some of the misconceptions of the past? All the names of other "Alien" species that they are known by, and of course other names your species has been known by?

4. In a manner of speaking, hiding yourselves from humanity, I think at its core, is somewhat, well, rude and disrespectful. Though I'm certain you may have had other considerations for this concealment. Would you mind sharing them with us?

5. It is understandable why you do not make your contact publicly and through established channels, "Take us to your leader". Could you share with us attempts in the past where you have tried and how you were met? And can you explain why you think the official channels met you in such a manner?

You understand, the simple, honest, way, is the right way. At least in my humble opinion....



posted on Nov, 24 2013 @ 01:56 PM
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JadeStar
Something tells me this ET didn't make contact with Dr. Tough's group, or if they did they actually were one of the people who turned out to be a hoaxer pretending to be ET.



What makes you believe that Dr. Tough would release any contact data he collects to the public?



As "spirits" right?
Sorry, that's not falsifiable therefore its not science.


No, not as "spirits". Have you given any thought into the probability of actually meeting ET? Its far better than most think.

Please understand some of "how" I arrive at the things I do...I apply statistics and probability to the questions of astronomy, astrobiology, biology, and almost any other science when required. I analyze data from these sciences with a bit of a different "twist", not as a specific science analysis, but as a computer or data scientist. It allows me a somewhat different insight into the data; most of what I do, report, is based on data behavior, not on "astronomy".

The "data" says ET may live next door literally...as in "on world". Probability suggests that if I, or you were to walk down a busy street in a large city; we would be within feet of an extraterrestrial. And, of course, never be aware.

Doing the "math" says ET is already here. it also strongly suggests that ET isn't all that advanced. Just being able to cross a few light years doesn't take technology greater than Earth already has. It just takes the "balls" to actually do it.

There is existing science and new science that has the whole artificial gravity / gravity drive thing handled. There is emerging science that will open up greater distance. There are "exploits" to handle relativity, and thus little reason that Terrestrial Humans couldn't travel within...say 25 light years with relative little difficulty. These machines can be built today with virtually all "off the shelf" technologies.

You really need to remember that Lorentz is you very good friend.


edit on 24-11-2013 by tanka418 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 24 2013 @ 02:01 PM
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JadeStar
What would be the motive behind hiding?

The motive for ETs to want to remain in hiding is probably the same motive that our scientists have for wanting to remain hidden from the animals that they are studying in the wild.



posted on Nov, 24 2013 @ 02:15 PM
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tanka418

JadeStar
Something tells me this ET didn't make contact with Dr. Tough's group, or if they did they actually were one of the people who turned out to be a hoaxer pretending to be ET.



What makes you believe that Dr. Tough would release any contact data he collects to the public?


Tinfoil hat time?

Because he would like a Nobel Prize and funding, like any one else in this field. Research grants aren't exactly falling out of the sky to study ET in a pre-contact world.

After contact, you can bet they will be.

Not to mention, the whole act of verifying an actual contact involves a bunch of people (in Toughs case 100 or so), any one of them could leak the discovery if it was a solid one if Dr. Tough for some reason chose to keep quiet.






No, not as "spirits". Have you given any thought into the probability of actually meeting ET? Its far better than most think.

Please understand some of "how" I arrive at the things I do...I apply statistics and probability to the questions of astronomy, astrobiology, biology, and almost any other science when required. I analyze data from these sciences with a bit of a different "twist", not as a specific science analysis, but as a computer or data scientist. It allows me a somewhat different insight into the data; most of what I do, report, is based on data behavior, not on "astronomy".


Garbage in, garbage out. You have to be careful what data you are inputting and your reasons for excluding other data. Is there a bias? How do you know? How do you self-check? Who else reviews your work?

Stuff like that is very important to hash out before drawing any conclusions.



The "data" says ET may live next door literally...as in "on world".


This is where most people will ask you for evidence. I won't do that however I would ask that you give the "signal path" at how you arrived at that conclusion.



Probability suggests that if I, or you were to walk down a busy street in a large city; we would be within feet of an extraterrestrial. And, of course, never be aware.


Well that I could see if we're talking about nanoscale ET technology but somehow I think you're referring to sci-fi like "they walk among us" as people.



Doing the "math" says ET is already here. it also strongly suggests that ET isn't all that advanced. Just being able to cross a few light years doesn't take technology greater than Earth already has.


Um, that IS advanced.



It just takes the "balls" to actually do it.


Well, no female aliens need apply then. Got it.

Actually you're wrong, it takes energy. A whole lot of it.

Energy that we perhaps COULD muster but only in the most crude way to get to the stars in trips that would take decades.

Ok, so let us suppose we did this, we mustered the world's total energy output and took off at half the speed of light, went to say, Gliese 581 and found one of their planets inhabited.

You're proposing ETs would then a) set up a base of some sort on their world b) change their biology to look like or project images of themselves to look like the natives and c) fly brightly lit craft through their skies while trying to hide from them at the same time.

Do you see the logical inconsistencies here.



There is existing science and new science that has the whole artificial gravity / gravity drive thing handled. There is emerging science that will open up greater distance. There are "exploits" to handle relativity, and thus little reason that Terrestrial Humans couldn't travel within...say 25 light years with relative little difficulty. These machines can be built today with virtually all "off the shelf" technologies.


Really? Care to run down to the local Radio Shack and start work on your warp drive or Mr. Fusion? Because your name will go down in history and you will win a Nobel Prize if you do.


You really need to remember that Lorentz is you very good friend.


Indeed, but you need to keep Occam's Razor close at hand as well.



posted on Nov, 24 2013 @ 02:17 PM
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reply to post by All Seeing Eye
 


One way of asking a whole lot of questions knowing most of them you will not get an answere.

I would more likely ask them what it is they need to know! Invite them over for dinner, hang out with them, show my interests and ask about theirs.

More then likely they would be looking around the house like a 2 year old wondering what is this! Or they might shake their heads at the stupid ideas we place values on.

You would have to have understanding as a child would have. Could you just see some I know it all talking to them, asking crazy questions that have no value? Not to say your questions don't have any values, just what ever happened to meeting someone new and let it go at that?

You would get more understanding that way, learn something from them too! Most of the questions could be answered by themselves or if something does come to mind; being confused, explain it so they can understand.

Now if one has to question, just look at the crop circles! Some have been made by man yet the ones that are not have to do with an higher understanding of lang, so they might not be able to speak like we do. Using symbles, even tellpathic could be used. Who knows really.

Peace



posted on Nov, 24 2013 @ 02:33 PM
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infoseeker26754
Hey? I'm still waiting on other ways in how if any could be done to learn this info.

Now as far as I have heard. Was not seti not closed down due to funding?


Well it depends on what you mean. There is the branch of astrobiology known as SETI, which is a science and then there are various SETI programs around the world.

In the mid 1990s NASA's SETI program had its funding withdrawn by Congress, the people involved with it formed the small private research organization called the SETI Institute (www.seti.org) to continue the work.

The SETI Institute is one of many such groups and individuals around the world doing science projects which revolve around studying these issues of contact, looking for what is detectable, etc.

The SETI Institute operates the Allen Telescope Array and yes, they did run out of funding a couple of years ago so they had to shut down their search for a period of time but other activities of the SETI institute which they get different grants for, carried on.

For example, a fair amount of people at the SETI Institute also work with the Kepler people as well as other SETI, exoplanet and astrobiology researchers around the world. There is a ton of cross interaction between these different groups.

So while one SETI experiment (the Allen Telescope Array) briefly shut down due to funding issues SETI science both at the institute and elsewhere around the world carried on.

SETI@Home for example is a separate project from the SETI Institute. There are programs in Italy, Australia, and elsewhere that also do SETI who were not affected by the funding shortfall in Mountain View, CA.



Here we just might have gotten a message and now the funding stopped. God knows what else happen after they stepped in though.


Well the people of Dr. Tough's group continued working, as most of their main work involves non-SETI activities. BTW: There was no message. There were some hoaxes that pretended to be a message but they were found out. But even with the hoaxes, the search continues.



For one, if anything can be done. One must fund itself without the Gov's money!


Most SETI work is funded privately through donations. That's one reason why most of these people have other jobs beyond just SETI work.


BTW: You too can help them look for alien signals or find planets around other stars.

Check out www.setilive.org... and www.planethunters.org...

PlanetHunters.org people already found two planets! Who says the average person can't do good science these days?

edit on 24-11-2013 by JadeStar because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 24 2013 @ 02:48 PM
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reply to post by JadeStar
 


Now thats where I will sent my money to!

All of them Faked? Bummer though.

it would seem they would have to be cross breeding going on here on Earth!



One way to actually get involved with the scope of things. Exsplains all the pills, spraying, and the like going on. Here on Earth some do not want to lose any control at any cost!

Things would have to change. I for one would not mind if things changed. We could become People again!

Peace



posted on Nov, 24 2013 @ 04:58 PM
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reply to post by infoseeker26754
 



You would have to have understanding as a child would have. Could you just see some I know it all talking to them, asking crazy questions that have no value? Not to say your questions don't have any values, just what ever happened to meeting someone new and let it go at that?
Child like curiosity? Certainly! Patience? Obviously! Questions? Naturally!

Let it go at that? Lets see, how would that dinner go in your mind? So, your from a undisclosed society that is ahead of anything we presently have by eons?, that's nice, please pass the salt and pepper...... With a smile..........

Wait a minute, I seem to remember something about it being "Rude" to ask questions. Is this one of those areas where patience is called for? After all, our culture does not consider it rude, unless the other party has something to hide. Namely, politicians LOL LOL LOL



posted on Nov, 24 2013 @ 05:12 PM
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JadeStar
Tinfoil hat time?

Because he would like a Nobel Prize and funding, like any one else in this field. Research grants aren't exactly falling out of the sky to study ET in a pre-contact world.

After contact, you can bet they will be.

Not to mention, the whole act of verifying an actual contact involves a bunch of people (in Toughs case 100 or so), any one of them could leak the discovery if it was a solid one if Dr. Tough for some reason chose to keep quiet.


So...a government like the U.S. doesn't have the resources to silence 100 people...over night?




Garbage in, garbage out. You have to be careful what data you are inputting and your reasons for excluding other data. Is there a bias? How do you know? How do you self-check? Who else reviews your work?


I always kinda liked those old colloquialism, they never held much truth nor reality, but they were cute.

Nope; no bias. Self-check is done by automated validation (usually reading data from a database), the data is typically reviewed by who ever owns it. i.e. if I was working with "Y-STR" DNA I would use one of the global databases available like Y-HRD. If astronomical; NASA N-STARS, or one of the databases available (N-Stars is easy to get and relatively current). I don't worry about the validity of the data, only the source.

How do I know? I'm a professional software engineer, with over 40 years in the trenches. But, mostly; I'm a professional.



The "data" says ET may live next door literally...as in "on world".



This is where most people will ask you for evidence. I won't do that however I would ask that you give the "signal path" at how you arrived at that conclusion.


Signal path? How I arrived at that idea: There are 200 billion stars in the Milky Way; 8 billion of them have Earth like planets. I won't pull a "Drake" here and presume that all 8 billion will at some time harbor life like is on Earth. But, we can assign a value to the probability for such life occurring.

This next part may depend somewhat on what you call an "Earth like planet"; so foe me, that is a rocky world with liquid water, decent temperature, etc.

Now; for all we know, every Earth like planet may have advanced complex life (like Earth), they need time to develop and all that. So how about we just steal some stuff from "Drake" to plug in here.

number of planets with life: 0.13
number that develops intelligence: 0.01
number that leave planet: 0.01
number indistinguishable from Terrestrials: .01

equals 0.00000013 * 8000000000 = 1040 possible Human doppelgangers, given that; there is a 1.4857e-7 probability that anyone you meet is ET.

I know that doesn't seem like much, but it is actually huge! That's about the same probability of meeting some from San Francisco randomly on the streets of New York (about 1 chance in 10 million, though ET is slightly better).



Doing the "math" says ET is already here. it also strongly suggests that ET isn't all that advanced. Just being able to cross a few light years doesn't take technology greater than Earth already has.


Um, that IS advanced.


No, its not. Earth, Terrestrial Humans, you; have the same ability and technologies. You simply do not employ them yet.



Well, no female aliens need apply then. Got it.


If that's where your head's at; so be it. I would have thought at your age you'd be a bit more progressive; certainly more so than a retired engineer.



Actually you're wrong, it takes energy. A whole lot of it.

Energy that we perhaps COULD muster but only in the most crude way to get to the stars in trips that would take decades.


I have a friend who does fusion research who might disagree with you. But, that notwithstanding, It is possible to produce all the energy need in a relatively small space; say 10,000 sqft. Though, it would be an "exotic" system doing it, but, not unheard of on Earth. It too used Lorentzian forces to operate.

Magnetic fields pushing / pulling on atomic nuclei, generating abundant electrical energy. It ain't difficult.



Ok, so let us suppose we did this, we mustered the world's total energy output and took off at half the speed of light, went to say, Gliese 581 and found one of their planets inhabited.

You're proposing ETs would then a) set up a base of some sort on their world b) change their biology to look like or project images of themselves to look like the natives and c) fly brightly lit craft through their skies while trying to hide from them at the same time.


Huh??? Where did you get this part? I'm proposing no such a thing.

You don't need that much energy. You could do it with 4 - 6 Aircraft Carrier reactors; that would supply nearly 6 GW. More than enough to push you right up to light speed, where your exploits take effect and "normalize" travel times.



Really? Care to run down to the local Radio Shack and start work on your warp drive or Mr. Fusion? Because your name will go down in history and you will win a Nobel Prize if you do.


Well Radio Shack won't do, but their parent company had a distributer of serous electronic components, and there are of course many others.

And as for "starting"; I have already done some the initial engineering on the drive system, and am in the process of designing a simulator. But, you will need to understand; that since I'm not likely to ever get to use such a device, even if I build it, I'm not too keen on building it.

But, there is the technical challenge.



You really need to remember that Lorentz is you very good friend.



edit on 24-11-2013 by tanka418 because: (no reason given)

edit on 24-11-2013 by tanka418 because: (no reason given)

edit on 24-11-2013 by tanka418 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 24 2013 @ 05:57 PM
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JadeStar; It appears that Occam's Razor can be applied in different ways to the same data. In its strictest application it might define the hearing of voices and/or speaking as if one were occupied by another personality (channeling) as very probable evidence of mental illness, or pretense.
Dr. Tough seems to have taken a broader minded approach. He admitted the tentative, and much less likely possibility that the voices could really be those of extraterrestrials. He then sought to determine if the voices conveyed valid information, unknown to humans.
Dr. Shuch examined a claim that a person had an ET radio transmitter implanted in his body that relayed information to those who implanted it. He did not apply the most likely explanations, that this claim was a paranoid delusion, or a deception. He used scientific equipment to test the much less likely possibility that the person was emitting radio waves, as claimed.
In the case Dr. Brin considered, a similar latitude could have been permitted. This would have granted the possibility that the apparent failure of humans to provide a comparable graphical representation of the Pi ratio, (expressed as relative areas) in the long history of geometry could signify its extraterrestrial origin.
This possibility might have been tested by a exhaustive search of the literature for a similar human geometric production, and by inquiring more closely into the source of this diagram.

edit on 24-11-2013 by Ross 54 because: improved paragraph structure



posted on Nov, 24 2013 @ 06:09 PM
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OK, if aliens form some other world are here on Earth and browsing the net I have a message for them.

First, where ever you do, DO NOT let any humans know that you are here. You will be very sorry if you do.
Second, is there any way I can hitch a ride off this planet? I would even be will to renounce my citizenship to the human race if it would get me off this planet.



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